Who Gets The Vote?

[Blackpool Jags]

I won't get a vote and rightly so: I've been down here far too long to be entitled to one.

[Guy Incognito]

 

 

so let me get this right, we are happy to change the law to allow 16 to 18 year olds to vote because "this is one of the most important votes for the Scottish people" but we cant be bothered to sort something out for the thousands of SCOTTISH people who (in some cases ) are only away due to work commitments...oh and if you think that every one can pick and chose where they work then you are wrong, for some its a choice of work where they tell you or the dole and if you don't have to make that choice than i am very happy for you

 

16 to 18 year-olds are the potential future of the country, of course they should have a say in its destiny.

 

If people are only away due to work commitments, i.e. they are usually resident in Scotland, then they are eligible to vote. If they have moved from Scotland permanently then they won't. But how do you determine whether someone has left purely for economic reasons or simply because they were fed up with Scotland and fancied making a go of it elsewhere?

 

The former group I have some sympathy for (the fact that tens of thousands of Scots each year find themselves in this position is one reason why I favour independence) but not the latter. If some Scots would rather live outside Scotland then fine, good luck to them. But they shouldn't be in a position to affect the lives of those who remain here. They can't have it both ways.

[Norgethistle]

It's a benefit of being 'better together', presumably.

 

Yes or No isn't going to fix that over night, world wide recession on cheaper to make things in China, Romania etc only a limited amount of Jobs in the UK oil sector, only so much whiskey can be drunk???

[jaggybunnet]

16 to 18 year-olds are the potential future of the country, of course they should have a say in its destiny.

 

If people are only away due to work commitments, i.e. they are usually resident in Scotland, then they are eligible to vote. If they have moved from Scotland permanently then they won't. But how do you determine whether someone has left purely for economic reasons or simply because they were fed up with Scotland and fancied making a go of it elsewhere?

 

The former group I have some sympathy for (the fact that tens of thousands of Scots each year find themselves in this position is one reason why I favour independence) but not the latter. If some Scots would rather live outside Scotland then fine, good luck to them. But they shouldn't be in a position to affect the lives of those who remain here. They can't have it both ways.

 

how is it hard to figure out, if you are scottish you should have the vote..even Sean Connery

[Guy Incognito]

how is it hard to figure out, if you are scottish you should have the vote..even Sean Connery

 

Sorry, but I don't agree. Sean Connery hasn't lived in Scotland since the 1950s and probably doesn't plan to again. He is entitled to his opinion, but I don't believe someone in his circumstances should be able to directly influence the outcome of the referendum. (Even if he is right in thinking that we should be independent. )

[jaggybunnet]

Sorry, but I don't agree. Sean Connery hasn't lived in Scotland since the 1950s and probably doesn't plan to again. He is entitled to his opinion, but I don't believe someone in his circumstances should be able to directly influence the outcome of the referendum. (Even if he is right in thinking that we should be independent. )

 

so just to make sure i am getting this right the snp yes camp don't want SCOTTISH people to vote in the most important vote for Scotland for years. even if they are only out of the country because that is the only place they can get work?

 

as for the 16-18 year old so that means you have put those 18+ on the scarp heap and they don't matter??

[Guy Incognito]

 

 

so just to make sure i am getting this right the snp yes camp don't want SCOTTISH people to vote in the most important vote for Scotland for years. even if they are only out of the country because that is the only place they can get work?

 

as for the 16-18 year old so that means you have put those 18+ on the scarp heap and they don't matter??

 

The line has to be drawn somewhere and restricting the vote to those living in Scotland is the simplest way to do it. Why should someone who no longer lives in Scotland have the same right to vote on its future as someone who does? As I have said, I have some sympathy for those who have moved away purely for work - I didn't live in Scotland at the time of the Scottish parliament referendum and thus wasn't able to vote - but ultimately that is one of the things you have to weigh up when you decide to move. Blackpool Jags and Twinny, two ex-pats, have indicated as much earlier in the thread. And if it matters so much to emigrant Scots they could always move back if their circumstances allow them to.

 

Another thing: define Scottish. Is it anyone born in Scotland? If so, then someone who happened to be born here while his or her parents were on holiday could find themselves eligible to vote. They may not have been in Scotland since then, but they would be in a position to vote in a referendum to determine the country's constitutional future! Again, why should such people have the same rights as someone who maybe wasn't born here but has chosen to make Scotland their home?

 

I am not sure what you are getting at with your last point, sorry.

[jaggybunnet]

The line has to be drawn somewhere (does it, why?)and restricting the vote to those living in Scotland is the simplest way to do it. Why should someone who no longer lives in Scotland have the same right to vote on its future as someone who does? (because they are Scottish or is that not enough) As I have said, I have some sympathy for those who have moved away purely for work - I didn't live in Scotland at the time of the Scottish parliament referendum and thus wasn't able to vote - but ultimately that is one of the things you have to weigh up when you decide to move. Blackpool Jags and Twinny, two ex-pats, have indicated as much earlier in the thread. And if it matters so much to emigrant Scots they could always move back if their circumstances allow them to. But until then you would deny them the vote

 

Another thing: define Scottish. Is it anyone born in Scotland? If so, then someone who happened to be born here while his or her parents were on holiday could find themselves eligible to vote. They may not have been in Scotland since then, but they would be in a position to vote in a referendum to determine the country's constitutional future! Again, why should such people have the same rights as someone who maybe wasn't born here but has chosen to make Scotland their home?

 

anyone born in Scotland can claim citizenship when the are 18 (or if it suits the nats when they are 16)

 

I am not sure what you are getting at with your last point, sorry.

 

16 to 18 year-olds are the potential future of the country, of course they should have a say in its destiny.

 

you have basicly said that anyone over 18 that works outside Scotland shouldn't have the vote because they are not as important..nice

 

[yoda-jag]

jb, could you provide the parameters of who should get a vote in your opinion?

 

where are the boundaries or red lines?

[jaggybunnet]

jb, could you provide the parameters of who should get a vote in your opinion?

 

where are the boundaries or red lines?

 

if you are Scottish, that is born in Scotland or at least one of there parents are Scottish.

 

there is still time for people to register as long as they can provide proof of the above.

 

more difficult would be those Non Scottish that have lived here all there life but you could put a 5 year min in residence limit.

 

its not hard is it

 

i would use the above to define for the national team as well

Edited August 18, 2013 by jaggybunnet

[Guy Incognito]

you have basicly said that anyone over 18 that works outside Scotland shouldn't have the vote because they are not as important..nice

 

Have I? Where?

 

Let's face it JB, if the government opened the referendum up to ex-pats you would arguing the reverse. The criteria, whilst not ideal, seems reasonable to me.

[jaggybunnet]

Have I? Where?

 

16 to 18 year-olds are the potential future of the country, of course they should have a say in its destiny.

 

your Quote, by agreeing to change the laws to allow them the vote (only for the ref) but denying those that work/live outside Scotland your are doing just that.

 

Let's face it JB, if the government opened the referendum up to ex-pats you would arguing the reverse. Why would i? The criteria, whilst not ideal, seems reasonable to me. we will agree to disagree then and what reason can you give for not allowing them the vote?

[Norgethistle]

From a personnel point of view the fact that living in Norway (With full residence) I don't get a vote in the referendum OR in Norwegian elections as I am not a Norwegian citizen (Don't hold a Norwegian Passport), but if I was a Norwegian living in Scotland I could be registered to vote on a referendum that does not affect me

[twinny]

so let me get this right, we are happy to change the law to allow 16 to 18 year olds to vote because "this is one of the most important votes for the Scottish people" but we cant be bothered to sort something out for the thousands of SCOTTISH people who (in some cases ) are only away due to work commitments...oh and if you think that every one can pick and chose where they work then you are wrong, for some its a choice of work where they tell you or the dole and if you don't have to make that choice than i am very happy for you

 

16-18 year olds are in a weird position. Allowed to have sex, get married, but not allowed to buy/watch porn. Allowed to sign up for the forces, leave school and pay taxes in a full time job, but not allowed to vote on those who make decisions on the forces or taxation. Either you believe 16 your olds should not be allowed to marry and join the forces or you believe they should be allowed to vote. Anything in between is hypocrisy, but that's not the point of this thread.

 

Those who are away due to work commitments, if it's short term they will have some form of residence in Scotland. If they've moved permanently, why should they get a vote?

 

JB, there is no database containing the names and contact details of everyone across the world who is Scottish or has a Scottish parent. This would be impossible to set up. I would love to see you set out exactly how you propose to have every expat in the world vote by post or proxy. It is impossible.

[twinny]

but if I was a Norwegian living in Scotland I could be registered to vote on a referendum that does not affect me

 

How would a yes vote in the Independence referendum not affect a Norwegian living in Scotland? You might disagree with their eligibility but eligibility in all UK elections is determined at Westminster not Holyrood, so the finger cannot be pointed at those in charge of this referendum.

 

I have just checked, and the electoral commission seem to be saying that a Norwegian would not be entitled to vote in a General Election or a local government election.

[yoda-jag]

if you are Scottish, that is born in Scotland or at least one of there parents are Scottish.

 

there is still time for people to register as long as they can provide proof of the above.

 

more difficult would be those Non Scottish that have lived here all there life but you could put a 5 year min in residence limit.

 

its not hard is it

 

i would use the above to define for the national team as well

 

sorry jb, but that proposal is riddled with faults imo.

 

could you provide evidence of other country who have had an independance vote, and had the exact same criteria you propose?

 

you are saying (for example) someone who has never set foot in scotland, and who may have no emotional or patriotic feelings towards scotland, has never contributed or has any intention to contribute to the wellbeing of scotland (in monetary ways or any other multiple ways) should get a vote??!!

 

how many hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people do you think this will be? think about it ..... even if born in scotland, they could have left with their parents while a toddler, primary school age or even secondary level when they emigrated to australia, usa, africa, all over europe, far east, etc ..... think of the logistical (let alone cost of) nightmare that would be. why should such people be entitled to be part of the decision of what scotland becomes? they could have been out the country for 5 or 50 years easily by now. and they could have offspring of 2, 4 or however many ..... yet you think such people (and their offspring) are as equally entitled to vote as someone who has lived all their lives (or even majority, or even last 5 years) in scotland? even providing "evidence" of their family history, opens up very real potential for mass voting fraud.

 

it's not hard to come up with such a proposal as yours, but the validity, practicality and fairness of such a proposal is so wrong in so many ways, it is simply unjust and unworkable on so many levels.

 

the current voting criteria may not be wholly ideal for everyone, but on the whole, it is fair for the majority who will ultmately be the ones who live in scotland and who will contribute to the economy and be part of its social fabric going forward as a independent country.

Edited August 19, 2013 by yoda-jag

[yoda-jag]

16-18 year olds are in a weird position. Allowed to have sex, get married, but not allowed to buy/watch porn. Allowed to sign up for the forces, leave school and pay taxes in a full time job, but not allowed to vote on those who make decisions on the forces or taxation. Either you believe 16 your olds should not be allowed to marry and join the forces or you believe they should be allowed to vote. Anything in between is hypocrisy, but that's not the point of this thread.

 

Those who are away due to work commitments, if it's short term they will have some form of residence in Scotland. If they've moved permanently, why should they get a vote?

 

JB, there is no database containing the names and contact details of everyone across the world who is Scottish or has a Scottish parent. This would be impossible to set up. I would love to see you set out exactly how you propose to have every expat in the world vote by post or proxy. It is impossible.

 

good post twinny

[Norgethistle]

sorry jb, but that proposal is riddled with faults imo.

 

could you provide evidence of other country who have had an independance vote, and had the exact same criteria you propose?

 

you are saying (for example) someone who has never set foot in scotland, and who may have no emotional or patriotic feelings towards scotland, has never contributed or has any intention to contribute to the wellbeing of scotland (in monetary ways or any other multiple ways) should get a vote??!!

 

how many hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people do you think this will be? think about it ..... even if born in scotland, they could have left with their parents while a toddler, primary school age or even secondary level when they emigrated to australia, usa, africa, all over europe, far east, etc ..... think of the logistical (let alone cost of) nightmare that would be. why should such people be entitled to be part of the decision of what scotland becomes? they could have been out the country for 5 or 50 years easily by now. and they could have offspring of 2, 4 or however many ..... yet you think such people (and their offspring) are as equally entitled to vote as someone who has lived all their lives (or even majority, or even last 5 years) in scotland? even providing "evidence" of their family history, opens up very real potential for mass voting fraud.

 

it's not hard to come up with such a proposal as yours, but the validity, practicality and fairness of such a proposal is so wrong in so many ways, it is simply unjust and unworkable on so many levels.

 

the current voting criteria may not be wholly ideal for everyone, but on the whole, it is fair for the majority who will ultmately be the ones who live in scotland and who will contribute to the economy and be part of its social fabric going forward as a independent country.

 

We should be doing a "King Herod" style vote where everyone that wants to vote needs to come back to Scotland register and vote....... think of the boost to the economy that wouold generate, 20 million Scots and their decendants turning up over 1 month period, need to ensure its a hung vote and needs to be done again

[Guy Incognito]

your Quote, by agreeing to change the laws to allow them the vote (only for the ref) but denying those that work/live outside Scotland your are doing just that.

 

Unless I am very much mistaken, the vote will only be open to 16 and 17 year-olds resident in Scotland, the same as it is with other 'adults'. It is not a question of 'importance'.

 

For what its worth, I would extend the suffrage to 16 and 17 year-olds for parliamentary elections as well.

 

 

[German Jag]

I moved to Germany at the end of 1990. Since then I've lived and worked in Germany, Australia, India & China (where I am just now, working for a German company).

I'm fortunate enough to have a job which allows me to travel back on a relatively regular basis (should I want) or as and when football, funerals, weddings etc. dictate.

If I was eligible to vote, then I would be voting YES! but honestly do not believe that I should have that privilege and that only those currently resident & registered to vote should be able to.

 

Trying to implement a vote along the lines of JB's criteria would be impractical, expensive and open to abuse.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

This is such a massive vote Scots in other parts of the UK should have the vote especially as the movement of Scots in the UK is so fluid where we have close to half a million Scots in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The fact the SNP have mooted an independent Scotland would allow citizenship to people living abroad and with heritage I find their voting rules slightly disingenuous. It is too big a change to deny people the vote.

[twinny]

This is such a massive vote Scots in other parts of the UK should have the vote especially as the movement of Scots in the UK is so fluid where we have close to half a million Scots in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The fact the SNP have mooted an independent Scotland would allow citizenship to people living abroad and with heritage I find their voting rules slightly disingenuous. It is too big a change to deny people the vote.

 

How do you propose they change the rules to allow Scots in England/Wales to vote? There is no register of Scottish people. On your electoral registration you will be classed as British. You have a British passport. We could set up polling stations in London and Birmingham and require that all those wishing to vote bring their birth certificate and a form of photo ID. That's about as practical as it gets.

 

Edited to add: The French do it, but they've had a system set up for a while now. Pretty difficult to do for an election pertaining to a member state within a union where there is no infrastructure in place to do it.

Edited August 20, 2013 by twinny

[Norgethistle]

How do you propose they change the rules to allow Scots in England/Wales to vote? There is no register of Scottish people. On your electoral registration you will be classed as British. You have a British passport. We could set up polling stations in London and Birmingham and require that all those wishing to vote bring their birth certificate and a form of photo ID. That's about as practical as it gets.

 

Edited to add: The French do it, but they've had a system set up for a while now. Pretty difficult to do for an election pertaining to a member state within a union where there is no infrastructure in place to do it.

 

Maybe the whole of the UK should vote after all it does affect all of the country, we may vote YES but England doesn't want us to leave or more likely we vote NO but the English public does want us out

[Guy Incognito]

 

 

Maybe the whole of the UK should vote after all it does affect all of the country, we may vote YES but England doesn't want us to leave or more likely we vote NO but the English public does want us out

 

That is what some opinion polls would appear to indicate.

[Norgethistle]

That is what some opinion polls would appear to indicate.

 

But in all honesty the vote will affect ALL the UK so maybe it should be for ALL folk living in the UK