Turning Point?

[Firhillista]

There's no getting away from the fact that Thistle are at a turning point in their history. Setting aside concerns about the current squad/manager/board (let's face it - they all come and go), the club are caught up in a significant change in football history. As far as Thistle are concerned, it started about the time of Save the Jags - for various reasons at that time we lost our identity. The shock of nearly going extinct made folk see the Thistle view - romantic cavalier over pragmatic realism (what others sometimes called the 'Cuddly toy'image) - as out-of-date sentimental complacency. Thistle fans wanted the club to be taken seriously. Just like 'any other club'. Which was perfectly understandable - nearly going bust was a serious business, nothing to laugh about. But we lost a sense of who we are, and with it a lot (and I mean a LOT) of fans. Watching the Jags used to be qualitatively different from watching other teams. Now it's no different from any other struggling Scottish First Division team - with the notable exception that the majority of those have better players than us.

 

But it's not just Thistle. The times they are a'changin' and not for the better, in my view. Anyone having watched the pallid displays of 'the beautiful game' at recent World Cups will know that international football no longer has the status that it once had - at least in the eyes of players and coaches. It's all about money now, so the big European leagues and the Champions League are now all that matter. Here in Scotland, Rangers are a financial disgrace, Celtic are spending , what seems to me, vast sums of money on non-Scottish players none of whom I've ever heard of, Hibs get humped by a Slovenian team (a country half the size of Scotland) and the manager says that he's not too bothered because it's all good preparation for the season ahead, and so it goes. So in the future will we all be Manchester/Chelsea/Milan/Madrid/Barcelona fans, trooping off to the pub to drink watery beer and cheer on 'our' teams who rake in millions each season and prostitute themselves around the globe during the close season for a few dollars more?

 

What do we do? Well, for me, the short answer is to turn up tonight to see Thistle play Berwick Rangers in the Diddie Cup and get pathetically excited/depressed depending on the outcome. I'm 55. Maybe the future's not for me. But I'm going to hang on as long as I can to the kind of football that matters - romantic cavalier/stupid impractical nonsense. And if anyone tries to take it away, I'm going to make some noise about it (and I don't care if I don't have a plan). I don't expect to be alone.

[Alan Murray]

Good post, been thinking along these lines as well. There will be a turning point I think for us, but this may be a few seasons away. We need to try to hold on to our first division status. If we go down I really don’t know what will happen.

 

Think we are heading for admin in the next few years, along with a good few other Scottish clubs. Not sure there is much we can do at this point to stop it.

[Jaggyman]

IMO football in this country has been in decline for years especially at lower level.Now its catching up with the old firm who are signing nobodies they might turn out good players but not many of us have heard of them. The days of a Laudrup or Larrson gracing the scottish game are gone and unless something is done to make it better then i really fear for the majority of clubs. I can see Thistle being part time in a season or two in fact that could apply to most of the teams from 1st Division down. I have no idea what the answer is but what i do know is that i am sick and tired of playing a team 4 times a season. Maybe we should be playing less games per season after all whats the saying" less is more".I wont be going to the Falkirk cup game cos i know i've got another 2 chances to see them at firhill later in the season. Scrap the alba cup, play cis cup ties at weekends up to q/f stages anyway. Firhill is not the place it once was the fans used to get behind the team if we went a goal down nowadays they call some players all sorts even if we are winning. As i said earlier i have no idea what the answer but for me things need changing

[gianlucatoni]

The days of turning up, handing over yer hard earned as a contribution to the club you love and getting behind the team 100% win or lose are gone and I agree with Firhillista the tipping point has already come and gone.

 

Nowadays, sadly, people seem to think that by handing over a few sheckles it gives them a controlloing interest in the club with the power to hire and fire along with the inherent right to heckle in an ever more viscious manner ... the days of entertaining shed shouts like "haw you come up here and sing" are no more. Add into the mix the loudmouths charter (the forum) where a dislike of a player becomes instantly national - leading to fans of the same club bickering in disagreement like 2 year olds over a biscuit - and we are in a very sad state of affairs indeed.

 

Scottish football is indeed shafted but there are simply too many clubs chasing too little cash and the whole pack of cards will start to fall soon. I do hope my team are not in the crosshairs when the banks come chapping at doors.

[Allan Heron]

play cis cup ties at weekends up to q/f stages anyway.

 

I've always been an advocate of returning the CIS Cup to the old format of a mini league before moving into knockout stages. That makes the tournament a bit different from the Scottish Cup and also adds a few more guaranteed games for everyone.

 

That, allied with an expansion of the leagues together (my preference would be for 16/18 team leagues) with teams just playing home and away seems a more productive system than what we have in place.

 

Of course, less games means less income unless these kind of changes could generate increased crowds and thus revenue. I'm not sure I could see that happening even in my most optimistic moments though.

 

I think it's going to be inevitate that clubs outwith the SPL will need to go part time - the economics don't seem to justify any real alternative without some sugar daddy who's happy to keep funding clubs. And that path has it's own considerable risks as there will always come a point when they will say that enough is enough. It may probably take a few clubs to go out of business to drive this - certainly, there is clearly a reluctance to be the first team to make this jump.

 

I also think the clubs at greatest risk are those in the first division who aspire to greater things - which will be the majority of the clubs. Those in the lower leagues are probably more used to cutting the cloth to suit over the years and are in all likelihood better equipped to survive both the current economic climate and the wide range of options which increasingly look more attractive than going to a game on a Saturday afternoon.

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

Watching the Jags used to be qualitatively different from watching other teams.

Was it though? In what way?

[B.C.G. JAG]

Add into the mix the loudmouths charter (the forum) where a dislike of a player becomes instantly national - leading to fans of the same club bickering in disagreement like 2 year olds over a biscuit - and we are in a very sad state of affairs indeed.

 

Let's not get overly Luddite here, had the technology existed in the past then I'm sure everyone would be bickering about the 'Paton's Left Foot' of the day. Part of supporting your team has been wanting it to play the best it can, always has, always will. It would obviously be nicer if some of the criticism's of individual players on here was a bit more constructive rather than hysterical, but I wouldn't worry too much as I seriously doubt any players pay much attention to what's on here anyway. This place is just an extension of the pub after the game, where you wouldn't normally expect to find the players, management or directors popping in for some advice. We can shed a tear for bygone days or we can accept that the whole world has changed dramatically. There's no reason why we shouldn't embrace new technology as a positive thing - can you imagine the state of the Thistle Community these days without a bit of online banter?

Edited August 10, 2010 by B.C.G. JAG

[Robert Dunn's Potential]

 

Nowadays, sadly, people seem to think that by handing over a few sheckles it gives them a controlloing interest in the club with the power to hire and fire along with the inherent right to heckle in an ever more viscious manner

You're talking about Allan Cowan, Tom Hughes and Brown McMaster there right??

[B.C.G. JAG]

You're talking about Allan Cowan, Tom Hughes and Brown McMaster there right??

[Allan Heron]

Was it though? In what way?

 

I don't believe that it is - I'm sure most fans will think that about their team

[Wiltshire Jag]

I'm 55 as well (well will be next month). There's no getting away from it that football isn't the experience it was when we were lads. For all the passion shown on this and other teams' sites there is not the attachment (for me) to the players that you got when you had players that were there for years. The passion for the club is not, in my view, being transferred to the players as you can't get attached to them as they are unlikely to be there for more than two seasons. The Forsythes and Hansens of this day wouldn't be allowed to grow with Thistle and then be transferred at a profit, they're nabbed at too young an age by big name clubs and languish in reserves or go on loan. How can any fan connect with Balatoni if we know he's off in January, no matter how great he plays for us? How can any kid have a favourite Jags player nowadays - they're never there long enough. No more Jackie Campbells. I haven't a clue who's who when I come up for my all too infrequent 4 visits a season.

 

It's a good post by Firhillista which I think may also be the view of a lot of older fans.

 

It's a sad day when players leave Firhill to improve their lot by going to Inverness, Dundee and Falkirk.

 

And playing each other 4 times a season is just a 'kin joke - always has been.

And no, I don't have any answers apart from suggesting that each Leagues' revenue is shared equally for the next 10 years to try and even the field.

[Firhillista]

Was it though? In what way?

 

Can we just be clear about this - YES IT WAS! There was a time when telling someone you supported the Jags got the same reaction - a smile and a shake of the head. Thistle fans were considered amiable loonies. Folk that could put up with the suffering and still get a laugh out of it. And as a result most folk were happy to see the Jags win, as long as it wasn't their team getting beaten, of course. Nowadays Thistle are just another team. Actually, we're probably DISLIKED by a significant part of the football-supporting nation for reasons that I struggle to grasp - can't be because of our superiority on the pitch. Save the Jags changed everything utterly. It wasn't that Jags fans didn't care about losing - that was an accusation that too many non-Thistle folk, notably Chick Young, used to throw at us, but we didn't see victory as an inalienable right, it was something to be joyfully celebrated when it came along precisely because it was rare. Currently, Thistle fans see a defeat as a nail in the coffin, another step towards extinction. No wonder there's not too many laughs. But, again, let's be clear - supporting Thistle used to be something special. I'd like to think it might be that again, but I have my doubts.

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

Actually, we're probably DISLIKED by a significant part of the football-supporting nation for reasons that I struggle to grasp

Perhaps it's due to those fans who try and differentiate us from the thousands of others who choose to spend their afternoons supporting a 'wee' team. I'm sure they don't mean it, but they can give off an air of exclusivity, elitism and snobbery.

 

For me, supporting Thistle's never been about making a statement. I come from a long-line of Maryhill men who supported their local team because they were exactly that - local. Not because they revelled in the witty banter of the terraces.

 

I'm sure they griped and groaned about the onset of a new time of fandom, just as you're doing here.

[John Blutarsky]

Let's not get overly Luddite here, had the technology existed in the past then I'm sure everyone would be bickering about the 'Paton's Left Foot' of the day. Part of supporting your team has been wanting it to play the best it can, always has, always will. It would obviously be nicer if some of the criticism's of individual players on here was a bit more constructive rather than hysterical, but I wouldn't worry too much as I seriously doubt any players pay much attention to what's on here anyway. This place is just an extension of the pub after the game, where you wouldn't normally expect to find the players, management or directors popping in for some advice. We can shed a tear for bygone days or we can accept that the whole world has changed dramatically. There's no reason why we shouldn't embrace new technology as a positive thing - can you imagine the state of the Thistle Community these days without a bit of online banter?

 

firstly, i think gianlucs comment are a fair reflection of the direction that this and other fans fora have taken. the calibre of debate found in the early days of fans fora, like OLAS & .net, is more likely to be seen on fans blogs these days. sadly, so far as i'm aware no thistle related blog exists. Luddite would certainly describe the character of the content on some forums.

i'm not so sure what you say about players paying much attention. i've seen mccall checking the old jagsforum only a couple of hours after the game (in the pub)and players - simon storey, boab mcculloch - posted on .net/jagsforum, a sure indication that there is an awareness of fans fora at least amongst some players.

don't know where you drink but fans fora are most certainly not an extension of the pub after the game. nobody i go for a pint with after the game has a ridiculous nickname, fires off personal insults with impunity behind a cloak of anonymity or role-plays with a completely made up identity. if some people behaved in the pub the way they do here, they'd get lifted.

finally, firhillista's original post and some of the subsequent posts on this thread chime with me insofar as the jags plight has to be seen in the context of the demise of scottish football generally. while the game is constantly evolving in much of the rest of the world, not always for the better in some aspects, we insist on playing kick and rush and have a league structure that was last relevant to society and lifetyles as it was in the 1960's. worse than that, those in charge think that a little tinkering every few years with the top tier is the solution.

[gianlucatoni]

Let's not get overly Luddite here, had the technology existed in the past then I'm sure everyone would be bickering about the 'Paton's Left Foot' of the day. Part of supporting your team has been wanting it to play the best it can, always has, always will. It would obviously be nicer if some of the criticism's of individual players on here was a bit more constructive rather than hysterical, but I wouldn't worry too much as I seriously doubt any players pay much attention to what's on here anyway. This place is just an extension of the pub after the game, where you wouldn't normally expect to find the players, management or directors popping in for some advice. We can shed a tear for bygone days or we can accept that the whole world has changed dramatically. There's no reason why we shouldn't embrace new technology as a positive thing - can you imagine the state of the Thistle Community these days without a bit of online banter?

 

I think you are being a bit disingenuous in trying to equalise a drink in the pub with your mates discussing the ills of the team with an 'extended' online community of faceless jags fans all offering a different (as you say in many cases hysterical) perspective ... I was hardly harking back to the old days of McQuade and Rough, 3 TV channels and not having a proverbial pot to p**s in ... I indeed wish, as you do, that people would think a bit more deeply before adding a reply

[Robert Dunn's Potential]

At the risk of being serious for a moment then, I don't think there's any doubt that there are people on the board right now who are no longer an asset to the club because they are perceived so negatively by the support that even though they are only directors, they are a reason for folk not to go to the games. Whether you think that is right or not, it's a fact. Whether you think these people are "real fans" or not doesn't matter either because it's these people on the margins who, if we can get them back to Firhill, will bring the gate money that gives us a chance to break even without concocted and, at best, dubious property deals.

 

The idea that no-one else is capable of doing Allan Cowan's job is presumably accepted as being false. There are people within the Thistle fanbase with a great deal more charisma and natural people skills who could do the simple job of engaging with the support from time to time and demonstrating that there is not a great gulf between the fans and the directors.

 

I know of several qualified accountants within the Thistle support whom I believe could be persuaded to take over the financial direction of the club and replace Tom Hughes who has said to many people before that he would step down where replacements were possible. These replacements are out there but they are never sought.

 

With a fresh impetus on the financial planning side of the club as well as a fresh face fronting the club we have half a chance of engaging with the lapsed fans but it appears to me that these guys do not want to stand down. This means, to me at least, that they either don't recognise that they are a major part of the problem in terms of how many fans feel about their club or that they no longer care about the club as much as they did in 1997.

 

It is sad that their involvement with Thistle began as a self-sacrifice and is ending up in self-preservation.

[Jaggyman]

I think you are being a bit disingenuous in trying to equalise a drink in the pub with your mates discussing the ills of the team with an 'extended' online community of faceless jags fans all offering a different (as you say in many cases hysterical) perspective ... I was hardly harking back to the old days of McQuade and Rough, 3 TV channels and not having a proverbial pot to p**s in ... I indeed wish, as you do, that people would think a bit more deeply before adding a reply

 

 

I must admit i have on a few occasions posted something and then when i've cooled down and actually thought about it clearly, i wished i hadnt. C'est La Vie

[B.C.G. JAG]

I think you are being a bit disingenuous in trying to equalise a drink in the pub with your mates discussing the ills of the team with an 'extended' online community of faceless jags fans

 

Well, I do have a habit of getting pretty faceless in the pub...

[Semi Nurainen]

Some good points here, Allan Heron the voice of reason as ever (but do let us into the secret of attaining those ‘optimistic moments’ - I never took you for someone who used stimulants!) Yes part time football is just around the corner for anyone outside the SPL, it’s just a case of who blinks first.

 

Mr Blutarsky’s comments interesting too, though to – shall we say – ‘lampoon’ people who fire off personal insults with impunity behind … a completely made up identity, and then to fire off insults about people with made up identities from behind a completely made up identity – I mean, are you trying to say that Semi Nurainen isn’t a real person?! Read your Thistle history or ask Robert Reid! And while we’re at it Bluto, if you can evince such studied pedantry as to write the plural of ‘forum’, as ‘fora’, you’d think you know to use a capital letter after a full stop, or at least at the beginning of a paragraph!!

 

Aye, no more Jackie Campbells. Maybe it’s time for us 55 years olds to pack up and retire to The Clansman.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Semi Nurainen

[Ancipital]

Can you imagine what the debates over Bobby Law would have been like had internet forums been around then?

[Norman]

Couple of points

1. I don't think anyone should consider the members of this forum as representative of the Thistle fan-base. I doubt it's even representative of the Thistle fan-base who enjoy participating on internet forums.

 

2. A lot of people have mentioned it as a "doomsday scenario", but I honestly believe that Scottish football is headed for part-time status in all but the top division. Much as I would like to consider Thistle as a top division team, the current set up only allows us occasional forays to that league. I'll get pelters for saying it, but I can us part-time within 2 seasons.

[Guest Argus]

Couple of points

1. I don't think anyone should consider the members of this forum as representative of the Thistle fan-base. I doubt it's even representative of the Thistle fan-base who enjoy participating on internet forums.

 

2. A lot of people have mentioned it as a "doomsday scenario", but I honestly believe that Scottish football is headed for part-time status in all but the top division. Much as I would like to consider Thistle as a top division team, the current set up only allows us occasional forays to that league. I'll get pelters for saying it, but I can us part-time within 2 seasons.

 

I have a gut feeling thats where the Board wants to take us depsite previous denials.

Frankly its the only way we could survive.

Far too many so called full time footballers are no better than their part time counterparts of the past, so you have to ask what difference being full time makes, if you don't have much in the way of skill in the first place.

[Robert Dunn's Potential]

Couple of points

1. I don't think anyone should consider the members of this forum as representative of the Thistle fan-base. I doubt it's even representative of the Thistle fan-base who enjoy participating on internet forums.

The first point bothers me because it presumes 2 things that I don't think are true:

 

1 - That the board are, to an extent, ignoring the perceived moaners on internet forums like this because they are listening to and prioritising other sections of the support. As far as I can tell, there are no Thistle fans being prioritised by the club at the moment and the level of fans' involvement with the club is at an all time low.

 

2 - That the club can afford to ignore the whims of any potential paying customer. I'm not suggesting that the club can please all of the people all of the time or that every suggestion or complaint that crops up on a forum, at an open meeting or overheard in the pub should be turned into PTFC policy but members of the board have made a habit of disparaging those who dare to criticise the club in recent times. There are other options - engage with people, make it clear that you're listening and explain why you don't agree.

 

Thistle fans aren't stupid. We know the limitations at play here and we understand that finances are tight. What I can't understand is why the wagons are still circled and the fans pushed away. This board are in danger of being the band that played while the Titanic went down.

[Watson Towers]

cool thread. What a refreshing change from the mongo "Sack the Board" and "Paton is a fud" threads that threaten to grind us down to internet and football oblivion!

[Allan Heron]

I have a gut feeling thats where the Board wants to take us depsite previous denials.

Frankly its the only way we could survive.

Far too many so called full time footballers are no better than their part time counterparts of the past, so you have to ask what difference being full time makes, if you don't have much in the way of skill in the first place.

 

It has been stated in the previous AGM's that the club could operate at break even if we went part time but that they are reluctant to go down this route. The problem is how much damage is done until this becomes an inevitable outcome. (Of course, that would still leave the debt to be managed but operating at break even would mean that this wouldn't increase and could be managed downwards without too much additional pressure from the bank)

 

There are transitional issues as we have players on contracts which would need to continue to be met. I had actually expected that we'd have been looking for a mix of full- and part-time for this season but that hasn't happened.

 

I think there is a fear factor involved here in a couple of areas - they don't believe the fans would accept this, and also they see that most of our competitors are in the same situation but there's an reluctance to be the first to make the jump as it's believed this would put us at a disadvantage. Might be instructive if fans would accept a move to part time in the interests of the longer term survival of the club.

 

The end result is that I believe that we must be budgetting for a loss for the coming season and investing in some prayer mats for good cup runs, but in the absence of that this just reinforces the steady decline that we're on.

 

It's an interesting point re part-time v full-time players. I was very taken with the attitude of Des McKeown in his book and his desperation to just continue playing. I think that attitude might suggest that the top level of part-time player is possibly at least as good as the bottom rung of the full time ranks.