Independance Referendum

[Exiled AusJag]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been started already, but seeing the report on the news here in Oz last night, I think there is going to be a lot of debate on the subject over the next couple of years.

Despite being born and bred in Scotland I doubt I will have a vote, but for those of you that do, I'm interested in your thoughts.

Also, do you think there will be a large voter turnout, and will the 16 and 17 year olds make a difference.

IMO, such an important decision should encourage as many as possible to vote. We don't have that problem in Oz, as voting is compulsory, and you're fined if you don't vote

[Meister Jag]

Pretty sure we've debated this one to death and I think the Oz voting system also got a wee mention . If it takes off, as it no doubt will, the usual culprits will no doubt be burning their keyboards as the Corries play angrily in the background. From memory, there are a few of the nationalist persuasion on this forum; albeit of differing shades of political opinion.

 

For my part, the devil remains in the detail and I still have to see how independence will help the disadvantaged in our society i.e do the figures add up, can we afford to maintain welfare and fund infrastructure etc. But on a purely political level, it could be a stepping stone towards the creation of a socialist republic. It will be also interesting to see what the Con-Dems try to suggest is Scotland's share of the national debt; this will no doubt be inflated out of all proportion to sway the vote in favour of staying part of the Union. So quite a lot to consider on a one question referendum...

 

Others will no doubt wish to add their tuppence worth.

[Jaggernaut]

Here we go:

 

Meister Jag: how will continued dependence (i.e. on handouts from Westminster) help the disadvantaged, when it clearly has failed to do so to an acceptable level since the formation of the union? Do the UK figures add up, when it's so far in debt that it's generally accepted that the debt will never be cleared in any of our lifetimes? Don't other small countries with similar geographies and populations as ours manage to maintain welfare and fund infrastructure? None of these things is dependent on us being told what we can and cannot do, and what we can get and cannot get, by London.

[Meister Jag]

Here we go:

 

Meister Jag: how will continued dependence (i.e. on handouts from Westminster) help the disadvantaged, when it clearly has failed to do so to an acceptable level since the formation of the union? Do the UK figures add up, when it's so far in debt that it's generally accepted that the debt will never be cleared in any of our lifetimes? Don't other small countries with similar geographies and populations as ours manage to maintain welfare and fund infrastructure? None of these things is dependent on us being told what we can and cannot do, and what we can get and cannot get, by London.

 

Hmm, so the benefit payments will be better under the SNP or should I say in an independent Scotland? I haven't seen the SNP rushing to grab the welfare purse from Westminster. Fact is, for a whole variety of reasons and not of the SNP's doing (before you burst one), the Scottish people have been let down by successive governments. Traditional industries have all but disappeared, our export markets aren't what they once were, we have massive health and welfare problems (largest social work budget in Western Europe if memory serves... now there's a healthy wee nation!) and no hint of a bright economic future on the horizon.

 

But all that said, I'll probably vote in favour of independence. But my main point is will anything be any better or different? I suspect not and have made this point in similar related threads.

 

Way I look at it, Scotland will still be owned and controlled by the few and Salmond will still be forced to go cap in hand to big business to secure crumbs for Scotland's table - as his dealings with Murdoch and Trump have testified. And yes, he did it to secure jobs for Scotland; in this respect I'm not knocking him. But evidence of the same old system in my book.

 

In terms of land ownership, I guess this will still see vast tracts of land being owned by folk domiciled outside of Scotland; oh, but they provide jobs on estates as servants etc. So again, no difference for the guy in the street...

 

In truth, if the SNP can convince me otherwise - and I'm still awaiting sight of figures and plans for how the economy will be controlled - I'll be happy to come back on here and offer profuse apologies to all concerned. In the meantime, I'm a yes, but only because of what might be claimed / realised for the Scottish people in the long run. Nevertheless, I'm into Internationalism not nationalism!

 

The above will no doubt offend and I promise I'm merely trying to add to the discussion; I'm not trolling or at the wind up (I keep that for some others on this forum). Please take this as some stray thoughts fired from the hip... wait until you see some of the sh*** that will be peddled in the press in the build up to decision time.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Meister Jag

[Jaggernaut]

Hmm, so the benefit payments will be better under the SNP or should I say in an independent Scotland? I haven't seen the SNP rushing to grab the welfare purse from Westminster. Fact is, for a whole variety of reasons and not of the SNP's doing (before you burst one), the Scottish people have been let down by successive governments. Traditional industries have all but disappeared, our export markets aren't what they once were, we have massive health and welfare problems (largest social work budget in Western Europe if memory serves... now there's a healthy wee nation!) and no hint of a bright economic future on the horizon.

 

-- Everything you mention above has happened since Scotland has been ruled by Westminster

 

But all that said, I'll probably vote in favour of independence. But my main point is will anything be any better or different? I suspect not and have made this point in similar related threads.

 

--Maybe not. But at least it would be our own fault, not London's. Why deny ourselves and our children even the opportunity to try to do a better job without being reliant on an annual handout?

 

Way I look at it, Scotland will still be owned and controlled by the few and Salmond will still be forced to go cap in hand to big business to secure crumbs for Scotland's table - as his dealings with Murdoch and Trump have testified. And yes, he did it to secure jobs for Scotland; in this respect I'm not knocking him. But evidence of the same old system in my book.

 

--But then you'll agree that that is no reason to believe that we're actually "better together".

 

In terms of land ownership, I guess this will still see vast tracts of land being owned by folk domiciled outside of Scotland; oh, but they provide jobs on estates as servants etc. So again, no difference for the guy in the street...

 

-- See above.

 

In truth, if the SNP can convince me otherwise - and I'm still awaiting sight of figures and plans for how the economy will be controlled - I'll be happy to come back on here and offer profuse apologies to all concerned. In the meantime, I'm a yes, but only because of what might be claimed / realised for the Scottish people in the long run. Nevertheless, I'm into Internationalism not nationalism!

 

--Me too! And this is something that many british nationalists are not, apart from the (London-based) political body who's idea of internationalism amounts to doing what they are told by the USA, and this with the single aim of still having pretensions to be a nuclear-armed power (when all of the power is in fact American).

 

The above will no doubt offend and I promise I'm merely trying to add to the discussion; I'm not trolling or at the wind up (I keep that for some others on this forum). Please take this as some stray thoughts fired from the hip... wait until you see some of the sh*** that will be peddled in the press in the build up to decision time.

 

--No offense in the slightest. It's an excellent contribution to the debate. Wait and see the way this thread goes...!!!

Edited October 17, 2012 by Jaggernaut

[jaggybunnet]

so when does all the info come then?

[Exiled AusJag]

If Scotland gains independance, who will be eligible for citizenship?

 

As it stands, I believe there are different levels of british citizenship and nationality. Children of british citizens born overseas are full citizens, but grandchildren born overseas, who used to get british citizenship, now don't.

 

Would Scottish born british citizens living overseas with dual nationality, british and country of residence, become Scottish citizens, and will the same criteria of Scottish citizenship apply to overseas born children of Scots, who have full british citizenship as well as citizenship of their country of birth.

 

Also, who will be able to vote? Will it be everyone who is resident in Scotland, only those residents who are Scottish born, or born outside Scotland with either one or both parents being born in Scotland. And what about all the Scots who now, like myself, live overseas. Will we be eligible to vote?

 

I have e mailed the Scottish government asking these questions and will be very interested in its reply.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Exiled AusJag

[sigesige00]

Don't vote -- organise!

 

The working class has no choice between 2 bourgeois camps -- defense of the UK or an independent capitalist Scotland. The SSP's slogan of an "independent socialist Scotland" is a sham, because socialist revolution cannot be achieved in a framework of the bourgeois nation states -- we need a worldwide and permanent revolution.

And, with the demise of social democracy (New Labourism) and Stalinism, the era of electoral politics has come to an end. The proletariat must turn away from ballot box now.

In Japan I have been voting in the Vote of Confidence of the Supreme Court in order to say "no" to all judges, but I have been abstaining from all elections, after the degeneration of the New Socialist Party (the NSP was a left-wing split from the old Socialist Party which joined the bourgeois government in 1994).

[Meister Jag]

Don't vote -- organise!

 

The working class has no choice between 2 bourgeois camps -- defense of the UK or an independent capitalist Scotland. The SSP's slogan of an "independent socialist Scotland" is a sham, because socialist revolution cannot be achieved in a framework of the bourgeois nation states -- we need a worldwide and permanent revolution.

And, with the demise of social democracy (New Labourism) and Stalinism, the era of electoral politics has come to an end. The proletariat must turn away from ballot box now.

In Japan I have been voting in the Vote of Confidence of the Supreme Court in order to say "no" to all judges, but I have been abstaining from all elections, after the degeneration of the New Socialist Party (the NSP was a left-wing split from the old Socialist Party which joined the bourgeois government in 1994).

 

Don't vote - organise!!! Organsie what exactly, a raffle, a tea party or a wee swally up the park? WTF are you on about. Independence could take the people of Scotland in any direction they choose. No dictatorship of the proliteriat needed. The gig is that we all get to vote (not sure if that includes you and can only sincerely hope you'll have been sectioned by then - for the good of the working class, nothing personal) and this just might see the people (of Scotland not Japan) taking another step towards a republican socialist Scotland. But if they decide naw, it's not for us, then let's hope what they get is something better than they have just now. So either way, it could be a bit of a win win...

 

I keep banging on about what will be different for the ordinary person; but things could be very different and it will be for the politicians to make and keep their promises. The people of Scotland deserve no less... What don't you understand about this? Cue the angry student blurb about the working class must rise up blah blah blah. So sectarian socialist, IMHO (I know you love working out what what all these informal acronyms mean). Problem is that short of churning out utter pi**, I don't think you know what you are. Are you a nationalist, internationalist, euro communist, or just a total ar** that farts out political rhetoric that makes no sense. With my dialectical head on, I'd say the ar** wins it by a mile.

 

KTF LLAP.

[Meister Jag]

Don't vote - organise!!! Organsie what exactly, a raffle, a tea party or a wee swally up the park? WTF are you on about. Independence could take the people of Scotland in any direction they choose. No dictatorship of the proliteriat needed. The gig is that we all get to vote (not sure if that includes you and can only sincerely hope you'll have been sectioned by then - for the good of the working class, nothing personal) and this just might see the people (of Scotland not Japan) taking another step towards a republican socialist Scotland. But if they decide naw, it's not for us, then let's hope what they get is something better than they have just now. So either way, it could be a bit of a win win...

 

I keep banging on about what will be different for the ordinary person; but things could be very different and it will be for the politicians to make and keep their promises. The people of Scotland deserve no less... What don't you understand about this? Cue the angry student blurb about the working class must rise up blah blah blah. So sectarian socialist, IMHO (I know you love working out what what all these informal acronyms mean). Problem is that short of churning out utter pi**, I don't think you know what you are. Are you a nationalist, internationalist, euro communist, or just a total ar** that farts out political rhetoric that makes no sense. With my dialectical head on, I'd say the ar** wins it by a mile.

 

KTF LLAP.

 

Ooops... sorry guys, bit of a late night

[hamiltonjag]

As it stands I'll be voting no to independence. Before the Natsis get all Braveheart and Bru, my reasoning is simple. I haven't seen the proof that our country would be any better off, worse off, or shades in between. And as time goes on I'm starting to think the lack of any information is part of a deliberate tactic to misinform the electorate (apart from 16 year olds who may be more inclined to buy into the romantic notions spouted by Salmond, the Fat Tartan Power Ranger)

[Jaggernaut]

As it stands I'll be voting no to independence. Before the Natsis get all Braveheart and Bru, my reasoning is simple. I haven't seen the proof that our country would be any better off, worse off, or shades in between. And as time goes on I'm starting to think the lack of any information is part of a deliberate tactic to misinform the electorate (apart from 16 year olds who may be more inclined to buy into the romantic notions spouted by Salmond, the Fat Tartan Power Ranger)

 

Surely you mean all Britannia and Boddingtons. I don't know if you realise it, but your post comes across as one of despair. That we cannot change anything for the better. Do you think that Westminster politicians are concerned about Scotland's future prosperity? I certainly don't, and if we reject the opportunity to get rid of them when the time comes, they will use that to make sure that we are even more impoverished and hence dependent on them.

 

Oh, and why this notion that 16-year-olds are only vulnerable to romanticism about Scottish nationalism? Is there nothing to get romantic about regarding British nationalism and imperialism? If not, then ask yourself why not. And that's in spite of the fact that broadcasting in this country (Scotland) is largely dictated by London.

[hamiltonjag]

Surely you mean all Britannia and Boddingtons. I don't know if you realise it, but your post comes across as one of despair. That we cannot change anything for the better. Do you think that Westminster politicians are concerned about Scotland's future prosperity? I certainly don't, and if we reject the opportunity to get rid of them when the time comes, they will use that to make sure that we are even more impoverished and hence dependent on them.

 

Oh, and why this notion that 16-year-olds are only vulnerable to romanticism about Scottish nationalism? Is there nothing to get romantic about regarding British nationalism and imperialism? If not, then ask yourself why not. And that's in spite of the fact that broadcasting in this country (Scotland) is largely dictated by London.

Aye. Whatever. Show us the figures.

 

It's interesting to see the Nationalist debate now swinging round towards the "scaremongering" side of things "they will use that to make sure that we are even more impoverished and hence dependent on them." oooooh the London/Brussels Bogeyman (delete depending on your line of argument)

 

Just because the Nats want to use romanticised imagery to try to get their weak point across does not mean the others in the debate have to lower themselves

[jaggybunnet]

Surely you mean all Britannia and Boddingtons. I don't know if you realise it, but your post comes across as one of despair. That we cannot change anything for the better. Do you think that Westminster politicians are concerned about Scotland's future prosperity? I certainly don't, and if we reject the opportunity to get rid of them when the time comes, they will use that to make sure that we are even more impoverished and hence dependent on them.

 

Oh, and why this notion that 16-year-olds are only vulnerable to romanticism about Scottish nationalism? Is there nothing to get romantic about regarding British nationalism and imperialism? If not, then ask yourself why not. And that's in spite of the fact that broadcasting in this country (Scotland) is largely dictated by London.

 

then show us all the info please, they must have it all to hand as surely they havent pushed this forward without checking it would work....... would they

[Jaggernaut]

Aye. Whatever. Show us the figures.

 

It's interesting to see the Nationalist debate now swinging round towards the "scaremongering" side of things "they will use that to make sure that we are even more impoverished and hence dependent on them." oooooh the London/Brussels Bogeyman (delete depending on your line of argument)

 

Just because the Nats want to use romanticised imagery to try to get their weak point across does not mean the others in the debate have to lower themselves

 

That's right:

 

The "Nastis".

 

The "Fat Tartan Power Ranger".

 

You really don't want to lower the tone of the debate any more, do you?

 

Show us what figures? Do you believe the figures given the Westminster government who for decades lied about the amount Scotland contributed and got out of the UK sector? Why do you believe them?

[jaggybunnet]

That's right:

 

The "Nastis".

 

The "Fat Tartan Power Ranger".

 

You really don't want to lower the tone of the debate any more, do you?

 

Show us what figures? Do you believe the figures given the Westminster government who for decades lied about the amount Scotland contributed and got out of the UK sector? Why do you believe them?

 

more than ecks...yes

[JeanieD]

Is it not the case that the SNP are already and predictably falling over themselves to be seen as "all things to all people" - the NATO but no nuclear fiasco yesterday was typical of such an approach.

 

The mildly right-of-centre, populist agenda is surely becoming a bit played out. Free this, free that, it's not our fault it's them in London, we didn't say the Celtic Tiger/Iceland thing at all - we want to be just like Norway but without the massive income tax payable in Norway; we want to be in the EU automatically, we want the £ and not the silly Euro currency - all these things are becoming intensely irritating - not a debate but a whine/bleat and a wish list based not on national need but on political greed.

 

I really wish the SNP would be radical, forthright and fight for Scotland instead all I see is a drip drip drip of blame, accusation and a certain amount of wallowing in "victim" status.

[hamiltonjag]

Is it not the case that the SNP are already and predictably falling over themselves to be seen as "all things to all people" - the NATO but no nuclear fiasco yesterday was typical of such an approach.

 

The mildly right-of-centre, populist agenda is surely becoming a bit played out. Free this, free that, it's not our fault it's them in London, we didn't say the Celtic Tiger/Iceland thing at all - we want to be just like Norway but without the massive income tax payable in Norway; we want to be in the EU automatically, we want the £ and not the silly Euro currency - all these things are becoming intensely irritating - not a debate but a whine/bleat and a wish list based not on national need but on political greed.

 

I really wish the SNP would be radical, forthright and fight for Scotland instead all I see is a drip drip drip of blame, accusation and a certain amount of wallowing in "victim" status.

 

You're right but "aff message" as far as the mad Nats are concerned. Sorry if the truth "lowers the tone of the debate" Jaggernaut

[G Jag]

Scotland will do just fine as an independent nation. Ther must be another 11 nations in Europe compared to the old Cold War map i remember at school in the 70's. Most of them are no bigger than Scotland in terms of population, area or natural resources yet have the confidence to stand as independent nations. It's time for Scotland to engender confidence into its population by being an independent nation.

[hamiltonjag]

Scotland will do just fine as an independent nation. Ther must be another 11 nations in Europe compared to the old Cold War map i remember at school in the 70's. Most of them are no bigger than Scotland in terms of population, area or natural resources yet have the confidence to stand as independent nations. It's time for Scotland to engender confidence into its population by being an independent nation.

I agree. Now, the best way to engender any kind of confidence is to show the electorate the sums and the proof that we wouldn't be bankrupt (or at least evidence that we could survive) within the first 10 minutes. Unfortunately all we're seeing from Nationalists is "boo hoo that bad man called me a bad word" and "would you prefer Tories?" which is frankly so poor a debate as to render it almost but not quite Salmond (the artful question-dodger)-esque.

[mrD]

to be honest, im pretty non-plussed about independance question one way or the other. But whenever i hear someone like margret curran talking on question time, makes me want to campaign for independance.

[Jaggernaut]

You're right but "aff message" as far as the mad Nats are concerned. Sorry if the truth "lowers the tone of the debate" Jaggernaut

 

What "truth"? Your opinion? What Cameron and Milliband tell you?

[hamiltonjag]

What "truth"? Your opinion? What Cameron and Milliband tell you?

Even for you that's laughably infantile.

[jaggybunnet]

What "truth"? Your opinion? What Cameron and Milliband tell you?

 

why havent the yesvote/snp put all this info?

 

one of two reasons jump to mind, they dont want us to know or the scary one which is that they havent checked it would work, come on Jaggernaut tell us which one it is.

 

either way its damaging your cause

Edited October 21, 2012 by jaggybunnet

[Jaggernaut]

Even for you that's laughably infantile.

 

Really? Other than call people who want independence a childish name, and calling Alex Salmond an even more childish name, and demanding "figures", and claiming to speak the "truth", you haven't contributed any kind of debate.