Harry Wragg Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Starting a new thread on league re-construction and quite simple solution !! There are far too many teams in Scotland for our game to be profitable to the clubs outside of the O.F. We currently have 42 teams spread over 4 leagues with a population of just over 5 million. The average attendances are an embarrassment when compared to the crowds in England. The English game has approximately 80 teams in their 4 league set up, playing each other home and away for the season like we used to have up here many years ago. Englands population is 11 times that of Scotland so why do we have as much as half as many clubs ? Would we not have greater quality with fewer professional teams, sourcing the talent from within the country rather than from the EU ? Stronger Junior teams would provide the breeding ground for the natural talent we have always had here in Scotland , so surely a return to a 2 league set up of 18 teams each, on a 2up - 2down basis , dropping the least supported 6 to Junior status and playing 34 league games a season would be the simpler and more effective system all round ? Also a 70/30% share of the gate would pump a bit more money into the less well off clubs who could grow stronger with the extra revenue !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 ... and any team going into administration would have to go into the juniors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Starting a new thread on league re-construction and quite simple solution !! There are far too many teams in Scotland for our game to be profitable to the clubs outside of the O.F. We currently have 42 teams spread over 4 leagues with a population of just over 5 million. The average attendances are an embarrassment when compared to the crowds in England. The English game has approximately 80 teams in their 4 league set up, playing each other home and away for the season like we used to have up here many years ago. Englands population is 11 times that of Scotland so why do we have as much as half as many clubs ? Would we not have greater quality with fewer professional teams, sourcing the talent from within the country rather than from the EU ? Stronger Junior teams would provide the breeding ground for the natural talent we have always had here in Scotland , so surely a return to a 2 league set up of 18 teams each, on a 2up - 2down basis , dropping the least supported 6 to Junior status and playing 34 league games a season would be the simpler and more effective system all round ? Also a 70/30% share of the gate would pump a bit more money into the less well off clubs who could grow stronger with the extra revenue !! You talk good sense at times! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Starting a new thread on league re-construction and quite simple solution !! There are far too many teams in Scotland for our game to be profitable to the clubs outside of the O.F. We currently have 42 teams spread over 4 leagues with a population of just over 5 million. The average attendances are an embarrassment when compared to the crowds in England. The English game has approximately 80 teams in their 4 league set up, playing each other home and away for the season like we used to have up here many years ago. Englands population is 11 times that of Scotland so why do we have as much as half as many clubs ? Would we not have greater quality with fewer professional teams, sourcing the talent from within the country rather than from the EU ? Stronger Junior teams would provide the breeding ground for the natural talent we have always had here in Scotland , so surely a return to a 2 league set up of 18 teams each, on a 2up - 2down basis , dropping the least supported 6 to Junior status and playing 34 league games a season would be the simpler and more effective system all round ? Also a 70/30% share of the gate would pump a bit more money into the less well off clubs who could grow stronger with the extra revenue !! There are 92 clubs in the EPL, Championship, Division 1 and Division 2. There are another 24 clubs in the Conference, most of whom are full-time. We would struggle in the Conference as the standard is higher than our league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Wragg Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 There are 92 clubs in the EPL, Championship, Division 1 and Division 2. There are another 24 clubs in the Conference, most of whom are full-time. We would struggle in the Conference as the standard is higher than our league. Exactly !!! Thanks for the stats correction mate !! Something drastic is needed though and the suggested format isnt any different really than what we already have !!! Playing the same teams 4 times a year is a load of bollocks !!! And the number of foreign players over here is also a disgrace and an insult to our promising youngsters in the Juniour ranks , the powers that be need to wake up and smell the roses !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) Below the Conference (currently the Blue Square Premier), there is the Blue Square North and Blue Square South which have 22 clubs each. The clubs are part-time but the standard is better than, or similar to, our lower leagues. Accrington Stanley, Aldershot and AFC Wimbledon have proved that it is possible to progress from the lowest league to the Football League. The parlous finances of our clubs suggest that only one full-time league is sustainable in the long-term. Below that, there should a be a regional part-time structure as part of a pyramid that includes the juniors. Edited March 2, 2013 by kni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Actually there is something like 10 tiers to the the whole english like set-up (albeit some are split into north and south divisions) so its actually more like 200 teams. I dont know the standard of these lower division or the kind of gates they get but i think the number of teams in our league is the least of our worries. I understand what you are saying but comparing our league to the english has no relevance. We should be comparing ours to countries of similar sizes. Now by saying this i may have back-up up your point because i think a few of them run 18 team leagues but can you imagine Dumbarton in the top league in scotland with a stadium that holds little over a 1000, it would simply make our leagues more of a joke than already is (No disrespect to dumbarton as they are being realistic and showing good sense). I will always think a 16 team top league is the best option for scottish football and after that if its 10-16 or 16-10 i dont think is a big issue. I also think a pyramid structure which allows the top team in the highland league and top team in the juniors come up, maybe with playoffs for another spot. (not quite sure how that would work if all the teams going down were in the central belt for example). Some of the teams in 3rd are dying there simple cos they are sick of playing the same teams year in year out and a fresh approach for them would maybe bring some life back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 The clubs in England's Division 1, Division 2 and Conference play 46 league games in a season. They also play in the League, FA Cup and the Football League Trophy. And we moan about fixture congestion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggyman Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Agree to many clubs in this country, the problem is how to reduce the numbers. I've heard people saying brechin arbroath and forfar should amalgamate for example but why should 3 perfectly well run clubs be made defunct at the expense of say hearts dunfy livvy and dundee. I dont know what the answer is but we do need to reduce the number of clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) Agree to many clubs in this country, the problem is how to reduce the numbers. I've heard people saying brechin arbroath and forfar should amalgamate for example but why should 3 perfectly well run clubs be made defunct at the expense of say hearts dunfy livvy and dundee. I dont know what the answer is but we do need to reduce the number of clubs. You cannot force "smaller" clubs to amalgamate. They could benefit from a regional set-up - more local derbies and less travelling could/should increase crowds and income. Regional leagues could attract more sponsorship from local firms. Such a move would naturally require the support of the clubs and fans. For example, SFL North would comprise Elgin, Peterhead, Arbroath, Forfar, Montrose, Brechin, East Fife, Alloa, Stenhousemuir, Stirling Albion or East Stirling. The SFL South would comprise Stirling Albion/East Stirling, Queen of the South, Annan, Berwick, Stranraer, Ayr, Sevco, Queen's Park, Clyde and Albion Rovers. The 4 clubs in and around Stirling/Falkirk would provide flexibility to deal with promotion and possible relegation (to Highland, East of Scotland and Junior leagues) in a pyramid set-up. Edited March 2, 2013 by kni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G Jag Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Why not start with by merging Glasgow's Christian fundamentalist clubs? They could be called Glasgow Ecumenical.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) Why not start with by merging Glasgow's Christian fundamentalist clubs? They could be called Glasgow Ecumenical.... That's what you call a reformation! Edited March 2, 2013 by kni 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKennan Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 If there are 'too many' senior clubs in Scotland, which ones get to go? The seaside clubs with 500 people at the gate every other week but they're never in financial trouble, or the clubs like Dundee, Livingston, Airdrie ... and Thistle, whose necks haven't been off the chopping block in the past 20 years? If the herd needs thinning, cull the financial weaklings. The suggestion that clubs like Montrose, Brechin, Forfar and the rest are somehow leeching money away from poor wee waifs like Celtic is, frankly, hilarious. I assume this is not what's being suggested. The teams per head of population ratio is important how? Do we include Junior level teams in this as well? East of Scotland? The south? What if the panacea suggested in the OP came about and Scotland's senior leagues were 20 strong instead of 42? Would football suddenly improve? Would fans flood in? Would players of a higher calibre flood into the Scottish game? Wasn't this what the SPL was supposed to be about? Not been a boon for Thistle, has it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Wragg Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 If there are 'too many' senior clubs in Scotland, which ones get to go? The seaside clubs with 500 people at the gate every other week but they're never in financial trouble, or the clubs like Dundee, Livingston, Airdrie ... and Thistle, whose necks haven't been off the chopping block in the past 20 years? If the herd needs thinning, cull the financial weaklings. The suggestion that clubs like Montrose, Brechin, Forfar and the rest are somehow leeching money away from poor wee waifs like Celtic is, frankly, hilarious. I assume this is not what's being suggested. The teams per head of population ratio is important how? Do we include Junior level teams in this as well? East of Scotland? The south? What if the panacea suggested in the OP came about and Scotland's senior leagues were 20 strong instead of 42? Would football suddenly improve? Would fans flood in? Would players of a higher calibre flood into the Scottish game? Wasn't this what the SPL was supposed to be about? Not been a boon for Thistle, has it? not suggesting any sort of " leeching" and dont know how you ever thought that !! the SPL was created to protect the top echelon here for the big money involved in TV payments and it has only caused destruction for the greedy cats who spent the banks money in order to stay there and I've suggested a 70/30 % split in gate receipts inorder to help the smaller teams build their business and provide the guidance our vast pool of natural talent needs in order to get our national side going again coz despite what our english cousins derisively say about us , we do have natural talent here its just not getting a chance thanks to the short sightedness of the bigwigs here who have proved that they couldnt organise a piss up in a brewery !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 If there are 'too many' senior clubs in Scotland, which ones get to go? The seaside clubs with 500 people at the gate every other week but they're never in financial trouble, or the clubs like Dundee, Livingston, Airdrie ... and Thistle, whose necks haven't been off the chopping block in the past 20 years? If the herd needs thinning, cull the financial weaklings. The suggestion that clubs like Montrose, Brechin, Forfar and the rest are somehow leeching money away from poor wee waifs like Celtic is, frankly, hilarious. I assume this is not what's being suggested. The teams per head of population ratio is important how? Do we include Junior level teams in this as well? East of Scotland? The south? What if the panacea suggested in the OP came about and Scotland's senior leagues were 20 strong instead of 42? Would football suddenly improve? Would fans flood in? Would players of a higher calibre flood into the Scottish game? Wasn't this what the SPL was supposed to be about? Not been a boon for Thistle, has it? We don't need any culls, just financial fair play rules and fair allocation of income from television, radio etc. Crowds were much bigger when we had two divisions. Not everyone wants to visit away grounds twice in one season. They don't do it in England where there are leagues with 24 clubs. Norway, with a population similar to ours, has a 16 club Premier League with a 30 game season. It's first division also comprises 16 clubs. Denmark, again with a similar population, has a 12 club top league with the clubs playing each other 3 times. Denmark's first division has 14 clubs with two East and West leagues of 16 clubs below it. They play each other twice in a season. Denmark is ranked 15th Europe, Scotland is 24th and Norway is 27th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 We don't need any culls, just financial fair play rules and fair allocation of income from television, radio etc. Crowds were much bigger when we had two divisions. Not everyone wants to visit away grounds twice in one season. They don't do it in England where there are leagues with 24 clubs. Norway, with a population similar to ours, has a 16 club Premier League with a 30 game season. It's first division also comprises 16 clubs. Denmark, again with a similar population, has a 12 club top league with the clubs playing each other 3 times. Denmark's first division has 14 clubs with two East and West leagues of 16 clubs below it. They play each other twice in a season. Denmark is ranked 15th Europe, Scotland is 24th and Norway is 27th. It also has a 3rd division split in 4 groups (Regional) each with 14 teams in, and these teams are all part time players (Paid on a par with our 3rd division), below these groups there are more pyramids and you can effectively take a team from the 8th or 9th division to the tippileague (A local bar owner here took a team from the 5th to within a grasp of a top tier place, and kept the crowds biggish by supplying free beer, which all had to stop once the team got to the 2nd tier). The attendances in the tippileague for the 16 teams are actually on a par with the top 16 in Scotland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Starting a new thread on league re-construction and quite simple solution !! There are far too many teams in Scotland for our game to be profitable to the clubs outside of the O.F. We currently have 42 teams spread over 4 leagues with a population of just over 5 million. The average attendances are an embarrassment when compared to the crowds in England. The English game has approximately 80 teams in their 4 league set up, playing each other home and away for the season like we used to have up here many years ago. Englands population is 11 times that of Scotland so why do we have as much as half as many clubs ? Would we not have greater quality with fewer professional teams, sourcing the talent from within the country rather than from the EU ? Stronger Junior teams would provide the breeding ground for the natural talent we have always had here in Scotland , so surely a return to a 2 league set up of 18 teams each, on a 2up - 2down basis , dropping the least supported 6 to Junior status and playing 34 league games a season would be the simpler and more effective system all round ? Also a 70/30% share of the gate would pump a bit more money into the less well off clubs who could grow stronger with the extra revenue !! I always hate this comparison. We have roughly 20 professional full time teams. England's top four leagues contain 92 teams, but even the conference has full time teams in it. That's more than 10 times the number of professional teams Scotland has. Looking at the whole English system, there are 17 levels to the FA pyramid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 I always hate this comparison. We have roughly 20 professional full time teams. England's top four leagues contain 92 teams, but even the conference has full time teams in it. That's more than 10 times the number of professional teams Scotland has. Looking at the whole English system, there are 17 levels to the FA pyramid. League Two and the top of The Conference (Blue Square Premier) are similar to our league in both standard and crowds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 League Two and the top of The Conference (Blue Square Premier) are similar to our league in both standard and crowds. Not too sure about league two after i heard during the league cup final in england that most of the bradford players are on £1,500 a week and they made them out to be poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Not too sure about league two after i heard during the league cup final in england that most of the bradford players are on £1,500 a week and they made them out to be poor. League Two clubs get good television money. The BBC's Football League programme, after Match Of The Day, is quite popular because it has all the goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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