One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.

[Jaggernaut]

This is a simple cut and paste of a comment following a recent article in the Herald. The author is a Mr. Victor Still of Aberdeen; none of it is mine. But I'm posting it here in the hope that any undecided voters (real ones) might read it and then think of all the other lies that we have been fed on an almost daily basis. And then decide who would you trust to make the best of Scotland's resources for the benefit of Scotland: Cameron, Reid, McConnell, Darling, Brown, Lamont, Curran, Baillie? Or Salmond, Sturgeon, Swinney, Neil, and other elected members of the Scottish Government?

 

"I fattened your good posting to add the detail, thanks for the idea Mary, from an old man in Aberdeen with 40 years oil experience.
OIL CHRONOLOGY UNDER UK

The moral of these events noted below is that politics and oil certainly do not mix.

 

1) In c.1965 significant North Sea oil discovered, see Algy Cluff on google.

 

2) Gavin McCrone writes a report - lots of oil in Scotland's Water making Scotland as rich as Switzerland. Suggest an oil fund in Scotland's favour, but this is rejected out of hand by Westminster.

 

3) 1977 Westminster marks report secret, hides it for 30 years from the Scottish people.

 

4) 1977 Westminster says to Scotland there is very little oil perhaps 20 years worth at the very, very most and very difficult to and expensive to extract. So it was due to run out in the 80s.

 

5) Westminster gives the oil companies carte blanche and strikes very poor deals with them. It set a complicated tax regime that has burdened the industry for 3 decades. Westminster proceeds to spend oil revenue like crazy pools winners, on ideology wars under Thatcher- not to mention a war on average every 6 years: Falklands, Balkans, Iraq 1 and 2, Afghanistan, Lybia, now back into Iraq, oh and a hair's breath away from Syria. Not bad for 32 years, no wonder we have no oil fund.

 

6) 1978 Norway establish Statoil, UK sell Britoil. Statoil now a global player on behalf of the Norwegian people. The UK has no state owned oil company, the only oil rich state in the world who doesn't have one.

 

7) 1995 Norway establish oil fund. UK and Iraq are the only oil rich states in the world with no oil fund.

 

8) 2007 McGrone report released, showing the extent of the deceit by Westminster in fooling the Scottish people. All confirmed by Dennis Healey in 2012.

 

9) There is lots of oil in the North Sea and untapped resources West of Scotland. This produces billions of pounds of revenue for the UK treasury; little comes North to Scotland.

 

Sir Ian Woods current position is contrary to his report which he released where he concluded that "North Sea oil can deliver". His words: "a £200 billion injection into the Scottish economy over the next 20 years". The report – described as “the biggest independent review of the North Sea oil and gas industry in its history”. He also argued that reforms to exploration and production would vastly increase output. An independent Scotland, which mobilised such resources, would be well placed to generate far greater prosperity for the Scottish people.

The report was commissioned by - Sir Ian Wood in 2013.

 

10) 2014 Norway’s oil fund is worth today ~ £504,000,000,000 invested all over the world and providing dividend income to Norway every day. The largest state owned fund in the world. Norway didn't blink during the credit crisis. UK were hours away from being bankrupted (google Alistair Darling on UK bankruptcy).

 

11) 2014 Meanwhile today the UK has a debt of £1,400,000,000,000 (£1.4 trillion - a debt of about £23,000 for every citizen of the UK). It continues to rise, food banks and payday loan companies continue to expand. 800,000 Scots official on or below poverty bracket. Osborne plans £25b austerity plan which will hit the poorest hardest. Rich get richer.

 

12) 2014 Westminster says oil is NOW nearly all done as spun by Osborne's think tank OBR. Industry says the opposite, as does the UKGov's Department of environment and climate change forecast double the OBR figures. Even when they lie they cannot get 2 of their own departments to agree, so not only do they fail spectacularly in forecasting, they also fail as liars. Google OBRs forecasting failures; they simply get nothing right.

 

13) There is loads of oil in Scotland's seas - see trade journals. North Sea brown field sites are dying out but predictions are for 2040 to 2050. Next boom is West of Scotland: out of 20 exploration wells we have 4 very large fields. An incredible reward for risk ratio. Shows the geology is yielding massive potential which will be fully exploited by an independent Scotland.

 

14) 2014 Westminster continues to downgrade their already pessimistic forecast by OBR as the referendum nears, only to fool the Scottish people once again. Whilst UK oil and gas the experts says "The North Sea could hold more than £40 billion of “unforeseen” oil revenues in fields which were rejected for development but could now be exploited with the latest exploration and recovery technology.

The fields in the UK continental shelf could create 2,500 jobs and £26bn of investment, as well as giving the “national economy a much needed boost”, a report by analysts at RMRI Consulting has found."

The industry in general invests record amounts into the Scottish oil industry, supporting UK oil and gas"s positive view. As the old adage says, follow the money.

 

15) 18th September Scotland decides. Message to the Scottish people: Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[jaggybunnet]

This is a simple cut and paste of a comment following a recent article in the Herald. The author is a Mr. Victor Still of Aberdeen; none of it is mine. But I'm posting it here in the hope that any undecided voters (real ones) might read it and then think of all the other lies that we have been fed on an almost daily basis. And then decide who would you trust to make the best of Scotland's resources for the benefit of Scotland: Cameron, Reid, McConnell, Darling, Brown, Lamont, Curran, Baillie? Or Salmond, Sturgeon, Swinney, Neil, and other elected members of the Scottish Government?

 

"I fattened your good posting to add the detail, thanks for the idea Mary, from an old man in Aberdeen with 40 years oil experience.
OIL CHRONOLOGY UNDER UK

The moral of these events noted below is that politics and oil certainly do not mix.

 

1) In c.1965 significant North Sea oil discovered, see Algy Cluff on google.

 

2) Gavin McCrone writes a report - lots of oil in Scotland's Water making Scotland as rich as Switzerland. Suggest an oil fund in Scotland's favour, but this is rejected out of hand by Westminster.

 

3) 1977 Westminster marks report secret, hides it for 30 years from the Scottish people.

 

4) 1977 Westminster says to Scotland there is very little oil perhaps 20 years worth at the very, very most and very difficult to and expensive to extract. So it was due to run out in the 80s.

 

5) Westminster gives the oil companies cart blanche and strikes very poor deals with them. It set a complicated tax regime that has burdened the industry for 3 decades. Westminster proceeds to spend oil revenue like crazy pools winners, on ideology wars under Thatcher- not to mention a war on average every 6 years: Falklands, Balkans, Iraq 1 and 2, Afghanistan, Lybia, now back into Iraq, oh and a hair's breath away from Syria. Not bad for 32 years, no wonder we have no oil fund.

 

6) 1978 Norway establish Statoil, UK sell Britoil. Statoil now a global player on behalf of the Norwegian people. The UK gas no state owned oil company, the only oil rich state in the world who doesn't have one.

 

7) 1995 Norway establish oil fund. UK and Iraq are the only oil rich states in the world with no oil fund.

 

8) 2007 McGrone report released, showing the extent of the deceit by Westminster in fooling the Scottish people. All confirmed by Dennis Healey in 2012.

 

9) There is lots of oil in the North Sea and untapped resources West of Scotland. This produces billions of pounds of revenue for the UK treasury; little comes North to Scotland.

 

Sir Ian Woods current position is contrary to his report which he released where he concluded that "North Sea oil can deliver". His words: "a £200 billion injection into the Scottish economy over the next 20 years". The report – described as “the biggest independent review of the North Sea oil and gas industry in its history”. He also argued that reforms to exploration and production would vastly increase output. An independent Scotland, which mobilised such resources, would be well placed to generate far greater prosperity for the Scottish people.

The report was commissioned by - Sir Ian Wood in 2013.

 

10) 2014 Norway’s oil fund is worth today ~ £504,000,000,000 invested all over the world and providing dividend income to Norway every day. The largest state owned fund in the world. Norway didn't blink during the credit crisis. UK were hours away from being bankrupted (google Alistair Darling on UK bankruptcy).

 

11) 2014 Meanwhile today the UK has a debt of £1,400,000,000,000 (£1.4 trillion - a debt of about £23,000 for every citizen of the UK). It continues to rise, food banks and payday loan companies continue to expand. 800,000 Scots official on or below poverty bracket. Osborne plans £25b austerity plan which will hit the poorest hardest. Rich get richer.

 

12) 2014 Westminster says oil is NOW nearly all done as spun by Osborne's think tank OBR. Industry says the opposite, as does the UKGov's Department of environment and climate change forecast double the OBR figures. Even when they lie they cannot get 2 of their own departments to agree, so not only do they fail spectacularly in forecasting, they also fail as liars. Google OBRs forecasting failures; they simply get nothing right.

 

13) There is loads of oil in Scotland's seas - see trade journals. North Sea brown field sites are dying out but predictions are for 2040 to 2050. Next boom is West of Scotland: out of 20 exploration wells we have 4 very large fields. An incredible reward for risk ratio. Shows the geology is yielding massive potential which will be fully exploited by an independent Scotland.

 

14) 2014 Westminster continues to downgrade their already pessimistic forecast by OBR as the referendum nears, only to fool the Scottish people once again. Whilst UK oil and gas the experts says "The North Sea could hold more than £40 billion of “unforeseen” oil revenues in fields which were rejected for development but could now be exploited with the latest exploration and recovery technology.

The fields in the UK continental shelf could create 2,500 jobs and £26bn of investment, as well as giving the “national economy a much needed boost”, a report by analysts at RMRI Consulting has found."

The industry in general invests record amounts into the Scottish oil industry, supporting UK oil and gas"s positive view. As the old adage says, follow the money.

 

15) 18th September Scotland decides. Message to the Scottish people: Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."

 

 

you could have just said you (like the rest of the yes camp ) have no clue or plan to how to do this but that wouldn't help your case, would it.

 

in summary it seems that the yes camp just want independence even if it throws Scotland back into the dark ages...because, well, they can.

 

you have had decades to plan this with all the intricacies that would have shown that you have Scotland future in your plans, but no.

[Jaggernaut]

you could have just said you (like the rest of the yes camp ) have no clue or plan to how to do this but that wouldn't help your case, would it.

 

in summary it seems that the yes camp just want independence even if it throws Scotland back into the dark ages...because, well, they can.

 

you have had decades to plan this with all the intricacies that would have shown that you have Scotland future in your plans, but no.

 

Oh, are you referring the "no" campaign "Facts You Need" document that tells Scots that without Westminster handouts Scotland would be poorer than Pakistan?

 

The liars are getting caught out every day.

 

ETA: Tell us, Jaggybunnet: How do you feel about that list of examples of deception, information hiding, and lying by the Westminster establishment to the Scottish people over the last 50 years?

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[jaggybunnet]

I'm no expert, and I guess you aren't either. Could we agree that Credit Suisse working parties are more knowledgeable than any of us who post here? Here's what Credit Suisse finds, as reported in Saturday's Herald:

 

"Scotland would rank higher than the UK in the United Nations index of human development even without the income from North Sea oil."

 

 

you forgot this part and as i cant see the full story probably more.

 

"Small countries can be more equal and efficient than larger countries but are also more susceptible to volatile economic growth, according to a leading international bank".

[jaggybunnet]

Oh, are you referring the "no" campaign "Facts You Need" document that tells Scots that without Westminster handouts Scotland would be poorer than Pakistan?

 

The liars are getting caught out every day.

 

it is a fact that Scotland runs at a £ 8bn yearly deficit and no they are the snp and yes camp facts that they don't really want people to see.

 

so a little denial and deflection today is it, or are you going to show all the yes camp plans to deal with this problem, your choice.

[Jaggernaut]

you forgot this part and as i cant see the full story probably more.

 

"Small countries can be more equal and efficient than larger countries but are also more susceptible to volatile economic growth, according to a leading international bank".

 

And your point is?

[Jaggernaut]

it is a fact that Scotland runs at a £ 8bn yearly deficit and no they are the snp and yes camp facts that they don't really want people to see. so a little denial and deflection today is it, or are you going to show all the yes camp plans to deal with this problem, your choice.

 

The UK's annual deficit is around 100 billion. What is rUK's plan B for when it has to service its debt without income from oil and whisky? Actually I mean their plan B along with plan A, which is more austerity, in other words making the poor suffer while the rich establishment figures get richer, further attacks on pensions, already appallingly low, increase the rate of privatisation of health services, which will further enrich many of the Westminster establishment with their fingers in the "correct" business pies... What is their plan B for Trident? The good people of Portsmouth have already said no way.... If you want to stick with that, then as you say: your choice.

 

You might not have seen my question above regarding Mr. Still's letter:

 

ETA: Tell us, Jaggybunnet: How do you feel about that list of examples of deception, information hiding, and lying by the Westminster establishment to the Scottish people over the last 50 years?

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[jaggybunnet]

The UK's annual deficit is around 100 billion. What is rUK's plan B for when it has to service its debt without income from oil and whisky? Actually I mean their plan B along with plan A, which is more austerity, in other words making the poor suffer while the rich establishment figures get richer, further attacks on pensions, already appallingly low, increase the rate of privatisation of health services, which will further enrich many of the Westminster establishment with their fingers in the "correct" business pies... What is their plan B for Trident? The good people of Portsmouth have already said no way.... If you want to stick with that, then as you say: your choice.

 

You might not have seen my question above regarding Mr. Still's letter:

 

ETA: Tell us, Jaggybunnet: How do you feel about that list of examples of deception, information hiding, and lying by the Westminster establishment to the Scottish people over the last 50 years?

 

 

deflection it is today.

[Jaggernaut]

deflection it is today.

 

I'll try one more time and then drop it:

 

ETA: Tell us, Jaggybunnet: How do you feel about that list of examples of deception, information hiding, and lying by the Westminster establishment to the Scottish people over the last 50 years, as described in Mr. Still's letter?

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[jaggybunnet]

I'll try one more time and then drop it:

 

ETA: Tell us, Jaggybunnet: How do you feel about that list of examples of deception, information hiding, and lying by the Westminster establishment to the Scottish people over the last 50 years, as described in Mr. Still's letter?

 

what do you mean you will try one more time, i have tried to get answers out of you and the yes guys for months.

 

as for the rest, some yes some are just rubbish and do you really think it would be any different in a independent Scotland because if you are then you really are very naive.

 

and still the deflection. try answering my question or showing all this information from the yes camp that show it....not

Edited August 25, 2014 by jaggybunnet

[Jaggernaut]

what do you mean you will try one more time, i have tried to get answers out of you and the yes guys for months.

 

as for the rest, some yes some are just rubbish and do you really think it would be any different in a independent Scotland because if you are then you really are very naive.

 

and still the deflection. try answering my question or showing all this information from the yes camp that show it....not

 

Which ones are "just rubbish?" And "Yes" isn't really a reply to a "How" question. Do you approve of those lies and deceptions?

[jaggybunnet]

Which ones are "just rubbish?" And "Yes" isn't really a reply to a "How" question. Do you approve of those lies and deceptions?

 

yes they will happen no i don't approve and yes they will continue to happen even in a an independent Scotland, i was going to answer each one but then thought no, bollocks, i asked the question that should be easy for the yes camp to answer, but no they as normal try to deflect with other rubbish.

 

Answer the question please or admit that you and the rest of the yes camp have no clue how they would deal with it, and we haven't even touched on how we would deal with the loss of grants and subsidies from the EU.

[The Sunnylaw Jag]

Went to the bank today to discover it was closed due to an English holiday. Oh well I suppose their needs should be met before us Scots.

[Norgethistle]

Went to the bank today to discover it was closed due to an English holiday. Oh well I suppose their needs should be met before us Scots.

 

Plenty of Scotland was off today as well

[jaggybunnet]

Went to the bank today to discover it was closed due to an English holiday. Oh well I suppose their needs should be met before us Scots.

 

that was a joke surely

[The Sunnylaw Jag]

Plenty were off but not by choice, they couldn't be off on local traditional holidays instead.

[jaggybunnet]

Plenty were off but not by choice, they couldn't be off on local traditional holidays instead.

 

oh dear

[Jaggernaut]

yes they will happen no i don't approve and yes they will continue to happen even in a an independent Scotland, i was going to answer each one but then thought no, bollocks, i asked the question that should be easy for the yes camp to answer, but no they as normal try to deflect with other rubbish.

 

Answer the question please or admit that you and the rest of the yes camp have no clue how they would deal with it, and we haven't even touched on how we would deal with the loss of grants and subsidies from the EU.

 

So an independent Scottish government will lie and hide facts about oil from the Scottish people? And they would do that why?

 

Your question was about how to deal with the annual deficit? Just about every country on the planet runs an annual deficit. I have no idea what approach the first Scottish government that gets elected will adopt to deal with it: will it be swingeing austerity aimed at the poorest in society, i.e., Westminster's favourite ploy, or will it be like Japan's creating jobs (many of which aren't real jobs but it keeps income coming into families while they try to improve industrial output)? I don't know, and I'll wait to see what's on offer.

 

The issue is, Jaggybunnet, that almost every country runs a deficit, and every country survives. There is absolutely no reason why Scotland should not, and with its resources it will be in a stronger position than many, including rUK.

[jaggybunnet]

So an independent Scottish government will lie and hide facts about oil from the Scottish people? And they would do that why?

 

Your question was about how to deal with the annual deficit? Just about every country on the planet runs an annual deficit. I have no idea what approach the first Scottish government that gets elected will adopt to deal with it: will it be swingeing austerity aimed at the poorest in society, i.e., Westminster's favourite ploy, or will it be like Japan's creating jobs (many of which aren't real jobs but it keeps income coming into families while they try to improve industrial output)? I don't know, and I'll wait to see what's on offer.

 

The issue is, Jaggybunnet, that almost every country runs a deficit, and every country survives. There is absolutely no reason why Scotland should not, and with its resources it will be in a stronger position than many, including rUK.

 

 

deflection again, i don't care what other countries do i want to see how we would deal with it, some are able to do it better than others, are we a Greece or are we Iceland, both have austerity one is dealing with it by borrowing its way out of it the other by cutting its self away from the rest of the world.

 

i ask you again what would a independent Scotland do to cope with the debt.

 

and yes an independent Scottish government will lie and hide facts about oil from the Scottish people if it thought that was best for itself, to think any different is naive verging on the deluded..i will let you pick which one you think you are.

[Jaggernaut]

deflection again, i don't care what other countries do i want to see how we would deal with it, some are able to do it better than others, are we a Greece or are we Iceland, both have austerity one is dealing with it by borrowing its way out of it the other by cutting its self away from the rest of the world. i ask you again what would a independent Scotland do to cope with the debt. and yes an independent Scottish government will lie and hide facts about oil from the Scottish people if it thought that was best for itself, to think any different is naive verging on the deluded..i will let you pick which one you think you are.

 

What is this repetitive cry of "deflection"?

 

How the hell do you expect me to tell you how we would deal with it? I'm not in government! As I told you, that will depend on whatever shape the first government in an independent Scotland takes, and what their policies are. Are we a Greece or an Iceland? Or a Denmark or a Norway?

 

You seem very stoic about the levels of deception, withholding of information, and lying by Westminster to Scotland in the last 50 years. I think that millions of Scots have had enough of it, and for unionists' to continue to bleat on about currency (blown out of the water), NHS (lies), no cross-border cooperation on blood transfusions (lies), no cross-border cooperation on organ transplants (lies) etc. etc. is strengthening the YES vote every day.

 

Bye the way, what did you think of the debate last night? I'm guessing you think it was either a narrow win for Darling or a draw? That's not what the media are reporting, of course.

[Norgethistle]

Here is a question, The Scottish government has promised Shetland ALL the oil money from their region, as the historic beds drop in production and the new north of Shetland ones come more to the front, how will that affect the proposed "Oil fund" Shetlands water will be around 1/5th of all UK sector oil and around 1/4 to a 1/3 of an independent Scotland, whist having less than 1% of the population

 

http://www.bbc.com/n...litics-28956405

 

Or is it to try and stop another break away from a broke away Scotland

 

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/islandgroups

 

They have already rejected it based on "Time"

Edited August 27, 2014 by Norgethistle

[jaggybunnet]

What is this repetitive cry of "deflection"?

 

How the hell do you expect me to tell you how we would deal with it? I'm not in government! As I told you, that will depend on whatever shape the first government in an independent Scotland takes, and what their policies are. Are we a Greece or an Iceland? Or a Denmark or a Norway?

 

My point is that we should know how we would deal with it from the yes camp, the information should be out there so it can be looked at and challenged if it is shown to be rubbish (see white paper for proof of this). No it will not be the next goverment, it will be the snp who will be doing the negotiations with who ever the hand pick.

 

You seem very stoic about the levels of deception, withholding of information, and lying by Westminster to Scotland in the last 50 years. I think that millions of Scots have had enough of it, and for unionists' to continue to bleat on about currency (blown out of the water), NHS (lies), no cross-border cooperation on blood transfusions (lies), no cross-border cooperation on organ transplants (lies) etc. etc. is strengthening the YES vote every day.

 

Scotland parly is relatively new in the scheme of things and they have already lied/failed to tell the truth (you pick) on occasions that we know of so far so yes i am resigned to the fact it will happen. please tell me why the currency has as you put it "been blown out of the water". the rest i am sure would be open to negotiation but i wouldn't hold out for it going Scotland way.

 

Bye the way, what did you think of the debate last night? I'm guessing you think it was either a narrow win for Darling or a draw? That's not what the media are reporting, of course.

 

it was as with all of these things a waste of time, we never find out any actual information apart maybe who is better in front of the camera

[Meister Jag]

Jaggy, some additional ammo' for your back pocket. Mind and keep it dry and use it sparingly: http://www.communist-party.org.uk/britain/cp-in-your-area/scotland/1876-statement-on-scottish-independence-4-march-2014.html

 

Found this quite enlightening TBH.

[jaggybunnet]

Jaggy, some additional ammo' for your back pocket. Mind and keep it dry and use it sparingly: http://www.communist...march-2014.html

 

Found this quite enlightening TBH.

 

long time no see, you been keeping well?

[Jaggernaut]

Jaggybunnet:

 

Agreed about the tv debates. Useless, and may even result in some people voting for the wrong reasons.

 

Anybody seen the Youtube videos of Jim Murphy's tour of Scotland to speak for the union? Funny but pathetic at the same time.