jaggybunnet Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 What a shame, Jaggybunnet. No elaborated argument from you; it's almost just "rubbish", "wee Eck" and "not bothered", and so on. You are coming across as a closed-minded individual who point blank refuses to even consider that you or your preferred politicians might be wrong. you must be doing this on purpose now, YOU are indepndance what ever, i want to see the information that SHOULD be out there NOW. we cant debate when there is no information so who is realy closed minded here then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 you must be doing this on purpose now, YOU are indepndance what ever, i want to see the information that SHOULD be out there NOW. we cant debate when there is no information so who is realy closed minded here then? I gave you a link to information presented by Swinney, and your response was: "right then read it, sooooooooo the bad boys did it and ran away but because we are good boys we will sort it for you, we dont as yet have anything to fix it with and cant tell you where we are going to get it but dont worry its sorted." Some debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 I gave you a link to information presented by Swinney, and your response was: "right then read it, sooooooooo the bad boys did it and ran away but because we are good boys we will sort it for you, we dont as yet have anything to fix it with and cant tell you where we are going to get it but dont worry its sorted." Some debate. ok that was a tounge in cheek summary of what was nothing else than snp propaganda. where is the info? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 ok that was a tounge in cheek summary of what was nothing else than snp propaganda. where is the info? I honestly don't know what "info" you mean. What "info" do the "no" campaigners give, which isn't simply british nationalist propaganda? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 I honestly don't know what "info" you mean. What "info" do the "no" campaigners give, which isn't simply british nationalist propaganda? i give up, how is it hard to understand, the snp/yesvote want people to vote for them so surely should tell them how they plan to do it. it not rocket sicence. the no vote can in most cases only react to the snp/yes vote. you are doing a brilliant impression of wee eck and refuseing to answer the questions so i will make it easy for you. do you think that the yesvote/snp should show the people what there plans for an independant scotland are and how they would finance them? a yes or a no will do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 I honestly don't know what "info" you mean. heres a few to start off with. what are your plans for europe and the eu and can you prove that scotland would automaticly be able to join? what currency would we use? what level of taxes would we have to pay (20% as at the moment)? how will scotland pay for all of this? what will scotland do when all the oil finishes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 i give up, how is it hard to understand, the snp/yesvote want people to vote for them so surely should tell them how they plan to do it. it not rocket sicence. the no vote can in most cases only react to the snp/yes vote. you are doing a brilliant impression of wee eck and refuseing to answer the questions so i will make it easy for you. do you think that the yesvote/snp should show the people what there plans for an independant scotland are and how they would finance them? a yes or a no will do Yes. Would you like to know the same about Scotland if it remains governed by England, or are you "not bothered"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 heres a few to start off with. Remember, I'm no expert, but I'd reckon: what are your plans for europe and the eu and can you prove that scotland would automaticly be able to join? --Plans? The plan is definitely to be a member of the EU. So what if it's not automatic? Plenty of countries have had to apply, even your beloved union. Do you think that the EU might somehow not want Scotland? what currency would we use? --The aim appears to be to use the pound; to enter the euro if conditions are right (which has been the position of the UK as well). what level of taxes would we have to pay (20% as at the moment)? --Dunno. What level of taxes will folk in the UK be paying in 2 or 5 years? how will scotland pay for all of this? --All of what? How to run a modern, democratic country, just like every other modern, democratic country in Europe, including several with fewer natural resources than we have? How does the UK pay for maintaining its privileges for the relatively wealthy while the poor remain poor and get relatively even poorer? Well, you probably know that it's by running up astronomical levels of debt. Scotland has only around 5 million people, but lots of resources, both natural and other. what will scotland do when all the oil finishes? --Other resources. What do other modern, democratic economies do without oil? For that matter, what will what's left of the UK do when the oil finishes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigesige00 Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 Don't vote - organise!!! Organsie what exactly, a raffle, a tea party or a wee swally up the park? WTF are you on about. Independence could take the people of Scotland in any direction they choose. No dictatorship of the proliteriat needed. The gig is that we all get to vote (not sure if that includes you and can only sincerely hope you'll have been sectioned by then - for the good of the working class, nothing personal) and this just might see the people (of Scotland not Japan) taking another step towards a republican socialist Scotland. But if they decide naw, it's not for us, then let's hope what they get is something better than they have just now. So either way, it could be a bit of a win win... I keep banging on about what will be different for the ordinary person; but things could be very different and it will be for the politicians to make and keep their promises. The people of Scotland deserve no less... What don't you understand about this? Cue the angry student blurb about the working class must rise up blah blah blah. So sectarian socialist, IMHO (I know you love working out what what all these informal acronyms mean). Problem is that short of churning out utter pi**, I don't think you know what you are. Are you a nationalist, internationalist, euro communist, or just a total ar** that farts out political rhetoric that makes no sense. With my dialectical head on, I'd say the ar** wins it by a mile. KTF LLAP. Organise Class Abstention! And you should understand the worldwide nature of capitalism. Recently many argue about "globalisation", but that is wrong. There is nothing new about "globalisation", since capitalism has been a world phenomenon since the 1st World War. Socialism in one country is impossible. A socialist Scotland will be impossible without a European revolution, and world revolution. Scottish independence is in no sense a working class agenda, who has no "their own" country (Communist Manifesto). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 1st up & I am very much in the undecided camp though if pushed to say today I'd probably go with the 'try something new as can't be any worse than what we have already' camp! Like everyone else though I'll be sick of this in 2 years more than likely but as MrD says, every time I see Margaret Curran on the TV... Anyway from what I've read, here's my take on the quests heres a few to start off with. what are your plans for europe and the eu and can you prove that scotland would automaticly be able to join? The same Europe that the ruling UK self titled Unionist party are unsure they want to be part of & are in process of taking back powers from? what currency would we use? As the ruling UK self titled Unionist party's policy! i.e. Maybes Sterling, maybes Euro. What day is it? what level of taxes would we have to pay (20% as at the moment)? I'd like to know answer to that question also as think in a couple of years under ruling self titled Unionist party we will be paying more than 20%. The quantitive easing by the Bank of England to keep inflation & interest/mortgage rates low will have to be repaid somehow.... how will scotland pay for all of this? That's one question I do want answered along with what proportion of a national debt will be apportioned to Scotland which in turn I guess relates to taxes question. Damned if we do & damned if we don't! what will scotland do when all the oil finishes? Think the whole oil issue is a red herring. Sure we'd be a more prosperous country with than without but no one knows how long the oil will last. 5 years, 10 years, indefinitely. As was mentioned above, how do other modern, economic countries prosper without oil? & also the oil thing is something that affects the Union not just an independent Scotland. I'd be pretty confident as a betting man that Salmond, Swinney & co have the answers to these questions but are waiting for the right time to release them. It's a game of poker & you're not going all-in on your first hand. However it's how many people care enough to listen & even vote after another couple of years of this which may determine the final result! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 1st up & I am very much in the undecided camp though if pushed to say today I'd probably go with the 'try something new as can't be any worse than what we have already' camp! Like everyone else though I'll be sick of this in 2 years more than likely but as MrD says, every time I see Margaret Curran on the TV... Anyway from what I've read, here's my take on the quests I'd be pretty confident as a betting man that Salmond, Swinney & co have the answers to these questions but are waiting for the right time to release them. It's a game of poker & you're not going all-in on your first hand. However it's how many people care enough to listen & even vote after another couple of years of this which may determine the final result! the right time is now so people can make there minds up, any longer and people will think they are hiding things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) the right time is now so people can make there minds up, any longer and people will think they are hiding things I'm interested in finding out the answers also but I'm guessing Salmond & co will wait until closer to the referendum date before releasing these details. Two reasons: 1. Keeps people talking & second guessing until they actually produce the 'master plan' which they, I'm guessing, shocks and astounds everyone and tips the polls, they hope, in their favour . and 2. Salmond didn't win what was an almost impossible overall majority within the Scottish Parliament by not having a few tricks up his sleeves for the right time! Whether the time is the Tories making an @rse of it or his extraordinary economic plan... Guess we'll have to wait & see! Edited October 22, 2012 by Trotter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 I do wish people would stop speaking about the independence campaign as if it is synonymous with Alex Salmond and the SNP. It isn't. The referendum isn't a vote for or against Salmond, it is a vote about Scotland's future. Neither Salmond not any other politician is really important here; the words of politicians should rarely be taken as gospel, IMO. The important thing here is Scotland and the lives of the people who live here. At the moment I intend to vote 'yes' in 2014, because I regard Scotland as an indentifiable nation in its own right and not simply a segment of a contrived political union. I think it is right, morally, that nations are governed by the people who live in them and I firmly believe that there are enough bright, talented people here in Scotland to make it work. The question of finacial viability is almost the wrong one to ask; the 'what's in it for me?' £500 one certainly is. No one can predict for certain how successful a post-independence Scottish economy would be. But by the same token no one can predict for cetain what the Scottish economy would be in if we voted against independence in 2014. In saying that, I think it is well known that Scotland has enviable reserves of natural resources, as well as a tourist industry that is worth billions. Less well known is that we contribute more to the UK treasury in taxes than we recieve back via the Barnett formula. So even based on those very rough outlines I believe that we already have the raw ingredients to thrive as happy, healthy independent little nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 I do wish people would stop speaking about the independence campaign as if it is synonymous with Alex Salmond and the SNP. It isn't. The referendum isn't a vote for or against Salmond, it is a vote about Scotland's future. Neither Salmond not any other politician is really important here; the words of politicians should rarely be taken as gospel, IMO. The important thing here is Scotland and the lives of the people who live here. At the moment I intend to vote 'yes' in 2014, because I regard Scotland as an indentifiable nation in its own right and not simply a segment of a contrived political union. I think it is right, morally, that nations are governed by the people who live in them and I firmly believe that there are enough bright, talented people here in Scotland to make it work. The question of finacial viability is almost the wrong one to ask; the 'what's in it for me?' £500 one certainly is. No one can predict for certain how successful a post-independence Scottish economy would be. But by the same token no one can predict for cetain what the Scottish economy would be in if we voted against independence in 2014. In saying that, I think it is well known that Scotland has enviable reserves of natural resources, as well as a tourist industry that is worth billions. Less well known is that we contribute more to the UK treasury in taxes than we recieve back via the Barnett formula. So even based on those very rough outlines I believe that we already have the raw ingredients to thrive as happy, healthy independent little nation. prove it, where is the evedence weather it be snp or yes vote, (one aand the same as far as i can see), no you cant with any certainty say how the economy will be but they could put out a plan on how they aim to do it, what natural resorces, the oil has to many vairiables and plese tell me you dont include wind or wave energy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 I'm interested in finding out the answers also but I'm guessing Salmond & co will wait until closer to the referendum date before releasing these details. Two reasons: 1. Keeps people talking & second guessing until they actually produce the 'master plan' which they, I'm guessing, shocks and astounds everyone and tips the polls, they hope, in their favour . and 2. Salmond didn't win what was an almost impossible overall majority within the Scottish Parliament by not having a few tricks up his sleeves for the right time! Whether the time is the Tories making an @rse of it or his extraordinary economic plan... Guess we'll have to wait & see! wait and see what? people will turn off if no information is given out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 wait and see what? people will turn off if no information is given out Jagster Quick question: What will you do if there is a "yes" vote. Will you stay and become part of the new nation (isn't really new but I'm sure you know what I mean) or will you up tent pegs and go back to the mother country with your pictures of Maggie & Boris on top of your horse and cart (refugee style)? But why not stay, apparently Balmoral will transfer into private ownership and will be turned into a time share resort. Donald Trump's wig will fly on top of the flag pole where the butcher's apron once limply hung. But in terms of the facts and figures (getting serious for a moment), no politician would want to show their hand at this early stage. This will be like a game of poker and, you can bet that Salmond will be holding a winning hand. I can't see anyone in the "No" campaign being able to take him on; which is actually bad for democracy IMO. We need a decent debate before the "Yes" campaign wins and moves Scotland towards being an independent socialist republic that is free from NATO etc etc. (Just like to add these bits as I know this is your worst nightmare. End of empire, colonialism and occupation.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 Jagster Quick question: What will you do if there is a "yes" vote. Will you stay and become part of the new nation (isn't really new but I'm sure you know what I mean) or will you up tent pegs and go back to the mother country with your pictures of Maggie & Boris on top of your horse and cart (refugee style)? But why not stay, apparently Balmoral will transfer into private ownership and will be turned into a time share resort. Donald Trump's wig will fly on top of the flag pole where the butcher's apron once limply hung. But in terms of the facts and figures (getting serious for a moment), no politician would want to show their hand at this early stage. This will be like a game of poker and, you can bet that Salmond will be holding a winning hand. I can't see anyone in the "No" campaign being able to take him on; which is actually bad for democracy IMO. We need a decent debate before the "Yes" campaign wins and moves Scotland towards being an independent socialist republic that is free from NATO etc etc. (Just like to add these bits as I know this is your worst nightmare. End of empire, colonialism and occupation.) it will never happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 the right time is now so people can make there minds up, any longer and people will think they are hiding things Why does it need to be so immediate? The SNP can do this at any point throughout their government term and they're within their rights to host it when they think it will suit them, they gained the right to do that by gaining a majority at the last election. The reason the Unionists want it so soon isn't because of any impact on the economy like they are suggesting (though it is a clever arguement that may convince people who don't do any reading on those matters to vote against independence), but they'd like the uber-Britishness hangover following the Jubilympics to carry on and influence peoples' voting. Hosting major events like Olympics and World Cups has been shown to influence feelings of 'happiness' and national pride for up to two years. Salmond knows this and has considered this in setting a date. Perhaps even the Commonwealth games could factor in, though the impact of that will be nowhere near as big. It does sound silly but things like this can really sway the vote. I'm quite happy with the time frame, it gives people time to make properly informed choices. There is no need to rush such an important decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Why does it need to be so immediate? The SNP can do this at any point throughout their government term and they're within their rights to host it when they think it will suit them, they gained the right to do that by gaining a majority at the last election. The reason the Unionists want it so soon isn't because of any impact on the economy like they are suggesting (though it is a clever arguement that may convince people who don't do any reading on those matters to vote against independence), but they'd like the uber-Britishness hangover following the Jubilympics to carry on and influence peoples' voting. Hosting major events like Olympics and World Cups has been shown to influence feelings of 'happiness' and national pride for up to two years. Salmond knows this and has considered this in setting a date. Perhaps even the Commonwealth games could factor in, though the impact of that will be nowhere near as big. It does sound silly but things like this can really sway the vote. I'm quite happy with the time frame, it gives people time to make properly informed choices. There is no need to rush such an important decision. How can you with no information? you will get a slap from the yes vote people, this isnt just a snp thing remember........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-R Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) As I said before, if you read around, the timeline suggests a White paper on independence to be released around November 2013. Here's a link I found with some info http://www.scotreferendum.com/consultation/briefing-note/ Edited October 23, 2012 by P-R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 How can you with no information? you will get a slap from the yes vote people, this isnt just a snp thing remember........... There will be information over the course. Would the yes campaign put all their cards on the table right now? No, they'll use it when it has the most impact. Similar to the Labour party not giving too much away at the moment and similarly the Conservatives five years ago in opposition until closer to election time. That's the thing with there being two years, you don't need to make your decision today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 prove it, where is the evedence weather it be snp or yes vote, (one aand the same as far as i can see), no you cant with any certainty say how the economy will be but they could put out a plan on how they aim to do it, what natural resorces, the oil has to many vairiables and plese tell me you dont include wind or wave energy? No, a vote for independence is not a vote for the SNP. Should the majority of the electorate vote in favour of independence in 2014 the plan is for there to be a general election to decide which party will form Scotland's first government. I dare say the SNP will be favourites to win that election but there is no guarantee they will (it is doubtful I would vote for them under those circumstances following their recent change of stance over NATO). In the interests of democracy it would be helpful if all parties standing in Scotland set their stall out and informed the electorate how they would run an independent Scotland if given the mandate to do so, even if they do not necessarily agree with the concept of independence. It shouldn't be solely down to the SNP to come up with all the answers. Of course, no pro-union party will do that for obvious reasons; it wouldn't quite be the equivalent of a turkey voting for Thanksgiving as much as a turkey saying what kind of trimmings it would like to be served with. In a sense, when voting for independence you are voting for a concept as much as anything else. Yes, I was referring to the oil, as well as the gas; two natural resources which have kept the UK economy afloat since the 1970s. There is still oil exploration going on off Scotland's coast to this day as I understand it, and the oil industry continues to be worth billions. However, I accept it would be foolish to go it alone on the back of a fuel-based economy, which is why I referred to other industries as well. In the interests of debate, Jaggybunnet, perhaps you could explain to the likes of myself why you think Scotland would be better off remaining part of the UK? At the moment I would prefer to see us go independent but my mind is far from closed on the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 In the interests of debate, Jaggybunnet, perhaps you could explain to the likes of myself why you think Scotland would be better off remaining part of the UK? At the moment I would prefer to see us go independent but my mind is far from closed on the issue. Excellent question. 'Mon, jaggybunnet. I won't ask you to "prove" the benefits of a "no" vote, though that's what you demand that "yes" voters do. But what exactly are the benefits of remaining a dependency of London? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 In the interests of debate, Jaggybunnet, perhaps you could explain to the likes of myself why you think Scotland would be better off remaining part of the UK? At the moment I would prefer to see us go independent but my mind is far from closed on the issue. I don't think in the present climate that Scotland would be better off, in fact I think worse off and until proved different ( something the snp/yes vote don't seem to want to do) why would I want to vote yes? one of the more important points is being part of the EU, Scotland gets a fair whack of subsidies for the likes of renewable energy programs, we would have to apply to join and that means taking on the euro when they want not when Scotland wants and the thought of the eu deciding our fate is enough in itself for me to vote no. again its very difficult to make up your mind when there is little or no information out there. as far as the yes vote not being snp thats fine but that doesn't mean he wont damage your cause.......anymore than he has already and that's before the sturg gets going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 [/size] I don't think in the present climate that Scotland would be better off, in fact I think worse off and until proved different ( something the snp/yes vote don't seem to want to do) why would I want to vote yes? one of the more important points is being part of the EU, Scotland gets a fair whack of subsidies for the likes of renewable energy programs, we would have to apply to join and that means taking on the euro when they want not when Scotland wants and the thought of the eu deciding our fate is enough in itself for me to vote no. again its very difficult to make up your mind when there is little or no information out there. as far as the yes vote not being snp thats fine but that doesn't mean he wont damage your cause.......anymore than he has already and that's before the sturg gets going. Scotland would not need to apply to the EU as far as I am aware, it would automatically be a member as it would be considered a successor state of the UK. The only way Scotland would have to apply for EU membership is if it was considered to have seceded from, not succeeded the UK, and in that case it would be a new nation and take on no percentage of national debt of the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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