Scottish Independence

[Guy Incognito]

Hats off to Blackpool Jags for his earlier comments.

 

I don't like the chopping up of quotes from discussions on message boards as to me it happers the flow of the debate but I will reply back.

Apologies for the chopping up but you made a number of points in your previous point that I wanted to address and I felt that the chopping up method was the best way of doing so!

 

No. I've felt more comfortable in places in England than in places in Scotland, but also vice versa as there is nothing quite like being home. It can be down to how rough the place is and the vibe but I think we are much more similar to the English than we care or like to admit. When I thing about "Scotland" I really think about Glasgow. I hardly know the rest of the place and to be honest I'm not that bothered about say Aberdeen or Inverness. What have I got in common with a fisherman from Peterhead or a privately educated lawyer in Edinburgh or a gaelic speaker in Skye? As much as an accountant from Manchester and a civil servant from Cambridge.

I think anyone who is even remotely streetwise will take to a place depending on its roughness (and there are plenty of rough places on both sides of the border). When I think of Scotland I think mostly of Glasgow too, because it is where I am from and where I know best. However, I still reckon if I moved to, for instance, Aberdeen, then I would still feel more at home than if I moved to Manchester, even though Aberdeen would probably never feel like "home" in the same way Glasgow does.

 

You have said yourself though that you cannot understand why many Scots feel uncomfortable in England and there must be a reason for that. Yes, there are many similarities between the two nations but there are also many differences, enough to make some folk feel a bit like fish out of water. To me, that is indicative of two distinct nations.

 

I'm up every fornight these days so it's back to being part of normal life. Agreed London does skew things slightly and I want to emphasise I do not have this moral snobbery that if a place is predominantly white then it's a bad thing but things like sectariansim and obsession with nationality are not my thing and to me being part of the UK helps to dilute this. One of my good mates from Manchester is catholic. Took me six years to find out. In West of Scotland it's one of the first things you find out about people.

If you visit either the east end or the south side of our fine city on alternate Saturdays then it is true that you will encounter no shortage of people only too happy to inform you of their religious leanings. However, these people are morons (I am sure that is at least one thing we can agree on ) and as such, not the norm. A couple of months ago a work colleague of mine informed me that she was excited because her son was attending his first holy communion that weekend. I had worked with this lady for about five years and that was the first inkling I had that she was a catholic.

 

My theory is socialism in whatever form means people expect the state to do things for them. Obviously we need public and social services but people expect others to do things for them which is wrong especially when they can do it themselves and take responsibility. Nothing wrong with criticising elements of Scotland. Does not make me a traitor.

 

What you have described there is dependency culture, which is almost the complete antithesis of socialism. Socialism promotes collective morally responsibility and requires everyone to pull their weight; dependency culture is self-serving and exploitative. Where it comes from I don't know. Maybe it is an unfortunate bi-product of the pseudo-socialism of the corrupt New Labour party; or a lower class take on the 'no such thing as society; greed is good' ethos of the '80s Tories; or possibly a combination of the two.

 

No, there is nothing wrong with criticising Scotland and some aspects of Scottish life really do need criticising. I don't think you are a traitor either, FWIW. However, I do think you were quick to cite the lazy English tabloid stereotype of the feckless, drunken, drug addicted, pizza supper-scoffing Jocko as if that somehow defines us as a nation. Aye, there are a lot of people in Scotland who need to get their arses in gear and pronto but I don't believe that Scotland's chronic problems with alcohol and drug abuse are down to us being a nation of party animals; and if the status quo has created a situation where this set of circumstances has been allowed to exist and thrive, then what good will it do us to maintain it?

[Guy Incognito]

If the union continues, what changes? The central argument of those who oppose independence is, this is as good as it gets and voting for independence will only make things worse. Not the most inspiring rallying call, is it? The argument for Scottish self-determination has been won. None of the political parties - not Labour, nor the Tories, nor the Lib-Dems - are arguing that things should stay the same. The focus now is all on Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK and HOW this should be altered, not IF it should be. Personally, I can't see that a 'devolution-max' or 'independence-lite' model would bring the kind of advantages that full independence will, so I'm all for voting yes when the time comes.

 

And while I'm on about it, why do supporters of the union assume that their position is somehow not nationalistic? We're being asked to choose between two different brands of nationalism - Scottish or UK - not between nationalism and internationalism. I get why the word 'nationalism' bothers some folk, and it's certainly caused more than a few to accuse the SNP of being narrow, right-wing, feral chauvinists, in line with the Nazis and Serbian nationalists, etc., but the reality of what Scottish nationalism is about is so contrary to that view that surely even the most staunchly pro-union supporter must accept the falsity of that idea?

 

We have an opportunity over the next few years to fundamentally change how things are done in this country of ours and I honestly believe that if we take this opportunity not only will it improve things for people living in Scotland, it'll also improve things for those who live in the other constituent parts of the UK.

Top post.

 

I was worrying a bit last night talking to an old school friend in Balloch. Why am I so happy clappy????!!!! A lifetime of being the SNP underdug and then we're really popular all of a sudden. What can go wrong????? It's actually really difficult to imagine any major problems. We've just been through a severe recession, with maybe another one coming along. But the good ship Scotland is gliding through the waters serenely. It's weird I tell ye! It's brilliant to have a competent Government in Edinburgh that is basically trusted to do the right thing in tricky times. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself with Bank Holiday cheer but everyone seems really content these days. Anyhoo that's enough of the happy clappy stuff, must think of something to whinge about......

How about ... the shortage of decent centre-halves at Firhill, our goalkeeper seemingly forgetting how to catch a football and our forwards' reluctance to actually shoot the ball in the direction of the goal until they have at least four opposition defenders around them.

[Meister Jag]

pot and kettle you voted for labour who in thirteen years (again voted for by you) ran uk into the ground even though you claimed to hate blair and brown

 

 

no that was all done by labour we are just trying to fix it...notice old edd has changed his mind over uni funding and the cuts.

 

always keep in the back of your mind that socialism has never and will never work

 

 

the ultimate champagne socialist, waster

 

Jaggy

 

Okay I probably asked for that tirade of right-wing bile. A few facts to set the record straight - most of this you should already know but I guess your brain isn't what it once was: too much port and fine dining (I blame your long-suffering better half; but keep up the good work Mrs J !

 

Once upon a time I did vote for Labour, but then the modernisers appeared and I was asked to leave; well I was kicked out with a few others. What the country then got was failure in the shape of Neil Kinnoch followed by the greasy crew known as New Labour. By then, I'd joined wee Tommy and others in a new party and 6 MSPs had been returned to Holyrood. Happier days indeed. Then wee T got into a spot of bother and the crucifixion followed. Making no excuses for his behaviour; just stating fact. What an adult gets up to is their business. I mean, for all I know you could dress up as Hitler and do a bit of Max Mosley with your well-worn lederhosen and jack boots on. Your business and if it makes you happy then you go Adolf

 

In terms of the current labour circus, I doubt if I'd vote for them. No point, they offer nothing and would change very little; this is also my general cynical view of independence as I'm still waiting to understand what will be better and how poverty, unemployement etc will be eradicated. Fact is, it won't; although the SNP have made a reasonable effort at government and history will probably record their success. They have no friends at Westminster and probably have to fight for every pound for the Scottish economy. It probably gives me no pleasure saying that, but fairs fair. Salmond is many things and has an ego to match even yours, but like your good self, he is capable.

 

I actually cringe when I hear a labour leader clutching at straws and trying to find a foothold in the current political debate. In truth, I probably have more time for the slime-balls like Ed Balls who tell us that he'd reverse very few cuts. At least that lets you know where you stand and what you need to fight. And yes, the last lot and their friends in big business and the banking sector got us into this mess. At the heart of it all lay greed and this is what I'm dead against. We are still a rich nation and the lives of our citizens' could, IMHO, be so much better; but another debate for another day. But we are not as skint as you make out; or have been conned into believing.

 

As for being a champagne socialist, you're having a laugh. You'll find me in the S&G drinking our other national drink before games. Haven't touched a drop in years mate - keeping my body in tip top condition for the big day. Someone has to run with that red flag and I want to look good on the telly!

 

Not too political from me; there's a first!

[Guy Incognito]

We are not going to agree on this but I welcome the debate. I just can't get Alex Salmonds over support for joining the Euro and his "Arc of Prosperity" including Ireland and Iceland which he now pretends never happened.

The currency question is a good one. However, I don't believe it is an insurmountable obstacle and that alone should not be a reason against independence. It does need to be addressed though, which is why there needs to be a sensible, rational debate prior to the referendum taking place (or as rational and sensible as politicians are capable of anyway).

 

You may be surprised to hear that I thought Annabel Goldie was an excellent politician and party leader (while I don't share her views) Some of the clowns who are trying to replace her are truly laughable individuals. The bull dyke who thinks forcing everyone to go to religious schools is a classic example.

 

As for Labour, I thought they couldn't go any lower than Gray. Looks like they are trying hard.

Apparently Ruth Davidson's grandfather (I assume she is the "bull dyke" you are referring to) played for the Jags.

 

Or so she claimed in her election bumpf. Still not a good enough reason to vote for her, IMHO; but maybe we could add her name to the 'Celebrity Fans' thread.

 

So who did you favour? Let's guess, four letters, starts with a T and ends with a Y. Will the sun ever set on your little bit of Empire?

Aye, and as long as we remain in a political union with England then we are going to be governed by that party, if that is who the good people of England vote for! This is why I cannot understand why you are so seemingly apathetic towards the idea of independence, Meister Jag.

[Meister Jag]

Aye, and as long as we remain in a political union with England then we are going to be governed by that party, if that is who the good people of England vote for! This is why I cannot understand why you are so seemingly apathetic towards the idea of independence, Meister Jag.

 

 

Hmm, would I vote for independence? Possibly and solely because I believe that the SNP have bit more soul and social conscience about them than the other parties of the Union. For all I bang on about socialism and far-left issues, most of that is just to take issues with the empire loyalist attack dogs on this forum (we all know who they are and probably pity them!). However, I do believe that the SNP is the pick of a bad bunch.

 

But can the SNP deliver long lasting social change, no, I don't think it can. For socialists, internationalism is a sacred principle. "The working man has no country" and all that... and to quote the founder of scientific socialism. This has been a good debate and I promise I won't go off on one! But I tend to agree with the internationalist perspective and view all forms of nationalist politics with a degree of caution. Not that I think that the SNP are in any way an extremest party; although they did have such elements in their ranks at one stage. My cousin for one and he's a Jags fan; so I'd better watch what I'm saying. But some of the anti-English stuff I heard about wealth control and land ownership was beyond belief. Never the fact that he was a classic case of class exploitation that needed to be reversed; just blame the English - even waiters in Highland hotels who've pinched our jobs. (He strangely never claims that of Eastern European migrant workers; which I guess proves my point.)

 

But yes, very apathetic and not convinced that independence would deliver any real change and there would certainly be no marked differences to the lives of most ordinary people. However, if the SNP wants to start talking about taking key industries back into public ownership e.g. power companies and public transport, and start making decisions that would be for the common good, then I might start showing a real interest in what might be possible for our small country. But just now, they seem content to play within the global economic system; and isn't that system a success!!

 

Sorry to come across all doom and gloom and I hope your dream becomes a reality.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Meister Jag

[GrantB]

Hmm, would I vote for independence? Possibly and solely because I believe that the SNP have bit more soul and social conscience about them than the other parties of the Union. For all I bang on about socialism and far-left issues, most of that is just to take issues with the empire loyalist attack dogs on this forum (we all know who they are and probably pity them!). However, I do believe that the SNP is the pick of a bad bunch.

 

But can the SNP deliver long lasting social change, no, I don't think it can. For socialists, internationalism is a sacred principle. "The working man has no country" and all that... and to quote the founder of scientific socialism. This has been a good debate and I promise I won't go off on one! But I tend to agree with the internationalist perspective and view all forms of nationalist politics with a degree of caution. Not that I think that the SNP are in any way an extremest party; although they did have such elements in their ranks at one stage. My cousin for one and he's a Jags fan; so I'd better watch what I'm saying. But some of the anti-English stuff I heard about wealth control and land ownership was beyond belief. Never the fact that he was a classic case of class exploitation that needed to be reversed; just blame the English - even waiters in Highland hotels who've pinched our jobs. (He strangely never claims that of Eastern European migrant workers; which I guess proves my point.)

 

But yes, very apathetic and not convinced that independence would deliver any real change and there would certainly be no marked differences to the lives of most ordinary people. However, if the SNP wants to start talking about taking key industries back into public ownership e.g. power companies and public transport, and start making decisions that would be for the common good, then I might start showing a real interest in what might be possible for our small country. But just now, they seem content to play within the global economic system; and isn't that system a success!!

 

Sorry to come across all doom and gloom and I hope your dream becomes a reality.

 

MJ, given that independence offers by far the best opportunity for a Socialist platform to gain representation in parliament (see the 6 MSP's that the SSP returned at Holyrood as an example), I'm kind of baffled that you aren't as supportive.

 

I think there is a place for a properly left wing party in Scotland, after all we are a naturally left leaning country. If only the various socialist factions could come under the one banner instead of behaving like the Jags trust.

[honved]

Here's something that will appeal to all. The Red Flag for GrantB and Meister Jag followed by Jerusalem for jaggybunnet. You have to admire the production

 

And here's one for me and all the crazy nationalists.

[GrantB]

I see the Scottish Labour candidates are so dull, Ed Miliband can't even remember their names...

 

BBC report

[jaggybunnet]

Here's something that will appeal to all. The Red Flag for GrantB and Meister Jag followed by Jerusalem for jaggybunnet. You have to admire the production

 

And here's one for me and all the crazy nationalists.

 

why would i like/want Jerusalem, its a English song??

 

the corries did it far better.

 

Edited September 29, 2011 by jaggybunnet

[Mr Scruff]

Just out of curiosity (and because I've not seen much response on it) do the people on here supporting independence support Scotland as part of the Euro, or with it's own separate currency/ exchequer? History, both recent and older, illustrates all too clearly that fiscal union without political union is 'difficult'.

[Jaggernaut]

A return to groats and merks is the way forward.

[Vladimir Putin]

Just out of curiosity (and because I've not seen much response on it) do the people on here supporting independence support Scotland as part of the Euro, or with it's own separate currency/ exchequer? History, both recent and older, illustrates all too clearly that fiscal union without political union is 'difficult'.

 

I don't see any reason why we couldn't have our own currency (I don't consider Jaggybunnet's argument that Scotland is too wee and too stupid to be able to do these things as valid). For example, the Baltic states were able to mint their own currencies after leaving the rouble/Soviet Union and they are relatively stable, we could do the same. Keeping the pound is not an option except in the very short term, we couldn't have genuine independence without having control over monetary policy. As others have mentioned, I would like SNP clarification on this, they traditionally supported joining the Euro but I would assume that recent events have caused them to reconsider.

[jaggybunnet]

I don't see any reason why we couldn't have our own currency (I don't consider Jaggybunnet's argument that Scotland is too wee and too stupid to be able to do these things as valid). For example, the Baltic states were able to mint their own currencies after leaving the rouble/Soviet Union and they are relatively stable, we could do the same. Keeping the pound is not an option except in the very short term, we couldn't have genuine independence without having control over monetary policy. As others have mentioned, I would like SNP clarification on this, they traditionally supported joining the Euro but I would assume that recent events have caused them to reconsider.

 

 

especially as i never said it honved you have a lot to answer for

[Vladimir Putin]

especially as i never said it honved you have a lot to answer for

 

Well, you did refer to Scottish independence as 'patients running the asylum'. Who are the 'patients' and where is the 'asylum' in this analogy?

[jaggybunnet]

Well, you did refer to Scottish independence as 'patients running the asylum'. Who are the 'patients' and where is the 'asylum' in this analogy?

 

 

snp and Scotland, should be obvious

[Vladimir Putin]

snp and Scotland, should be obvious

 

You may not agree with their overall goal of independence, but to suggest that the SNP are incompetent is just nonsense, frankly. The very reason they won by such a margain in May was that even voters who don't support independence recognised that the SNP were by far the most qualified to be in charge at Holyrood.

[jaggybunnet]

You may not agree with their overall goal of independence, but to suggest that the SNP are incompetent is just nonsense, frankly. The very reason they won by such a margain in May was that even voters who don't support independence recognised that the SNP were by far the most qualified to be in charge at Holyrood.

 

 

no they won because there was no one else to vote for, there alcohol policy is a joke and will see people driving across the boarder to get there drink and then in cases selling it on.

 

forth bridge, stop a perfectly good income to help out with countries finances, no let use it to get more votes sod the hospitals and schools that need it.

 

sturgens, we wont touch the nurses and doctors, yeah right my sister works in dunfermlin has been told there will be job losses due to snp cuts

[Jaggernaut]

no they won because there was no one else to vote for, there alcohol policy is a joke and will see people driving across the boarder to get there drink and then in cases selling it on.

 

forth bridge, stop a perfectly good income to help out with countries finances, no let use it to get more votes sod the hospitals and schools that need it.

 

sturgens, we wont touch the nurses and doctors, yeah right my sister works in dunfermlin has been told there will be job losses due to snp cuts

Has your favoured party (whatever it is) never put forward policies that you think are awful, or instigated cuts that have led to job losses? Think about it: your opener, that the SNP won "because there was no one else to vote for" says it all.

[Meister Jag]

MJ, given that independence offers by far the best opportunity for a Socialist platform to gain representation in parliament (see the 6 MSP's that the SSP returned at Holyrood as an example), I'm kind of baffled that you aren't as supportive.

 

I think there is a place for a properly left wing party in Scotland, after all we are a naturally left leaning country. If only the various socialist factions could come under the one banner instead of behaving like the Jags trust.

 

For the record and I think I've already made this point in this thread, I think independence would probably be a first step in the direction of moving Scotland towards being a fully independent socialist state. But that obviously wouldn't happen overnight.

 

The SNP are admittedly left-leaning but for them I believe any model whereby the state controls the economy would be a step too far and they are in essence an establishment party who are happy to work with business. In so doing and as other small countries have done, they would be happy to cut deals to gain inward investment and many decisions would be based on short-term gain.

 

I don't blame the nationalists for any of this, they are just playing within the rules of the system. But what I advocate is breaking the mould and, at risk of sounding all revolutionary, smashing the system for the good of the Scottish people. Without bold steps then I remain unconvinced by the independence arguments - and I accept that my views are out of kilter with some comrades in the left. My problem is that I don't believe that independence offers anything that improves the lot of the average punter in the street. For example, job opportunities would still be scarce and many of the problems being faced by our communities would still exist. Why, because independence doesn't deliver a free pot of gold.

 

As an internationalist and as someone who considers himself to be part of the World Socialist Movement, I would argue that every nation state is by its very nature anti-working class. In reality the "nation" is a myth as there can be no community of interests between two classes in antagonism with one another i.e. the non-owners in society and the owners of the means of wealth creation. Put very simply, the workers and the capitalists. The state as it stands, and as it would do so under independence, ultimately exists only to defend the property interests of the owning class. So it could be argued - and history confirms this assertion - that any move towards wrestling control away from the owning class tends to be met by the police and army being used to restore order so as to protect the interests of the capitalists and their business interests.

 

Apologies if it appears that I'm trying to ruin your party, I'm not and all I'm doing is to agree with you in part whilst suggesting that we need a radical transformation of society to make any difference. Some more quick thoughts on this...

 

The ultimate goal of the socialist movement is not to assist in the creation of even more states but to establish a real world community without frontiers where all states as they currently exist would be destroyed. In a true socialist society communities, towns and cities would be allowed to have the opportunity to thrive; but free from the tags of nationhood. This all about people being allowed to live and thrive, not about tribalism and what are really invisible boundaries between countries would be lost. Former nation states would be consigned to the history books where they belong.

 

At risk of winding many on this DG up, I believe that constitutional reform such as Scottish independence is of no real benefit or relevance to many socialists. It leaves our lives and the problems the profit system causes completely unchanged. This has been my stance throughout this debate; even if I probably would vote in favour of independence. All of the previously highlighted exploitation through the wages system would continue. Unemployment would continues and a crumbling health service, a chaotic transport system, a polluted environment, failing schools, rising crime and drug addiction and the general breakdown of society would all continue. Where would the money be to cure any of the aforementioned? In my opinion - and I'm typing this knowing that there will be a backlash (sorry guys!) - as far as solving any these problems is concerned, constitutional reform and independence in name only is just a useless irrelevancy!

 

From what I've read here - and it has been one of the better discussions on the forum (IMO), I've been constantly told by SNP supporters that independence would be an extension of democracy, bringing power nearer to the people etc. So logically, how can socialists not be in favour of this? Well yes, any right minded socialists should be in favour of democracy, and the socialist model would see the creation of a fully democratic society; but full democracy is not possible under capitalism. Therein lies my problem with all of this... Put bluntly, the people’s will to have their needs met properly is always going to be f***** by the operation of the economic laws of the capitalist system which no political structure, however democratic, can control. Take a look at the economic mess we're in just now and take a look at some of the small countries that the SNP once said we should admire and model ourselves on!

 

Hope this makes some sense and is received in the spirit intended.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Meister Jag

[jaggybunnet]

Has your favoured party (whatever it is) never put forward policies that you think are awful, or instigated cuts that have led to job losses? Think about it: your opener, that the SNP won "because there was no one else to vote for" says it all.

 

yes it says that some people are so closed minded they would rather vote for the snp than any other and we will regret it for years to come

[GrantB]

no they won because there was no one else to vote for, there alcohol policy is a joke and will see people driving across the boarder to get there drink and then in cases selling it on.

 

forth bridge, stop a perfectly good income to help out with countries finances, no let use it to get more votes sod the hospitals and schools that need it.

 

sturgens, we wont touch the nurses and doctors, yeah right my sister works in dunfermlin has been told there will be job losses due to snp cuts

 

 

Sometimes I just despair.

 

You support the party of death by a thousand cuts yet criticise the SNP for making cuts. Or are cuts only acceptable when the Tory party are making them?

 

As for your other points, don't you think it's refreshing to have a party that actually wants to have a go at bettering the health of the nation and doing something about the chronic alcohohol problems that Scotland has?

 

And the bridge tolls were only ever in place to recoup the outlay of building them in the first place. It was a total disgrace that they were still charging motorists to go over the bridge years after the building had been paid off. If it were up to Labour and the Tories, they would probably have increased them!

[Jaggernaut]

yes it says that some people are so closed minded they would rather vote for the snp than any other and we will regret it for years to come

That's either closed-minded dogma, or Westminster propoganda-induced irrational fear.

 

Millions of people have been regretting the union and British nationalism for many years. What do you have to say about that?

[jaggybunnet]

[/b]

That's either closed-minded dogma, or Westminster propoganda-induced irrational fear.

 

Millions of people have been regretting the union and British nationalism for many years. What do you have to say about that?

 

 

how about they are daft

[Jaggernaut]

how about they are daft

I rest my case.

[JAGZ1876]

I rest my case.

The only daft thing about them was putting up with this lopsided union for so long.