One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Case not proven.

 

I seem to remember the unionists had a similar mantra at the devolution referendum in 1979 when Scotland said YES (51.62%) to NO (48.38%)

 

1,230,937 (YES)

 

1,153,502 (NO)

 

The positive YES was denied by the slightly inconvenient fact that actual dead people on the roll were effectively returned as a NO vote, thus hindering the ability of the YES campaign to meet a ludicrous % of turnout stipulation.

 

I mean, who can prove a case to dead people?

 

Scotland said YES in 1979. A similar straight majority is all we need tomorrow.

 

There's nothing to fear. Except fear itself.

[jaggybunnet]

Oh the banter.

 

not banter, they have failed to explain what will happen when we have to rejoin the eu and what we will do ref the loss of subsidies and grants that the likes of renewable companies depend on, the currency, failing to show any cons to a new currency and how we will deal with the deficit and the debts we will have

[Norgethistle]

Fawlty, why do you say that the case has not been made?

 

Are there any aspects of the debate in particular?

 

Currency (What currency and what central bank if a CU is knocked back)

Pensions (Especially cross border taxation on private ones held in England, European law)

Defense (How will it be funded, what will it be)

Tax (If its lowered how do we pay for a reserve and welfare, yet save for an oil fund)

EU membership (Not a guarantee as made out, what happens if it is knocked back)

Welfare increases (How is it paid if tax is dropped, plus a reserve is needed and an oil fund is being set up)

Immigration (The plan is to dramatically grow the country, how??)

NHS (Already devolved yet plans are afoot from holyrood to cut £500 million)

Trade (If not in the EU / EEA how will it impact)

Groceries (What VAT rate will Scotland set on current zero VAT items)

 

There are loads of grey areas

[jaggybunnet]

Case not proven. I seem to remember the unionists had a similar mantra at the devolution referendum in 1979 when Scotland said YES (51.62%) to NO (48.38%) 1,230,937 (YES) 1,153,502 (NO) The positive YES was denied by the slightly inconvenient fact that actual dead people on the roll were effectively returned as a NO vote, thus hindering the ability of the YES campaign to meet a ludicrous % of turnout stipulation. I mean, who can prove a case to dead people? Scotland said YES in 1979. A similar straight majority is all we need tomorrow. There's nothing to fear. Except fear itself.

 

this vote and anything this important should be at the bare min 60/40 if not higher, it is ridiculouss that we would change on 1% if that.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Currency (What currency and what central bank if a CU is knocked back)

Pensions (Especially cross border taxation on private ones held in England, European law)

Defense (How will it be funded, what will it be)

Tax (If its lowered how do we pay for a reserve and welfare, yet save for an oil fund)

EU membership (Not a guarantee as made out, what happens if it is knocked back)

Welfare increases (How is it paid if tax is dropped, plus a reserve is needed and an oil fund is being set up)

Immigration (The plan is to dramatically grow the country, how??)

NHS (Already devolved yet plans are afoot from holyrood to cut £500 million)

Trade (If not in the EU / EEA how will it impact)

Groceries (What VAT rate will Scotland set on current zero VAT items)

 

There are loads of grey areas

Correction. There are one or two grey areas. You deliberately choose to paint the rest grey, despite the fact there are billions of published words adressing your concerns.

 

Jeez, the only thing missing from your list is how much sunshine allocation we will have as a result of the dark clouds.

 

It's true to say the YES campaign CANNOT categorically answer two of the bigger questions.

 

The currency union will be subject to negotiation.

 

Entry into the EU may be subject to negotiation.

 

Just like dead voters in 1979 it’s an impossibility to answer these questions at this time.

 

It's an exceedingly poor reason to vote no though.

 

We’ve got some great politicians in Scotland – in many different parties, some not even party affiliated at all.

 

To date, the Scottish Government has done the best it can, with limited resources.

 

As such, they have demonstrated they are talented, committed and deserving of your trust.

 

There’s nothing surer than the fact that the chosen negotiating team, will play hard, tough and will do everything it possibly can to negotiate well on our behalf. Remember – we hold an extremely powerful hand – oil, fisheries, natural energy resources, culture, etc.

 

Don’t be fooled by those like Norgethistle who would talk us down. We have brilliant, able politicians in this country, perfectly able to balance the books - we've been doing a much better job of it here in Scotland than they have down South.

 

Don't be fooled by corporate puppets, brass plaques and a supermarket or two. They try to call your bluff – we simply need to keep our head up and eyes wide open.

 

In our negotiations, common sense should prevail – it usually does when it’s in the best interests of those on both sides of the table.

[jaggybunnet]

Correction. There are one or two grey areas. You deliberately choose to paint the rest grey, despite the fact there are billions of published words adressing your concerns.

 

Jeez, the only thing missing from your list is how much sunshine allocation we will have as a result of the dark clouds.

 

It's true to say the YES campaign CANNOT categorically answer two of the bigger questions.

 

The currency union will be subject to negotiation.

 

No it is not, the parties have stated clearly that they wont and as the general election is in 2015 any party seen to be supporting Scotland in a currency union can forget being elected.

 

Entry into the EU may be subject to negotiation.

 

No it is not, the letter states clearly that Scotland will have to rejoin

 

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Yes, they are in a right pickle jb are they not?

 

Down South they've convinced themselves that we "Jocks" are subsidised when the opposite is true.

 

They will be under enormous pressure from their own to stick to their word and block the currency union.

 

On the other side of the coin they can't have their cake and eat it.

 

If they deny us our rightful share of our own asset they forego the right to insist that we inherit our share of the liabilty.

 

I bet you 1.4 trillion bucks they'll negotiate.

 

What a pickle they're in.

 

That's what happens when you spin webs of deceitful lies.

[kni]

 

It's true to say the YES campaign CANNOT categorically answer two of the bigger questions.

 

The currency union will be subject to negotiation.

 

Entry into the EU may be subject to negotiation.

 

 

 

The currency union has been ruled out by the three main parties in the UK. Their MPs will not agree to a currency union which would require the Bank of England to be the lender of last resort to Scotland's banks.

 

The rUK's government will not guarantee the Scots' deposits in any bank. Bank charges in Scotland will have to increase to include deposit insurance or Scots will have to take out their own insurance.

 

Sterling-isation is the SNP's temporary solution on offer and higher interest rates, also reflecting the lack of reserves, are inevitable. Scotland's Treasury bonds will be very expensive and spending cuts are inevitable. Mortgages will rise and house prices are likely to fall quickly and steeply

 

EU entry is not subject to negotiation, it's take to leave the Treaty requirements. They include includes joining the Euro zone and Schengen Area. If Scotland defaults on its debts to rUK, it will not be allowed to join the EU or even EFTA.

[kni]

Yes, they are in a right pickle jb are they not? Down South they've convinced themselves that we "Jocks" are subsidised when the opposite is true. They will be under enormous pressure from their own to stick to their word and block the currency union. On the other side of the coin they can't have their cake and eat it. If they deny us our rightful share of our own asset they forego the right to insist that we inherit our share of the liabilty. I bet you 1.4 trillion bucks they'll negotiate. What a pickle they're in. That's what happens when you spin webs of deceitful lies.

 

The Pound is the UK's asset and if Scotland leaves the UK, it has no rightful share to it.

 

Why won't the SNP even contemplate establishing a new Scottish currency backed it's own Central Bank and reserves?

 

Could it be that Salmond knows that Scotland will have to join the Euro (as a compulsory condition of Membership) and only wants a temporary currency union with rUK?

[Fawlty Towers]

Fawlty, why do you say that the case has not been made?

 

Are there any aspects of the debate in particular?

 

Norgethistle had a pretty good list but I see you have already responded to that so I won't add anything to that discussion.

 

You do admit in your response that there are unaswered questions but I suppose we should be lucky as currency is not a big issue!

 

If someone came to your door and asked you to purchase a product which may or may not work and would not give you details when asked I don't think you would buy it but we are being asked to vote on the future of our counrty on exactly that basis and I for one will not do that just because wee Eck says it will be alright on the night.

[jaggybunnet]

Yes, they are in a right pickle jb are they not?

 

Down South they've convinced themselves that we "Jocks" are subsidised when the opposite is true.

 

Do you live in a darkened room with no windows, Sotland gave in £53 BN and spent £65 Bn

 

They will be under enormous pressure from their own to stick to their word and block the currency union.

 

On the other side of the coin they can't have their cake and eat it.

 

If they deny us our rightful share of our own asset they forego the right to insist that we inherit our share of the liabilty.

 

A CURRENCY UNION IS NOT A ASSET

 

I bet you 1.4 trillion bucks they'll negotiate.

 

What a pickle they're in.

 

That's what happens when you spin webs of deceitful lies.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

With respect kni, we've looked at these issues all throughout this thread over the last year. These are merely the viewpoints with which you concur and that's fair enough. We could trade experts opinion via google all night long.

 

Suffice to say your terminology of inevitable and not subject to negotiation is ill advised and stubborn.

[Norgethistle]

Yes, they are in a right pickle jb are they not?

 

Down South they've convinced themselves that we "Jocks" are subsidised when the opposite is true.

 

They will be under enormous pressure from their own to stick to their word and block the currency union.

 

On the other side of the coin they can't have their cake and eat it.

 

If they deny us our rightful share of our own asset they forego the right to insist that we inherit our share of the liabilty.

 

I bet you 1.4 trillion bucks they'll negotiate.

 

What a pickle they're in.

 

That's what happens when you spin webs of deceitful lies.

 

If Scotland defaults on its debt then no country of financial institution will touch them to allow borrowing, no entry to europe on any level, they will be the pariahs of the western world and classed as untrustworthy.

[jaggybunnet]

With respect kni, we've looked at these issues all throughout this thread over the last year. These are merely the viewpoints with which you concur and that's fair enough. We could trade experts opinion via google all night long.

 

Suffice to say your terminology of inevitable and not subject to negotiation is ill advised and stubborn.

 

i can see why you are voting yes now and it explains a lot, you have no wish to ask any questions and are happy to just go with the flow, fine me i like to know what is going to happen as i have a family to support.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

i can see why you are voting yes now and it explains a lot, you have no wish to ask any questions and are happy to just go with the flow, fine me i like to know what is going to happen as i have a family to support.

Families are at the heart of YES Scotland.

 

Free childcare for all the people! 1 to 5 year olds.

 

Parents out working, creating, contributing.

 

35,000 new jobs in childcare.

 

WAKE UP man.

[Norgethistle]

Families are at the heart of YES Scotland.

 

Free childcare for all the people! 1 to 5 year olds.

 

Parents out working, creating, contributing.

 

35,000 new jobs in childcare.

 

WAKE UP man.

 

Whats going to pay for this??

 

35,000 new jobs that's well over £1 million a year plus insurance, property etc, by allowing the parents back to work doesn't make new jobs for them to return to, they will keep their jobs whilst the temps now don't have the job covering from them.

 

And all this on lower corporate tax (21% down to 5% I believe), higher benefit payments, lower pension age, higher pensions, and a whopping debt to service plus set up a reserve and an oil fund.

 

Jobs don't just appear, there needs to be investment which needs to be paid for, there needs to be stability for the companies in the currency and the banks, there needs to be easy trade, none of that is there

[allyo]

What a bunch we Scots are, eh!

 

We get all worked up singing "Flower of Scotland", which includes the words "when will we see your like again, that fought and diedfor your wee bit hill and glen..."

 

Then, when we are presented with the opportunity to win self-determination without firing a shot, half of us are shitting ourselves.

 

I think flower of Scotland will have to go. With independence it becomes defunct and unnecessarily aggressive. With a note vote it becomes a complete embarrassment.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Norge, the full roll out of that masterplan is detailed in the White paper. It's not instantaneous - two terms.

 

What's going to pay for it? The state's behind it of course. Or, if you like, the working parents themselves via their own tax contributions.

 

All economic wealth creation stems from Scotland being around £3bn a year better off independent than it is subject to London's budget.

[Norgethistle]

Norge, the full roll out of that masterplan is detailed in the White paper. It's not instantaneous - two terms.

 

What's going to pay for it? The state's behind it of course. Or, if you like, the working parents themselves via their own tax contributions.

 

All economic wealth creation stems from Scotland being around £3bn a year better off independent than it is subject to London's budget.

 

The white paper is a £1.3 million embarrassment, a joke, up their with the dandy

 

 

How is it £3 billion better off based on the white paper,

 

cutting corporation tax by double digits...... that will bring more money in

servicing a debt at a higher interest rate

setting up a currency with a fiscal reserve of minimum 25% of GDP

increasing benefits,

Dropping retirement

Increasing pensions

Dropping income tax

 

He's used the same financial guru that Rangers did

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Under the new fairer, simpler tax system in an independent Scotland Rangers (2012) won't get away with their tax evasion nonsense.

 

You yes yet?

[The Jukebox Rebel]

There are three types who will return a verdict of “case not proven” in this referendum.

 

A] British patriots.

 

B] Those who have been fooled or scared by the lies, deceptions and half-truths of project fear and / or the incredible British media bias.

 

C] The brain dead imbeciles who will vote No in response to a plea letter from Scottish Labour that “if you don’t know, Vote No”.

 

I can only hope that those who are voting NO fall into category A. It’s the only acceptable excuse.

[jaggybunnet]

There are three types who will return a verdict of “case not proven” in this referendum.

 

A] British patriots.

 

B] Those who have been fooled or scared by the lies, deceptions and half-truths of project fear and / or the incredible British media bias.

 

C] The brain dead imbeciles who will vote No in response to a plea letter from Scottish Labour that “if you don’t know, Vote No”.

 

I can only hope that those who are voting NO fall into category A. It’s the only acceptable excuse.

 

god you talk/type some bollocks

[Norgethistle]

There are three types who will return a verdict of “case not proven” in this referendum.

 

A] British patriots.

 

B] Those who have been fooled or scared by the lies, deceptions and half-truths of project fear and / or the incredible British media bias.

 

C] The brain dead imbeciles who will vote No in response to a plea letter from Scottish Labour that “if you don’t know, Vote No”.

 

I can only hope that those who are voting NO fall into category A. It’s the only acceptable excuse.

 

Total nonsense and up with the "not a true Scot" pish.

 

It's NO for me as it doesn't add up, the questions haven't been answered and the Yes campaign are trying bullying tactics against the man in the street.

 

I hope my postal vote helps carry it, a lovely saltaire in the NO box

[The Jukebox Rebel]

jb is on record as saying Soctland's not a country it's a region of the UK. That's fair enough. That's his view.

 

Norge, I'm not saying you don't love your country - but you're putting Britain's interests before Scotland's.

[kni]

@ Jukebox Rebel,

 

The EU considers Scotland to be a region of Europe. It is defined as such by the European Commission and represented as uch in the European Parliamentary elections.

 

Can you tell us why you oppose an independent Scotland having its own currency and Central Bank? Is that not preferable to Sterling-isation or a currency union with rUK?

 

Would you support Scotland joining the Eurozone, a condition of EU Membership under the Treaties? If so, why are you putting the EU's supra-national interests before a truly independent Scotland's?