One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Fergus Ewing MSP, who is Scotland’s Energy Minister, has welcomed comments from the former President of the Wood Group in the Americas, Derek Blackwood, who has highlighted the potential for Scotland of developing offshore unconventional oil and gas as set out in a new report by the business organisation N-56 - which shows that there are at least 21 billion barrels of unconventional oil and gas under the North Sea.

 

As reported in today’s Scottish Sun Mr Blackwood said:

 

“The information provided appears to me to be impressive. I fully expect that as we drill more wells we will increase our projections of recoverable hydrocarbons similar to the USA and I think the term "game changer" is likely to be very appropriate to the UK North Sea story.”

 

Commenting Mr Ewing said:

 

“These comments from a very senior industry figure shows the strong enthusiasm and possibilities which remain for Scotland’s oil and gas sector.

 

“Scotland has decades of oil and gas reserves remaining, massive resources which will be developed by an industry which is world leading, and we are hearing of huge new potential both west of Shetland and in terms of offshore unconventional oil and gas.

 

“As with all such developments we have to ensure that the appropriate environmental regulation is in place and Scotland is rightly taking a cautious, considered and evidenced-based approach to onshore unconventional oil and gas.

 

“What is crucial is that Scotland has the powers of independence to ensure that it is the people of Scotland that benefit from the riches of the North Sea – not the Westminster Treasury that squanders them.”

[Guy Incognito]

The establishment are shiting themselves now.

 

They are, and it makes me wonder why. So far we have had one poll showing Yes just one point in front and another due tomorrow which has Yes and No level pegging. Both results are well within the margin for error, and even if they are accurate the Yes lead isn't so great that a cheeky wee bit of gerrymandering here and there won't claw it back.

 

So unless the No camp have been paying close attention to our own excellent wee poll it makes we wonder why they are panicking so. Maybe they know something we don't.

 

 

 

Sorry Norge, you’re completely wrong.

 

There’s never been a bill on Shetlands independence.

 

The link you refer to was merely an “online petition”.

 

The petition idea came from Catriona Murray in Stornoway and Malcolm Lamont in Lerwick, two mysterious individuals who have told the media they are only contactable by email.

 

The petition seeks three independence referendums – one for the Western Isles, one for the Shetland Isles and one for the Orkney Isles.

You don’t even have to live in any of these places to add your electronic signature.

 

Signatures have been gathered from every corner of the globe stretching all the way to New Zealand.

 

The petition total for all three islands?

 

1,137.

 

If there’s an appetite for Shetland independence – which doesn’t seem likely in view of the numbers on that petition – then they should create a political party and vote for it.

 

Meantime, an electronic petition from two jumpers in a Lighthouse is hardly going to cut the mustard.

 

Aside from that, how are they supposed to negotiate independence from a country which isn't even independent itself?

 

Cart before the horse springs to mind.

 

Near Firhill is the key part - people are free to do want they want (within the confines of the law) up and down Maryhill Road but what I meant was actually in the stadium or the areas that the club is responsible for. Lets be honest the only people who you should have to put with are the 50/50 sellers (what a shameless plug but everyone is campaigning these days).

 

Fair comment.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Guy Incognito

[Norgethistle]

 

 

 

Aside from that, how are they supposed to negotiate independence from a country which isn't even independent itself?

 

Cart before the horse springs to mind.

 

 

 

 

The "Petition" was based that if there was a YES vote then the Islands wanted their own referendum, which seems fair to me

[Jaggernaut]

The "Petition" was based that if there was a YES vote then the Islands wanted their own referendum, which seems fair to me

 

Norgethistle: You described a dodgy, minuscule, unregulated online petition as a "bill" that was rejected in the Scottish Parliament. Did you make a genuine mistake, or was it a deliberate piece of myth-making by you in another attempt to deny Scottish independence?

[Norgethistle]

 

 

Norgethistle: You described a dodgy, minuscule, unregulated online petition as a "bill" that was rejected in the Scottish Parliament. Did you make a genuine mistake, or was it a deliberate piece of myth-making by you in another attempt to deny Scottish independence?

 

It was passed to me by a friend who lives on Shetland, no one is trying to deny, folk are trying to debate and make reasoned judgement

[Jaggernaut]

It was passed to me by a friend who lives on Shetland, no one is trying to deny, folk are trying to debate and make reasoned judgement

 

Folk will indeed make reasoned judgements, after seeing what is put forward as "evidence" by people on both sides of the debate.

[Guy Incognito]

The "Petition" was based that if there was a YES vote then the Islands wanted their own referendum, which seems fair to me

 

Ah, okay. Presumably they are backing Yes then?

[The Jukebox Rebel]

I would imagine that the Western Isles will certainly be voting Yes.

 

What with them already having returned SNP at both Holyrood and Westminster and all.

 

I imagine they're also quite chuffed at being championed by the National Party, what with the presence of Gaelic at its highest level in years.

 

In fact, every single island off the west coast is painted Yellow, as is every single constituency in the Highlands.

 

Rural Scotland's voice is one of the main contributing factors towards the holding of this very referendum. They delivered their mandate loud and clear in 2011.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

What I don't get is that Westminster has admitted to deceiving and lying to Scotland for decades, and yet still some people want to vote for more of the same...

 

I was pondering this thought and came to the conclusion that it’s all a question of impact reporting. Take the MP Expenses scandal. Universally slammed and condemned – no mercy. Exactly the way it should be. There’s no way that could pass folk by.

 

When it came to something like the North Sea Oil cover up – marginal column entries. Maybe the odd one-day-wonder headline. It’s quite simply deemed “not in the public interest” by some BBC suit and kept as low-key as they can possibly get away with.

 

Little bit of spin and before you know it Joe Bloggs, oblivious to the depths, consequences and magnitude of the deceit, mirrors the softened impact with a comment like “they’re all at it” or some-such vague or non-clued remark.

 

Mind you, it’s conceivable that the cover up may have robbed Scotland to the tune of £250 billion. You’d have to admit – it was a very tempting loot. And a political masterstroke which denied the ’79 referendum a winning hand.

 

Please forgive me for reproducing the cover up here but I do like to re-read these things and get my facts right before I speak to people. Seeing it in black and white helps me - and Team Britain Media Inc. are extremely unlikely to be running a feature anytime soon:

 

On 27 March 1997, the Herald newspaper reported:

 

“Mr William Waldegrave, Chief Secretary to the Treasury, has been forced to concede figures in Commons questioning in recent months, which show that if Scotland’s share of North Sea revenues had been allocated since 1979, then the net flow in favour of the Treasury from north of the Border ran to £27bn.”

 

The Herald went on in the same article to note that Mr Waldegrave (the 1997 ministerial equivalent of Danny Alexander) later admitted to the House that the real figure was even higher, at £31 billion over the 18-year period.

 

The extent of Scotland’s wealth after the discovery of North Sea oil in the 1970s was so great that successive Labour and Conservative governments hid it from the Scottish people for three decades. When a 1975 analysis for the UK government by economist Professor Gavin McCrone was finally made public in 2005 after a Freedom Of Information request, The Independent newspaper reported:

 

"An independent Scotland’s budget surpluses as a result of the oil boom, wrote Professor McCrone, would be so large as to be ‘embarrassing’.

 

Scotland’s currency ‘would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian Kronor.’ From being poorer than their southern neighbours, Scots would quite possibly become richer. Scotland would be in a position to lend heavily to England and ‘this situation could last for a very long time into the future."

 

In short, the oil would put the British boot, after centuries of resentment, firmly on the foot standing north of the border.

 

Within days of its receipt at Westminster in 1974, Professor McCrone’s document was judged as incendiary and classified as secret. It would be sat upon for the next thirty years.”

 

The pro-Union economist Professor Brian Ashcroft (husband of former Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander) calculated in July 2013 that had Scotland been independent since 1981, it would by now have an accumulated basic budget surplus of at least £68 billion. The real figure, including interest and other benefits, would likely be an “oil fund” of well over £100 billion.

 

But instead of that huge surplus, Scotland is part of a UK with a massive £1.4 trillion debt - our population share of the debt is approximately £118 billion.

 

In short, membership of the UK for the last 32 years has left Scotland anywhere from £180 billion to £250 billion worse off than it would have been as an independent country. Thanks to Westminster we’re massively in debt, where we should have had money in the bank.

 

We simply cannot afford to be repeating this sad story in 32 years time.

 

We can begin to put these wrongs to right on 18^th September.

 

Only a YES vote can address the misappropriation of Scotland’s wealth.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

The latest deception is the completely confused and ambiguous messages (a blatant infringement of the Edinburgh Agreement) about "new powers", an "agreed timetable" for "expansion of existing powers" etc. etc. What they mean is the SG can raise income tax, while Barnett will be slashed. That is not power in any sense, and people will be even more disgusted at this latest attempt at bribery and deception. The "no" camp has scored own goal after own goal after own goal. But the best boost for YES is probably still to come, when Farage and the flute band bigots descend on Edinburgh.

 

Jaggernaut,

 

I dunno if you’re still oot in the east or whit, but if you are, you probably missed Gordon Brown’s “epic” (PMSL) address to the nation re the above. Extended Reporting Scotland for a full hour, of which 50 whole BBC primetime minutes were given over to Labour for what was essentially a party political broadcast, with GB pacing up and down like a constipated tiger in a cage.

 

Quite apart from the fact that Labour's brand of Devo Max will rob Scotland blind it really was disgraceful that this was considered news. EVERY single “new offer” has already been set out by Labour away back in March. So how the **** can this be deemed worthy of 50 minutes BBC primetime just 10 days before the polling stations open?

 

Totally stinks.

 

Same goes for the Daily Record who, predictably, give the whole sorry affair front page status.

 

Do these people think we’re mugs?

Edited September 9, 2014 by The Jukebox Rebel

[Norgethistle]

The governor of the Bank of England has stated today that there will be no currency union, so what's the plan B then?

[jaggybunnet]

The governor of the Bank of England has stated today that there will be no currency union, so what's the plan B then?

 

also this http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_European_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf

[Norgethistle]

 

 

also this http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_European_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf

 

He kept that quiet

[P-R]

The governor of the Bank of England has stated today that there will be no currency union, so what's the plan B then?

To me he was only repeating the line of what various people at Westminster have been saying at approx 49:15 seconds into the following clip, he expressed "In that context (with regards to Westminster parties positions) a currency union is incompatible with sovereignty" so hardly anything new there.

 

http://streamstudio.world-television.com/CCUIv3/frameset.aspx?ticket=117-1126-14786&target=en-default-&status=ondemand&browser=ns-0-0-0-14-0&stream=flash-video-500

 

And some politicians definition of "No" seems to vary -

 

Then - http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/no-further-tax-powers-for-scotland-says-david-cameron-1-2084365

 

Now - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10870140/David-Cameron-promises-early-deal-on-income-tax-powers-for-Scotland.html

[i@n]

I see old Davie boy is coming up to plead with us to stay.

[P-R]

also this http://www.scottish....h_2014__pdf.pdf

Does anyone know the full story regards EU membership, is it really black & white - maybe there's some truth on both sides. Personally I'd take my chances on an independent Scotland in Europe as I can't see the UK being there.

 

http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/better-togethers-european-boomerang.html

[Jaggernaut]

Westminster has admitted to lying and deceiving Scotland about Scotland's wealth for decades. And yet some people still want to vote for them for more of the same treatment.

[Norgethistle]

Westminster has admitted to lying and deceiving Scotland about Scotland's wealth for decades. And yet some people still want to vote for them for more of the same treatment.

 

Has Salmond not been deceiving Scotland by stating that a currency union and membership to the EU are guaranteed, where in fact they are far from it?

 

All politicians will lie to keep themselves in a job for 4 more years

[Jaggernaut]

Has Salmond not been deceiving Scotland by stating that a currency union and membership to the EU are guaranteed, where in fact they are far from it?

 

All politicians will lie to keep themselves in a job for 4 more years

 

Has Salmond used the word "guaranteed" in these contexts? Or are you at it again?

[kni]

Does anyone know the full story regards EU membership, is it really black & white - maybe there's some truth on both sides. Personally I'd take my chances on an independent Scotland in Europe as I can't see the UK being there. http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/better-togethers-european-boomerang.html

 

Viviane Reding's letter simply states the position in black and white. The Treaty on European Union (aka The Lisbon Treaty), referred to in the letter, is in black and white. It confirms the statements made by Herman Van Rompuy, President of the EU Council (which votes on enlargement applications) and the past and current Presidents of the European Commission.

 

Why can't the SNP and Yes campaign accept those clear statements? An independent Scotland will leave the EU on "independence day" and have to re-apply for membership. Why have they not even set out a plan B? The contrarian opinions of a few academics ( touted by Jaggernaut earlier on this thread) are wrong and, in the context of those statements by the most powerful EU officials, irrelevant.

 

The obvious plan B is for Scotland to join Norway, Iceland and Switzerland in the European Free Trade Association. Those countries have membership of the Single Market, free trade with EU states and their citizens have freedom of movement within the EU. After joining EFTA, an independent Scotland can apply for EU membership, ideally after holding a referendum on joining. The Norwegian people voted against joining the EU in a referendum.

 

Such a simple plan B, easily deliverable, would puncture some of the silly arguments and scare tactics of the likes of Milliband, e.g. border controls. The SNP's insistence that an independent Scotland will remain in the EU undermines the credibility of their arguments on other issues, especially the currency. Why should Scots vote to be governed only by a bunch of idiots in Holyrood who cannot even understand key EU treaties and statements or the basic economics of central banking?

[Norgethistle]

Now Standard life have stated they will move south in the event of a YES vote due to currency issue http://www.standardlife.com/utility/customer_statement-2.html

[Norgethistle]

 

 

Has Salmond used the word "guaranteed" in these contexts? Or are you at it again?

 

When questioned in the debates he stated "We will use Sterling" and "we will be allowed into the EU, he is making a statement

[kni]

The Kosovans thought that the EU would approve their application for EU Membership. Big mistake! Serbia stuffed them totally. This EU Observer article summarises the case.

 

And Salmond thinks that an independent Scotland will automatically be accepted and won't even need to apply! He is under-estimating the power of the Spanish and other EU nations with secessionist movements.

[kni]

If Scotland votes Yes, will the rest of the UK be able to vote to accept or reject the negotiated terms of separation? IMHO they should have a say in a referendum as the financial consequences, especially Sterling-isation or a currency union, will be huge. A large proportion of voters will not trust Cameron, Milliband and Clegg to stand up to Salmond's bullying.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

All politicians will lie to keep themselves in a job for 4 more years

 

You might have a point there.

 

Incidentally, 59 MPs who currently represent Scotland at Westminster will be instantly redundant in the event of a Yes vote.

 

Co-incidentally, 51 of the 59 are from the No campaign.