Damned United

[Jaggernaut]

Anybody watch the Brian Clough movie last night? I really quite enjoyed it, though as usual in football films, some of the characters weren't believable (e.g., Bremner). It was definitely superior to the Matt Busby one a few weeks ago.

 

Anyway, is it just me, or did they portray the relationship between Clough and Taylor as just a wee bit too, err.... sentimental?

 

Fascinating times, and the boy done great afterwards; in some ways a shame that the film didn't continue to show the European Cup triumphs with NF, but maybe actually more impactful with the simple statement at the end.

 

Hope that didn't spoil the ending for anybody!

[lennythistle]

Anybody watch the Brian Clough movie last night? I really quite enjoyed it, though as usual in football films, some of the characters weren't believable (e.g., Bremner). It was definitely superior to the Matt Busby one a few weeks ago.

 

Anyway, is it just me, or did they portray the relationship between Clough and Taylor as just a wee bit too, err.... sentimental?

 

Fascinating times, and the boy done great afterwards; in some ways a shame that the film didn't continue to show the European Cup triumphs with NF, but maybe actually more impactful with the simple statement at the end.

 

Hope that didn't spoil the ending for anybody!

 

I saw it about a year ago. I quite enjoyed it but didn't like how it portrayed Bremner.

 

Regards the Busby one you mention, was that the BBC drama that starred David Tennant ? If so I really enjoyed that. Thought it gave a different view on those tragic events.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Anyway, is it just me, or did they portray the relationship between Clough and Taylor as just a wee bit too, err.... sentimental?

Yes but not quite as sentimental a relationship as Don Revie appeared to have with the Leeds players thighs. Got me thinking that a dressing down from Jock Stein and the hairdryer treatment from Fergie might actually be literal.

[Jaggernaut]

I saw it about a year ago. I quite enjoyed it but didn't like how it portrayed Bremner.

 

Regards the Busby one you mention, was that the BBC drama that starred David Tennant ? If so I really enjoyed that. Thought it gave a different view on those tragic events.

Yes, that was it. I watched it ( and half enjoyed it) all the way through because of the incredible story that it told, but I thought it was too laboured, painfully so at times. Also, as Busby's son said afterwards, Busby was portrayed as some kind of aloof, sheepskin-coated figure who flitted in and out just for pep talks, whereas in reality he was a tracksuited manager who got down to the nitty gritty of routines and practice with the players.

 

But in the close season it's good to get almost any kind of football on the box!

[chunky jag]

Quite liked the Munich air disaster one, thought David Tennant was good. I agree though Busby appeared to just float around when he fancied, wasn't very inspirational.

 

Thought The Damned United was interesting, I love any football based film or documentary and I know the facts weren't 100% true, but was a good watch. I don't really have a lot of time for people with big ego's, he did seem an arrogant ******* at times. And I wasn't alive at the times, but were Leeds any worse than any other team in the 70s? Seemed like his mouth ruined what could have been a great career at leeds. some record though no taking that away from him

[erzamacaroonbars]

I was alive at the time (its only since that I've not been) and yes Leeds were worse that all the other teams, when they had to be! They played some excellent football but if under pressure resorted to desperate tactics more akin to the Argentina's, Italy's and Spains of the time! The Cup Final and its replay vs Chelsea was like watching an educational video on how to commit assault and battery in a public place!

I recently watched the film and really enjoyed it, although I agree Clough's arrogance takes some getting used to his record as a striker must be one of the best in British football as is his record as a manager. I wasn't too impressed at the portrayal of Billy Bremner but I have no idea if he was like that, I don't suppose Johnny Giles would have been too impressed either!

Anyway, isn't it just as well England didn't give him the job, thay might have had a decent team if they had!

[Allan Heron]

I was alive at the time (its only since that I've not been) and yes Leeds were worse that all the other teams, when they had to be! They played some excellent football but if under pressure resorted to desperate tactics more akin to the Argentina's, Italy's and Spains of the time! The Cup Final and its replay vs Chelsea was like watching an educational video on how to commit assault and battery in a public place!

I recently watched the film and really enjoyed it, although I agree Clough's arrogance takes some getting used to his record as a striker must be one of the best in British football as is his record as a manager. I wasn't too impressed at the portrayal of Billy Bremner but I have no idea if he was like that, I don't suppose Johnny Giles would have been too impressed either!

Anyway, isn't it just as well England didn't give him the job, thay might have had a decent team if they had!

 

There's loads of footage of Leeds in full-on thug mode. But they were a terrific football team as well.

 

I've always taken a huge interest in both Clough and the Leeds team - between them, there's a fair number of books. The combination does make for a terrific and interesting story - you'd think that the mixture of a great team and a great manager would be a recipe for success, but it just goes to prove that there's always a magic ingredient that is either present or not. It clearly wasn't in this case.

 

As with all of these things there's a number of different views on incidents and some radically divergent opinion. Giles, for example, took great exception to the way he was portrayed in the book and took legal action. Having said that, he was extremely generous about Clough in the ITV documentary on him. However, the players interview on the BBC one were quick to defend how Bremner was treated in the film but made no specific mention of Giles (although, the counter might be that the programme was concentrating on the film rather than the book).

 

I think it's certainly the case that Clough's introductory speech to the players was one of the biggest tactical mistakes he ever made in his career.

 

Re the Man Utd documentary, I thought the drama was less about Busby than about the key roles played by Murphy as the man who undoubtedly held the club together in the aftermath of Munich, and talismanic role played by Charlton when he returned. When you think of the term dignity as it applies to football, the name of Bobby Charlton that's right there at the top.

 

I think Busby's role was always going to be less prominent in such circumstances. But I have read elsewhere that it was Murphy who took the majority of training of the players. But, at the end of the day, I think ascribing who precisely did what is less important than recognising that Busby and Murphy were as superb and well balanced a team as Clough and Taylor were.

[Jaggernaut]

 

Re the Man Utd documentary, I thought the drama was less about Busby than about the key roles played by Murphy as the man who undoubtedly held the club together in the aftermath of Munich, and talismanic role played by Charlton when he returned. When you think of the term dignity as it applies to football, the name of Bobby Charlton that's right there at the top.

 

I think Busby's role was always going to be less prominent in such circumstances. But I have read elsewhere that it was Murphy who took the majority of training of the players. But, at the end of the day, I think ascribing who precisely did what is less important than recognising that Busby and Murphy were as superb and well balanced a team as Clough and Taylor were.

That's about how I saw it too, and it did give much-deserved recognition to Murphy.

 

Yesterday I received Bobby Charlton's (latest?) autobiography as a birthday present. Really looking forward to reading it.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I was alive at the time (its only since that I've not been) and yes Leeds were worse that all the other teams, when they had to be! They played some excellent football but if under pressure resorted to desperate tactics more akin to the Argentina's, Italy's and Spains of the time! The Cup Final and its replay vs Chelsea was like watching an educational video on how to commit assault and battery in a public place!

I recently watched the film and really enjoyed it, although I agree Clough's arrogance takes some getting used to his record as a striker must be one of the best in British football as is his record as a manager. I wasn't too impressed at the portrayal of Billy Bremner but I have no idea if he was like that, I don't suppose Johnny Giles would have been too impressed either!

Anyway, isn't it just as well England didn't give him the job, thay might have had a decent team if they had!

Much as i remember. Revie was of course dodgy and had been implicated in match fixing. As for Leeds being filthy there was no doubt. Throughout the sixties and seventies most teams would have a "hard men" in their side and that was tolerated. Roy Barry, Kenny Burns, Chopper Harris, Stiles, John Greig, Tommy Smith and Dave MacKay to name a few. These guys by and large weren't leg breakers just brutal tacklers.

What wasn't tolerated, or more correctly universally frowned upon, were ball players who regularly indulged in over the top sleekit tackles behind the ref's back stuff. Guys like Summerbee, Terry Paine and our own former manager, Mr Auld three very skilful but unbelievably dirty players are but a few examples.

Leeds United had Norman Hunter in the former category and he can be excused. But vitually right thru the rest of that team (Eddie Gray & Cooper as exceptions) were players who regularly resorted to the sneaky stuff. They got away with it as there was so many of them they could take it in turns. By far the filthiest of filthy was Giles who was probably their best player.

[Jaggernaut]

Much as i remember. Revie was of course dodgy and had been implicated in match fixing. As for Leeds being filthy there was no doubt. Throughout the sixties and seventies most teams would have a "hard men" in their side and that was tolerated. Roy Barry, Kenny Burns, Chopper Harris, Stiles, John Greig, Tommy Smith and Dave MacKay to name a few. These guys by and large weren't leg breakers just brutal tacklers.

What wasn't tolerated, or more correctly universally frowned upon, were ball players who regularly indulged in over the top sleekit tackles behind the ref's back stuff. Guys like Summerbee, Terry Paine and our own former manager, Mr Auld three very skilful but unbelievably dirty players are but a few examples.

Leeds United had Norman Hunter in the former category and he can be excused. But vitually right thru the rest of that team (Eddie Gray & Cooper as exceptions) were players who regularly resorted to the sneaky stuff. They got away with it as there was so many of them they could take it in turns. By far the filthiest of filthy was Giles who was probably their best player.

That got me thinking about Thistle hard men. Who were they? My memory really only starts from the mid to late 60s, and I remember that Tommy Gibb would never draw out of a tackle. Then I remember that Ronnie Glavin was feart of nobody, and would in fact often give more than he got all during a match. Actually, and I've never mentioned this before, Charlie Smith (RIP) was pretty dirty. I saw him "niggle" a couple of guys when the ball was miles away and neither ref nor linesman was looking. And I distinctly remember him spitting in an opponent's face; first time I'd ever seen that.

 

I was away for most of the 80's and 90s, but wasn't Steve Pitman meant to be hard? Who else, or who since?

Edited June 7, 2011 by Jaggernaut

[lady-isobel-barnett]

That got me thinking about Thistle hard men. Who were they? My memory really only starts from the mid to late 60s, and I remember that Tommy Gibb would never draw out of a tackle. Then I remember that Ronnie Glavin was feart of nobody, and would in fact often give more than he got all during a match. Actually, and I've never mentioned this before, Charlie Smith (RIP) was pretty dirty. I saw him "niggle" a couple of guys when the ball was miles away and neither ref nor linesman was looking. And I distinctly remember him spitting in an opponent's face; first time I'd ever seen that.

 

I was away for most of the 80's and 90s, but wasn't Steve Pitman meant to be hard? Who else, or who since?

I was actually struggling to think of a Jags player I could use as an example of a "hard man". Plenty of guys feart of nobody but someone that's just in the side to stop an opposing forward(s) and nothing else ? Probably it's only the wealthier clubs that can afford that luxury. All our hard players I can think of had at minimum a dual role or dual talent. If Boab McCulloch couldn't shoot to save himself then I'd say he'd have been as good a recent example as any.

Edited June 7, 2011 by lady-isobel-barnett

[uberteeb]

"You're a bloody disgrace".

 

Great film, seen it a couple of times but didnt watch it the other day.

 

Thought the BBC Busby one was fairly poor and was basically a bad rip off of the style of Damned United.

[lennythistle]

That got me thinking about Thistle hard men. Who were they? My memory really only starts from the mid to late 60s, and I remember that Tommy Gibb would never draw out of a tackle. Then I remember that Ronnie Glavin was feart of nobody, and would in fact often give more than he got all during a match. Actually, and I've never mentioned this before, Charlie Smith (RIP) was pretty dirty. I saw him "niggle" a couple of guys when the ball was miles away and neither ref nor linesman was looking. And I distinctly remember him spitting in an opponent's face; first time I'd ever seen that.

 

I was away for most of the 80's and 90s, but wasn't Steve Pitman meant to be hard? Who else, or who since?

 

Billy Abercrombie put in one of, if the not worst tackle on an opponent i've ever seen. If memory serves me right he ended the lads carear that day.

 

Chic had a nasty side to him. Bobby Law never backed out a challenge, nor did Albert Craig. John Workman and John McCormack from my earlier days watching the jags had a tough side to them. I would also add Duffy and Rae.

[Mr Bunny]

Billy Abercrombie put in one of, if the not worst tackle on an opponent i've ever seen. If memory serves me right he ended the lads carear that day.

 

Chic had a nasty side to him. Bobby Law never backed out a challenge, nor did Albert Craig. John Workman and John McCormack from my earlier days watching the jags had a tough side to them. I would also add Duffy and Rae.

 

We had quite a few tough players down the years but Abercrombie was hardly with us long enough to be considered a proper Jags player. Think we were giving him some games to see how he went with an eye to giving him a longer contract when he made that tackle.

 

Don't know whether we got rid of him because we were shocked at the tackle or because we couldn't affford to offer him a contract when he was going to be banned for a good while. That was one tackle that even guys who liked tough tackling players were shocked by.

 

One guy who springs to mind is Colin MacAdam. He played centre back for us for a while and seemed to me to always be in danger of giving away a penalty every game he played. I was greatly relieved to see him pushed up to play as forward - though shocked in a nicer way to see how well it turned out.

 

We got him from Motherwell who at the time had one of the dirtiest teams that ever played in that league. MacAdam, Gregor Stevens, Tom Forsyth (who actually got turned into a very good defender when he moved to the H*ns), Willie MacVie ... and others who I can't quite recall.

 

MacVie once kicked a Thistle player up in the air with the ball long gone upfield, and the ref standing just behind him. Never too bright that boy.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Mr Bunny

[lennythistle]

We had quite a few tough players down the years but Abercrombie was hardly with us long enough to be considered a Jags player. Thing we were giving him some games to see how he went with an eye to giving him a longer contract when he made that tackle.

 

Don't know whether we got rid of him because we were shocked at the tackle or because we couldn't affford to offer him a contract when he was going to be banned for a good while. That was one tackle that even guys who liked tough tackling players were shocked by.

 

If memory serves me right he was signed. Memory is a bit hazy but I think he signed with Brian Gallagher. again memory bit hazy but I think that tackle was done only a couple of weeks after the Simpson one on Durrant and Abercromby's was worse. Think your right bout fact that Abercromby never played for us again after the incident. Was never confirmed but I think he was shown the door following the tackle.

 

I was only in my early to mid teens at the time but I won't forget the horror in the main stand on the day and the reaction of the supporters.

[Allan Heron]

We had quite a few tough players down the years but Abercrombie was hardly with us long enough to be considered a proper Jags player.

.... but he still managed to leave his mark

[canman]

That got me thinking about Thistle hard men. Who were they? My memory really only starts from the mid to late 60s, and I remember that Tommy Gibb would never draw out of a tackle. Then I remember that Ronnie Glavin was feart of nobody, and would in fact often give more than he got all during a match. Actually, and I've never mentioned this before, Charlie Smith (RIP) was pretty dirty. I saw him "niggle" a couple of guys when the ball was miles away and neither ref nor linesman was looking. And I distinctly remember him spitting in an opponent's face; first time I'd ever seen that.

 

I was away for most of the 80's and 90s, but wasn't Steve Pitman meant to be hard? Who else, or who since?

I am surprised nobody has mentioned Frank Donlevy, early to mid 60s, never shirked a tackle and always seemed to be looking for a fight.