Who Gets The Vote?

[twinny]

I would imagine turnout would be incredibly low should the rest of the UK be included in the poll, but I guess that doesn't mean they shouldn't have a say. I do believe however that it is a Scottish question and not a UK question.

 

Hypothetically, say 100% of Scottish people favoured independence and only 40% of the rest of the country with a 100% turnout. This would end up Scotland remaining part of the union despite not a single Scot wanting that. This is of course very far from what would happen.

 

I remember a poll a couple of years back that showed that among those polled in England, there was a great perception that Scotland relied heavily on the union. These same people overwhelmingly wanted to see Scotland independent. That's nice of them to want Scotland to suffer. I'm not sure I want to be in a union with those people

[Norgethistle]

I would imagine turnout would be incredibly low should the rest of the UK be included in the poll, but I guess that doesn't mean they shouldn't have a say. I do believe however that it is a Scottish question and not a UK question.

 

Hypothetically, say 100% of Scottish people favoured independence and only 40% of the rest of the country with a 100% turnout. This would end up Scotland remaining part of the union despite not a single Scot wanting that. This is of course very far from what would happen.

 

I remember a poll a couple of years back that showed that among those polled in England, there was a great perception that Scotland relied heavily on the union. These same people overwhelmingly wanted to see Scotland independent. That's nice of them to want Scotland to suffer. I'm not sure I want to be in a union with those people

 

Reverse scenario, Scotland votes to stay part of the union even though popular opinion in England is to throw us out, so England is stuck with us and have no say

Edited August 21, 2013 by Norgethistle

[The Mighty Quinn]

give the 16 yr olds the vote. god give the 10yr olds it in scotland, the way these cretins vote. they all vote labour but dont see they destruction labour have caused the normal workin man. they blame the tories, but everytime britains into recession, its the back end of a labour govt. tories tidy up after them n get made out to be bad guys

[The Mighty Quinn]

give the 16 yr olds the vote. god give the 10yr olds it in scotland, the way these cretins vote. they all vote labour but dont see they destruction labour have caused the normal workin man. they blame the tories, but everytime britains into recession, its the back end of a labour govt. tories tidy up after them n get made out to be bad guys. totally blinkered cretins. ' i vote labour because i'm fae a labour family.' u not got a mind of your own? labours destroyed the working class

[Guy Incognito]

You talking to yourself now, Quinny?

[The Mighty Quinn]

You talking to yourself now, Quinny?

no

[The Mighty Quinn]

it's a forum mate, u talk to other people

[jaggybunnet]

sorry jb, but that proposal is riddled with faults imo.

 

could you provide evidence of other country who have had an independance vote, and had the exact same criteria you propose?

 

i dont care about how other countries vote

 

you are saying (for example) someone who has never set foot in scotland, and who may have no emotional or patriotic feelings towards scotland, has never contributed or has any intention to contribute to the wellbeing of scotland (in monetary ways or any other multiple ways) should get a vote??!!

 

how many hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people do you think this will be? think about it ..... even if born in scotland, they could have left with their parents while a toddler, primary school age or even secondary level when they emigrated to australia, usa, africa, all over europe, far east, etc ..... think of the logistical (let alone cost of) nightmare that would be. why should such people be entitled to be part of the decision of what scotland becomes? they could have been out the country for 5 or 50 years easily by now. and they could have offspring of 2, 4 or however many ..... yet you think such people (and their offspring) are as equally entitled to vote as someone who has lived all their lives (or even majority, or even last 5 years) in scotland? even providing "evidence" of their family history, opens up very real potential for mass voting fraud.

 

it's not hard to come up with such a proposal as yours, but the validity, practicality and fairness of such a proposal is so wrong in so many ways, it is simply unjust and unworkable on so many levels.

 

the current voting criteria may not be wholly ideal for everyone, but on the whole, it is fair for the majority who will ultmately be the ones who live in scotland and who will contribute to the economy and be part of its social fabric going forward as a independent country.

 

how is it hard they want to vote they must register showing proof of there place of birth or there parents place of birth, they could use and here is a stab in the dark ....birth certificates.

 

we either involve ALL Scottish people or just don't bother with it at all, the same checks for those applying to go on the electoral roll.

[jaggybunnet]

16-18 year olds are in a weird position. Allowed to have sex, get married, but not allowed to buy/watch porn. Allowed to sign up for the forces, leave school and pay taxes in a full time job, but not allowed to vote on those who make decisions on the forces or taxation. Either you believe 16 your olds should not be allowed to marry and join the forces or you believe they should be allowed to vote. Anything in between is hypocrisy, but that's not the point of this thread.

 

fine let them vote, i dont have a problem with it.oh and in the armed forces they not able to deploy to any operations till they are 18, which means they are only able to train.

 

Those who are away due to work commitments, if it's short term they will have some form of residence in Scotland. If they've moved permanently, why should they get a vote?

 

why shouldn't they?

 

JB, there is no database containing the names and contact details of everyone across the world who is Scottish or has a Scottish parent. This would be impossible to set up. I would love to see you set out exactly how you propose to have every expat in the world vote by post or proxy. It is impossible.

 

how is it hard they want to vote they must register showing proof of there place of birth or there parents place of birth, they could use birth certificates.

 

there would IMO only be a small percentage that would register but that is not the point, the point is that they would have been given the choice which you seem happy to deny them

[Guy Incognito]

no

 

Good. Just checking.

[yoda-jag]

how is it hard they want to vote they must register showing proof of there place of birth or there parents place of birth, they could use and here is a stab in the dark ....birth certificates.

 

we either involve ALL Scottish people or just don't bother with it at all, the same checks for those applying to go on the electoral roll.

 

 

you don't care how other countries vote when it comes to independence votes? so you are happy for scotland to go against all normal convention and practice worldwide, when it comes to the vote?

 

says a lot about you it does.

 

 

as for rest of your reply ..... is that it?

 

seriously?

 

you are not willing to address or discuss (for instance, amongst many other faults in your , 'proposal',) the imbalance or validity of why people who have never set foot inside scotland, who haven't ever or never will contribute to the economy and be part of the social fabric of scotland, and yet they have equal or greater rights over people who do live and work in scotland (in your argument, they have greater rights to those who have been in residence in scotland less than 5 years who in your dreamworld won't even get a vote or say in the independence ballot) ??

 

madness.

 

thought better of you, that'd you'd at least engage more sensibly and debate points back and forth, but if that last post of yours is your level of debate jb, i'll leave yoo to mass debate with yourself.

[jaggybunnet]

you don't care how other countries vote when it comes to independence votes? so you are happy for scotland to go against all normal convention and practice worldwide, when it comes to the vote?

 

says a lot about you it does.

 

Again why? why should we care what other countries do Scottish people should have the vote, what's your issue with that?

 

 

as for rest of your reply ..... is that it?

 

seriously?

 

you are not willing to address or discuss (for instance, amongst many other faults in your , 'proposal',) the imbalance or validity of why people who have never set foot inside scotland, who haven't ever or never will contribute to the economy and be part of the social fabric of scotland,

and yet they have equal or greater rights over people who do live and work in scotland (in your argument, they have greater rights to those who have been in residence in scotland less than 5 years who in your dreamworld won't even get a vote or say in the independence ballot) ??

 

yes because they are not Scottish What is the problem? if it keeps you happy you can change it to 3 years i don't really care, i care about Scottish people who cant vote

 

so because they (due to birth or work) have been away you deny them the vote, says all we need to know about the yes camp and there alleged democracy, its all a bluff like there plans. how do you know that they wont move back

 

madness.

 

thought better of you, that'd you'd at least engage more sensibly and debate points back and forth, but if that last post of yours is your level of debate jb, i'll leave yoo to mass debate with yourself.

 

you denying SCOTTISH people the vote should they want to is the issue, i have asked why and you have not came out with any reasons

 

 

you seem to have this view that there will millions of ex-pats clambering to get the vote, i doubt this very much, the fact they have to apply will make sure its only those with (as you say) emotional patriotic feelings towards Scotland that would apply.

I am willing to address any points you make whilst you seem happy to just brush it under the carpet as they don't matter,

Edited August 26, 2013 by jaggybunnet

[yoda-jag]

yoda-jag, on 26 August 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

you don't care how other countries vote when it comes to independence votes? so you are happy for scotland to go against all normal convention and practice worldwide, when it comes to the vote?

 

says a lot about you it does.

 

Again why? why should we care what other countries do Scottish people should have the vote, what's your issue with that?

legality of vote, the legal challenges your proposal would result in, resultant potential delay to the vote date such a voting eligibility would have resulted in, this despite the fact it goes against all standard convention worldwide for such a vote eligibility ..... and thats apart from my own personal views of where i believe your proposal has faults in voter eligibility, as well as issues like openness to potential voting fraud.

 

as for rest of your reply ..... is that it?

 

seriously?

 

you are not willing to address or discuss (for instance, amongst many other faults in your , 'proposal',) the imbalance or validity of why people who have never set foot inside scotland, who haven't ever or never will contribute to the economy and be part of the social fabric of scotland,

and yet they have equal or greater rights over people who do live and work in scotland (in your argument, they have greater rights to those who have been in residence in scotland less than 5 years who in your dreamworld won't even get a vote or say in the independence ballot) ??

 

yes because they are not Scottish What is the problem? if it keeps you happy you can change it to 3 years i don't really care, i care about Scottish people who cant vote

 

so because they (due to birth or work) have been away you deny them the vote, says all we need to know about the yes camp and there alleged democracy, its all a bluff like there plans. how do you know that they wont move back

 

it's not so much the "are they scottish/are they not scottish" aspect of your proposal i am in disagreement with. it is more the fact that many of whom you wish to be able to vote, have never, and likely never will, contribute to the scottish economy through taxes, or the social fabric of the nation ..... yes some will have, some may in the future, but how can you tell, or at what point do you draw such a line of vote eligilbity on such contributions? for instance, if they get to vote, but don't live in scotland currently, should they pay taxes towards the economy regardless of whether the vote result is yes or no? you may say that is a silly proposal or point from your POV, but if you link it to my remit of contributing to the economy/social fabric of scotland, is it that wrong? yes, under the current voting eligibility (agreed by the snp, greens (the yes camp), labour, lib dems and your beloved tories (the no camp)), there will be some unfortunate losers (for example, some due to work who are for a few years away from scotland and not resident and thus don't quualify for the vote eligibity agreed by all political parties (in line with standard worldwide practices for independence voting)), but the unfortunate fact is you are arguing for and advocating a voting eligibilty that has more wrongs that rights imo.

and if i was to make an overall judgement on the impact of your proposals and the likely way such non-scottish residents would vote, i would not be at all surprised if the majority of those actually fell in the yes camp, as majority would be under romantic notion of their scottish heritage and would be more likely not to base their votes on full knowledge of the facts and pro's and cons of independence to the full and minutiae aspects and consequences. as i have consistently said, these potential voters will in the main, not have contributed to the scottish economy and social fabric for the past 5 years, or since devolution, or in many cases, 50 years or longer, or not even set foot in scotland, having emigrated to, or lived all their lives in usa, canada, australia, nz, throughout europe, africa, middle and far east etc.

and if they were "to move back", is this an open ended quantity of time, or just on the romantic notion they might, but with no certainty, or should there be some stipulation on time limit in order to allow them the vote, and how would that (move) be enforced in the future, or if they don't, should their vote be void, long after the fact?

then there is the aspect of potential for voting fraud, who is going to police it, where and how do they vote (postal votes from overseas or uk embassies around the world by personal attendance? or what?), who picks up the cost (uk government, scottish government?) and so on?

then there is fallicy in your argument of why shouldn't people who have lived in scotland and paid taxes or been part of the scottish society fabric, whether it is one year, 3 years, 5 years or a lifetime, not be allowed to vote just because they weren't born in scotland, or are of scottish parentage? .....

can you honestly disagree with all these points and the validity of them?

 

 

madness.

 

thought better of you, that'd you'd at least engage more sensibly and debate points back and forth, but if that last post of yours is your level of debate jb, i'll leave yoo to mass debate with yourself.

 

you denying SCOTTISH people the vote should they want to is the issue, i have asked why and you have not came out with any reasons

 

born in scotland = scottish.

whatever country someone is born in = their nationality.

born in another country, but of scottish parent(s) = nationality of country they were born in, but of scottish descent = not technically scottish.

all imo.

 

i never said the current voting eligiibilty is perfect and without fault, but have argued the agreed (by all political parties) eligibilty criteria is more fairer, just and right, than your criteria, and stated some of the faults of your proposed criteria.

 

as for you "have asked why, and (i) have not come out with any reasons" ..... you clearly have not properly read my previous posts and which i have reitterated and expanded upon in this post.

 

you seem to have this view that there will millions of ex-pats clambering to get the vote, i doubt this very much, the fact they have to apply will make sure its only those with (as you say) emotional patriotic feelings towards Scotland that would apply.

I am willing to address any points you make whilst you seem happy to just brush it under the carpet as they don't matter,

 

i have never once brushed your points under the carpet, i have repeatedly made my POV as to why i beleive your stance and wishes for voting eligibilty criteria come with more wrongs than rights, and have justified and explained these. you, on other hand, have not entered into that debate in the main imo, with any backup arguments of substance or evidence for your assertion that scotland independence vote should be open to a wider than approved demographic, which flies in face of worldwide conventional voting practices.

 

in closing, i will give you credit in that finally, after much cajoling, you appear to have started to put a little bit of meat on the bones of your arguments, and are beginning to say a bit more with some attempted justification and reasoning, allowing for further response and dissection of your arguments (and mine), as opposed to your initial statement of anyone scottish birth or of scottish parentage but no one else, and little else debate ..... and you appear to have now started to enter into a form of debate, where your points can be further discussed and debated, and where you will hopefully reciprocate in kind. long may it continue

Edited August 26, 2013 by yoda-jag

[jaggybunnet]

i have never once brushed your points under the carpet, i have repeatedly made my POV as to why i beleive your stance and wishes for voting eligibilty criteria come with more wrongs than rights, and have justified and explained these. you, on other hand, have not entered into that debate in the main imo, with any backup arguments of substance or evidence for your assertion that scotland independence vote should be open to a wider than approved demographic, which flies in face of worldwide conventional voting practices.

 

in closing, i will give you credit in that finally, after much cajoling, you appear to have started to put a little bit of meat on the bones of your arguments, and are beginning to say a bit more with some attempted justification and reasoning, allowing for further response and dissection of your arguments (and mine), as opposed to your initial statement of anyone scottish birth or of scottish parentage but no one else, and little else debate ..... and you appear to have now started to enter into a form of debate, where your points can be further discussed and debated, and where you will hopefully reciprocate in kind. long may it continue

 

i cant get your first bit up as a quote but will give it a go

 

both Switzerland and France both allow people outside the country to vote with them registering themselves at the consulate responsible for the region in which they live. denmark allows this up to 12 years after leaving and does not allow any foreign workers to vote unless they have been in denmark for at least 5 years so it can happen, ​as i said in my last post i dont realy care although there should be a limit and 5 years sounds right

 

yes i know its is probably to late now but my point is that if we can change laws for the under 16 and the challenges to make that work then why not this

 

As for fraud have you seen how easy it is to register and vote in this country i have not once been asked for id but was just asked for my name which as she got me to point it out on the sheet so wasn't that hard.

 

as opposed to your initial statement of anyone scottish birth or of scottish parentage but no one else,

 

where did i say this? i stated

 

more difficult would be those Non Scottish that have lived here all there life but you could put a 5 year min in residence limit.

 

i do read you posts, i just don't agree with you and most of what you have posted has been your opinions, what i am proposing is not something that would be illegal or could not be brought in as law as they have for under 18s.

 

as for paying for it, i could say the same for having the referendum in the first place, a waste of money to find out most people don't want independence

Edited August 26, 2013 by jaggybunnet