One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.

[kni]

You didn't answer my question about your dream scenario: your dream is to have an independent Scotland that is not "under control" of the EU, but now you are advocating that an independent Scotland might find itself excluded from EU, and that is a reason to vote "no."

 

You'll forgive me if I see more than a tad of incoherence in your posts.

 

Where have I advocated voting no? I have said that I am now undecided. Your diversionary tactics are obvious and pathetic.

 

I was de-bunking Avery's nonsensical garbage which you used to support your argument. There is no way that an independent Scotland can take advantage of "internal enlargement" via Article 48.

Edited August 12, 2014 by kni

[Jaggernaut]

If this is genuinely from the YES campaign then it's lies as we have 2 in Stavanger alone run by the Salvation Army

 

Norgethistle, if the two "foodbanks" that you cite as an example are indeed run by the Salvation Army, I wonder if they are really foodbanks of the type that are springing up all over the UK. The Salvation Army all over the world runs many food stalls and outlets to feed homeless people, those out late at night etc. These are not to be confused with foodbanks where parents of families on insufficient income go to collect enough provisions to feed those families adequately throughout the day and every day.

[Norgethistle]

Norgethistle, if the two "foodbanks" that you cite as an example are indeed run by the Salvation Army, I wonder if they are really foodbanks of the type that are springing up all over the UK. The Salvation Army all over the world runs many food stalls and outlets to feed homeless people, those out late at night etc. These are not to be confused with foodbanks where parents of families on insufficient income go to collect enough provisions to feed those families adequately throughout the day and every day.

 

Its a place where families (Not just homeless) can go in any day (apart from a sunday) and get an emergency food parcel (not a bowl of soup) made up from donations from the public or shops. They are food banks.

Even the shining light of socialism that is Norway has families below the poverty line who can't make ends meet.

[Jaggernaut]

Where have I advocated voting no? I have said that I am now undecided. Your diversionary tactics are obvious and pathetic.

 

I was de-bunking Avery's nonsensical garbage which you used to support your argument. There is no way that an independent Scotland can take advantage of "internal enlargement" via Article 48.

 

Kni, you don't half come across as arrogant. People who state opinions that aren't yours, even if they are highly knowledgeable people, are stating "nonsensical garbage" or some other such vitriolic description. I took a look back over some of your posts in this thread, and to be fair, you do question a few "no" campaign points too. However, your insults about Alex Salmond and the SNP are highly reminiscent of the denigratory tactics of unionists of the type who post on the so-called "Scotsman" newspaper forum. That makes me believe that, in spite of your claim to be "undecided," that you are in fact a "no" voter (maybe you're not yet fully aware of it!).

[greg]

Your head in still in the proverbial sand. Why do you think that anyone should believe Avery more than Van Rumpuy and Barroso?

 

Where are the legal opinions that say that Article 48 can be used for internal enlargement via qualified majority voting?

where are the legal arguments that say it can't - remember this is a unique case scenario

[greg]

Just a little snippet from Forbes, note the words "it’s not entirely certain that the new Scotland would actually be in the European Union. Legally it appears not although a kludge to allow it to be seems the most likely outcome. -

One of the interesting little arguments over the coming Scottish vote on independence from the UK is the question of what currency a newly independent Scotland would use. A new Scottish pound may or may not be a good idea and there’s a certain problem with using the euro: it’s not entirely certain that the new Scotland would actually be in the European Union. Legally it appears not although a kludge to allow it to be seems the most likely outcome. That’s aside from whether using the euro would be a good idea or not: the answer there being probably not.

That leaves the country with the third option, continued use of the pound sterling. Down in London the politicians are shouting loudly that of course they wouldn’t permit such use. Mostly in an attempt to swing the vote against independence it has to be said. From the Tory side simply because they’ve historically been the Conservative and Unionist party and thus they wish to preserve said union, from the Labour side because they know that without their rock solid Scottish seats at Westminster they’d find it very hard to ever gain a governing majority again. There really are seats up there where they would elect a dead donkey if it wore a red rosette: we know this because there have been Scottish Labour MPs indistinguishable from dead donkeys, in intellect if not necessarily appearance.

So that’s why the spreading of fear, uncertainty and doubt over the question of the currency. But Alex Salmond (however grating it is to agree with the Wee Eck) is entirely correct here when he says that no one can actually stop Scotland from using the pound sterling if it so wishes to:

[Norgethistle]

Just a little snippet from Forbes, note the words "it’s not entirely certain that the new Scotland would actually be in the European Union. Legally it appears not although a kludge to allow it to be seems the most likely outcome. -

One of the interesting little arguments over the coming Scottish vote on independence from the UK is the question of what currency a newly independent Scotland would use. A new Scottish pound may or may not be a good idea and there’s a certain problem with using the euro: it’s not entirely certain that the new Scotland would actually be in the European Union. Legally it appears not although a kludge to allow it to be seems the most likely outcome. That’s aside from whether using the euro would be a good idea or not: the answer there being probably not.

That leaves the country with the third option, continued use of the pound sterling. Down in London the politicians are shouting loudly that of course they wouldn’t permit such use. Mostly in an attempt to swing the vote against independence it has to be said. From the Tory side simply because they’ve historically been the Conservative and Unionist party and thus they wish to preserve said union, from the Labour side because they know that without their rock solid Scottish seats at Westminster they’d find it very hard to ever gain a governing majority again. There really are seats up there where they would elect a dead donkey if it wore a red rosette: we know this because there have been Scottish Labour MPs indistinguishable from dead donkeys, in intellect if not necessarily appearance.

So that’s why the spreading of fear, uncertainty and doubt over the question of the currency. But Alex Salmond (however grating it is to agree with the Wee Eck) is entirely correct here when he says that no one can actually stop Scotland from using the pound sterling if it so wishes to:

 

Yes he is correct no one can stop him using the pound sterling, the issue is that the banks and financial institutions would have no lender of last resort this would cause them to re-evaluate where they want to be based whether in Scotland with no one to bail them out in worse case scenario or re-locate to rUK with the Bank of England as the safe guard, with financial instituations moving south would further weaken the economy causing less stability, not to mention transfer rates of cross border transactions, in adition the strength or weakness of the currency would be determined by the rest of the UK's actions (Interest rate settings, borrowing etc) not Scotlands causing massive issues for cross border trade.

[Jaggernaut]

I'd like to thank yon Australian dude for increasing the YES vote even more.

[Norgethistle]

I'd like to thank yon Australian dude for increasing the YES vote even more.

 

You need every help you can

[The Devil's Point]

I thought eyebrows beat satellite dish face hands down in the last debate.

 

Lets admit it, plan B is to go back to how it was like when we were young. We will trade in empty ginger bottles.

[Guy Incognito]

I'd like to thank yon Australian dude for increasing the YES vote even more.

 

Aye, it was a strange intervention that one. Mr Abbott's own country doesn't appear to have done too badly out of independence. In fact, it has been such a success that people continue to migrate there in their droves, including many folk from this country.

 

Mind you, when the UK works so well that lots and lots of people choose to leave for Australia each year then perhaps it isn't so surprising that Mr Abbott would rather things remain the way they are over here.

[Jaggernaut]

Aye, it was a strange intervention that one. Mr Abbott's own country doesn't appear to have done too badly out of independence. In fact, it has been such a success that people continue to migrate there in their droves, including many folk from this country.

 

Mind you, when the UK works so well that lots and lots of people choose to leave for Australia each year then perhaps it isn't so surprising that Mr Abbott would rather things remain the way they are over here.

 

I read that 10% of all people born in the UK emigrate. I wonder how that compares with other developed countries.

[kni]

Aye, it was a strange intervention that one. Mr Abbott's own country doesn't appear to have done too badly out of independence. In fact, it has been such a success that people continue to migrate there in their droves, including many folk from this country.

 

Mind you, when the UK works so well that lots and lots of people choose to leave for Australia each year then perhaps it isn't so surprising that Mr Abbott would rather things remain the way they are over here.

 

Australia is not in the EU and therefore has control over its own trade, courts and borders (immigration). The SNP wants to give those vital controls back to the EU if Scotland votes yes. Australia has real independence, not the phoney version that Salmond is offering us. Perhaps that why so many Britons, including my nephew, have emigrated there.

Edited August 18, 2014 by kni

[Guy Incognito]

Australia is not in the EU and therefore has control over its own trade, courts and borders (immigration). The SNP wants to give those vital controls back to the EU if Scotland votes yes. Australia has real independence, not the phoney version that Salmond is offering us. Perhaps that why so many Britons, including my nephew, have emigrated there.

 

 

Jeezo man, you're obsessed!

Edited August 18, 2014 by Guy Incognito

[kni]

 

Jeezo man, you're obsessed!

 

Not at all. Australia has a very tough immigration rules that are strictly enforced. As a result, Australia (unlike Britain), can control its health and welfare costs more effectively.

[Norgethistle]

Now we have a new declaration of Arbroath to be signed, half expecting Salmond to sail ashore to Skye on the day of the vote in a wee boat dressed like bonny prince Charlie to drum up more heart wrenching nostalgic memories

[The Devil's Point]

I'm actually getting worried about what this is going to do. One way or another, about half of Scotland is going to be frustrated on 19th September.

 

I am a definite No voter, but I will accept the result if we lose and will try and work with it.

 

People should resolve not to become angry or bitter whatever way it goes.

[Jaggernaut]

Now we have a new declaration of Arbroath to be signed, half expecting Salmond to sail ashore to Skye on the day of the vote in a wee boat dressed like bonny prince Charlie to drum up more heart wrenching nostalgic memories

 

Ah yes; insult Salmond. Great argument.

[Jaggernaut]

I'm actually getting worried about what this is going to do. One way or another, about half of Scotland is going to be frustrated on 19th September.

 

I am a definite No voter, but I will accept the result if we lose and will try and work with it.

 

People should resolve not to become angry or bitter whatever way it goes.

 

Agreed. I'm a definite YES voter, and will be truly disappointed if Scots fail to take this once-in-a-generation opportunity to get free of stifling Westminster control. But if "no" prevails, then the struggle will continue for the next referendum...... although of course Westminster might well take action to make that an impossibility. If Westminster did ban the possibility of a future referendum for Scots, how would you feel about that?

 

Edited: Sorry for late edit.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[Norgethistle]

Agreed. I'm a definite YES voter, and will be truly disappointed if Scots fail to take this once-in-a-generation opportunity to get free of stifling Westminster control. But if "no" prevails, then the struggle will continue for the next referendum...... although of course Westminster might well take action to make that an impossibility. If Westminster did ban the possibility of a future referendum for Scots, how would you feel about that?

 

Edited: Sorry for late edit.

 

If there was a yes vote would the Scottish parliament allow another referendum in say 10 years to overturn it?

Can't keep going to the poling station in the hope that one day maybe due to low turnout it will go through, the instability that will bring to the country will be devastating

[Jaggernaut]

If there was a yes vote would the Scottish parliament allow another referendum in say 10 years to overturn it?

Can't keep going to the poling station in the hope that one day maybe due to low turnout it will go through, the instability that will bring to the country will be devastating

 

I've never heard of an independent country having a referendum to vote for being controlled by another country.... have you heard of one? There certainly wasn't one that resulted in Scotland being incorporated into "Greater England."

 

ETA: From your post it seems that you would be glad for Scotland's aspirations to become a normal independent state to be crushed once and for all. Is that right?

Edited August 19, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[Norgethistle]

I've never heard of an independent country having a referendum to vote for being controlled by another country.... have you heard of one? There certainly wasn't one that resulted in Scotland being incorporated into "Greater England." ETA: From your post it seems that you would be glad for Scotland's aspirations to become a normal independent state to be crushed once and for all. Is that right?

 

If Scotland decides that we should stay in the UK then we go with the majority, thats democracy, what you are asking for with a new vote in a few years is going with the minority, thats not democracy. If it is a NO vote then the public and the majority of the population do not want to leave, and that should be the end of the matter.

[kni]

I've never heard of an independent country having a referendum to vote for being controlled by another country.... have you heard of one? There certainly wasn't one that resulted in Scotland being incorporated into "Greater England."

 

ETA: From your post it seems that you would be glad for Scotland's aspirations to become a normal independent state to be crushed once and for all. Is that right?

 

Britain in 1975 to confirm that it should be "incorporated" into the the "Greater Europe" after joining the EC in 1973?

Edited August 19, 2014 by kni

[The Devil's Point]

I think it would be a total nonsense to have another referendum. It is way too expensive, time consuming and takes up too much headspace.

 

Lets settle it once and for all with this one. I will accept the result however it goes.

 

With a superb Thistle side and intense politics, I reckon the next month will end up proving to be the most memorable of my life.

[DublinMagyar]

Yes.......so I can come home.