Scottish Independence

[GrantB]

trams in Edinburgh, losing the income from the forth road bridge the parliament buildings the the alcohol policy but to name a few

 

As has been pointed out to you many times, the Trams and the parliament were Labour and nothing to do with the SNP.

 

The Forth Bridge toll is a laughable comment. I wonder if your view is shared by Fife Chamber of Commerce.

 

The alcohol policy is an attempt to tackle our chronic drinking problem. The SNP are the only party that have had the guts to tackle it unlike the spineless Westminster based parties.

[Jaggernaut]

Jaggernuat. If there is independence I doubt there will be a High Speed Train link to Scotland. Who would pay from Manchester up north especially before the border? The English Parliament would not want to pay for it or have much demand for it. Scotland would need it more so we would have more and more stand off's of that nature as we fight between who should pay and indeed who would pay. Scotland would need it built more to get to London and Europe.

 

With all due respect, you are missing the point. The other "big" nations in Europe that the UK likes to compare itself to would have had fast rail links between the equivalent of Scotland and the capital many years ago. Both Germany (ICE) and France (TGV) have rail links that make Britain's railway system look like a 3rd World set-up, which actually isn't all that far from the truth (having travelled by train in a wide range of countries throughout the world). Why has the UK government refused to invest in modern railways for their people? And this situation is the fault of the unionist administrations, remember.

 

No Royal Navy means less ships to build on the Clyde and more closures and pain for the shipyard industry and the workers it supports. Close Faslane and the thousands of jobs it supports?

 

Other independent nations have viable ship-building industries. For God's sake, some of the Cal-Mac ferries were built in Poland, which has no coastline!! The reason that our ship-building industry is on its knees is due to the British government's failure to adequately support it.

 

 

 

You also say

"continue to be misgoverned and kept at a lower standard of living than we deserve by an English-interests dominated London government?"

Scotland's standard of living is very good especially when you take into account education, house prices and urban sprawl which a lot of south east England suffers from. Your tone makes me think you simply do not like the English. "English-interests dominated London government". Nationalists of any ilk like to group people together. Them and us. What is English interests? Is it South East England? Proud Yorkshire? Rural Cornwall? Industrial Midlands? Is it working class, middle class, landed gentry? London. Is it some kind of foriegn city? It could be argued as it more international than English. Multi-cultural, high immmigration, liberal with up to 100 000 Scots living in and around it.

 

I have nothing against "The English" (Jaggernautess is another story.....!!). I don't care whether there are other pockets of population in England which don't get their fair share of the cake compared to the south-east of England. They are not nations whose sovereignty was sold undemocratically, with no popular vote. Scotland is.

 

An unfounded accusation of "sense of helplessness that Westminster likes to see in Scots, to make us feel dependent and incapable of changing their cosy position." is paranoid, unsubstantative and to me wrong.

 

It's not paranoid, and it's you who's wrong. For years we were told that Scotland just could not go it alone. I don't have details, but papers released in recent times have shown it to be a lie that the Westminster government used to subdue the Scottish people's growing realisation that they were getting a raw deal. That no longer will wash, so Westminster's strategy has clearly shifted, from claiming that Scots are incapable and cannot afford to become an independent nation, to relying on vague and emotional arguments like "we don't want divorce", or "we are stronger together than apart"."

 

As I said previously, fortunately (in my view), more and more Scots (and people who have chosen to live here from elsewhere) are wakening up to the situation, and have decided that enough is enough.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Jaggernaut

[Norgethistle]

Ok lets say scotland gets independance, what happens to our armed forces, the bases and the ships tanks and planes they use, who owns them.

The railways who owns the rolling stock, the tracks etc. Our gas its piped ashore in england will we have to pay more for it. Our food how much is "imported" from england will we pay import duty. And if Scotland decided it was just going to tax the oil companys more to make the shortfall, they will do what they threatened last year with the proposed "oil-tax" move all the on shore jobs abroad, lower production from the scottish sector and up it on the norwegian and danish sector, till they break it, statoil (norways biggest oil company has already publicaly stated it would do this if the oil tax came in)

There is way too many unknowns for Scotlands future to just vote yes for indepenance on the fact that we are proud to be Scottish, how proud would we all be if we bacame the new Romania or Albania of Europe, with mass migration due to poverty and lack of jobs

[jaggybunnet]

As has been pointed out to you many times, the Trams and the parliament were Labour and nothing to do with the SNP.

 

The Forth Bridge toll is a laughable comment. I wonder if your view is shared by Fife Chamber of Commerce.

 

The alcohol policy is an attempt to tackle our chronic drinking problem. The SNP are the only party that have had the guts to tackle it unlike the spineless Westminster based parties.

 

it was about decision making by scottish politicians not just snp

 

why its a income that could be used for good causes whats the problem

 

that's the problem, its not tackling it, those that this is supposed to stop will get there drink else where, probably illegal and probably dangerous or they will get from england.

[Jaggernaut]

Ok lets say scotland gets independance, what happens to our armed forces, the bases and the ships tanks and planes they use, who owns them.

The railways who owns the rolling stock, the tracks etc. Our gas its piped ashore in england will we have to pay more for it. Our food how much is "imported" from england will we pay import duty. And if Scotland decided it was just going to tax the oil companys more to make the shortfall, they will do what they threatened last year with the proposed "oil-tax" move all the on shore jobs abroad, lower production from the scottish sector and up it on the norwegian and danish sector, till they break it, statoil (norways biggest oil company has already publicaly stated it would do this if the oil tax came in)

There is way too many unknowns for Scotlands future to just vote yes for indepenance on the fact that we are proud to be Scottish, how proud would we all be if we bacame the new Romania or Albania of Europe, with mass migration due to poverty and lack of jobs

And you accused me of being paranoid!

 

Edited: Apologies, it wisnae you who accused me. But now I'm the accuser!

Edited October 5, 2011 by Jaggernaut

[Jaggernaut]

i

that's the problem, its not tackling it, those that this is supposed to stop will get there drink else where, probably illegal and probably dangerous or they will get from england.

So, how would you tackle it? The British nationalist parties tried to block everything the SNP proposed to tackle the problem.

 

And please don't give us something wishy washy like "education" (which is exactly what is needed, but then why didn't the unionist parties do anything?!)

[Norgethistle]

And you accused me of being paranoid!

 

Edited: Apologies, it wisnae you who accused me. But now I'm the accuser!

 

Its a serious question, if Scotland were to go on its own, what would happen to all this and the jobs that rely on it, the SNP offer the scottish people one thing that the rest of the parties dont a scottish party not a branch of a british party, i'd love salmond to come out and say exactly how scotland could stand on its own and not just use the oil card to pay for it, what would be the benefits (self government, keep what money scotland earns, job creations???)and what could be the possible knock on effects (job losses, no armed forces, bankrupt country, no infrastructure), then and only then could people really make their minds up. The we can make it on our own cause we can from the nationalists, or the Scotland can't stand on its own to feet cause it can't form the unionists never has enough substance to make for a real debate on the matter, both sides only pull on the heart strings of scotland and the UK to make their case with no real data behind it

[jaggybunnet]

So, how would you tackle it? The British nationalist parties tried to block everything the SNP proposed to tackle the problem.

 

And please don't give us something wishy washy like "education" (which is exactly what is needed, but then why didn't the unionist parties do anything?!)

 

 

if i knew that i would be a rich man.

 

hows about being tougher (fines) on those that sell it to people who obviously are too drunk, we have all seen the guy/woman who is pissed out there head but still gets served.

 

how about making those that drink too much take responsibility for there actions with fines and if the are on benefits take them off them.

 

the snp are doing this because they want to be seen to do something not IMHO because they think it will work.

 

its a bit like getting rid of the forth road bridge toll, looks good until you look into it.

[Blackpool Jags]

As a highly respected professional working in the NHS (and a former poster on here) has just pointed out to me, the current shambles that is the ConDem coalition in proposing to rape the pensions of public service workers across the UK are likely to contribute to yet further calls for independence from the people they are hitting hard in Scotland.

 

What the ConDems are proposing to do with public service workers' pensions is nothing short of theft and the backlash will be significant. For affected workers outside Scotland, the only realistic course of action is to take industrial action on 30th November following a ballot of all those whose pensions will be smashed by this unscrupulous shower. The effect on Scottish workers will be the same, but is likely to increase the existing head of steam for independence as a way of breaking with the diabolical type of Government that they are presently confronted by.

 

Hopefully, there will be a UK-wide backlash which will be the catalyst towards getting rid of this lot. We shall see.

[Jaggernaut]

Its a serious question, if Scotland were to go on its own, what would happen to all this and the jobs that rely on it, the SNP offer the scottish people one thing that the rest of the parties dont a scottish party not a branch of a british party, i'd love salmond to come out and say exactly how scotland could stand on its own and not just use the oil card to pay for it, what would be the benefits (self government, keep what money scotland earns, job creations???)and what could be the possible knock on effects (job losses, no armed forces, bankrupt country, no infrastructure), then and only then could people really make their minds up. The we can make it on our own cause we can from the nationalists, or the Scotland can't stand on its own to feet cause it can't form the unionists never has enough substance to make for a real debate on the matter, both sides only pull on the heart strings of scotland and the UK to make their case with no real data behind it

Has it escaped your notice that job losses are increasing by the thousands every week under our unionist leaders, including in the armed forces? And the UK is in fact a bankrupt country, with debts that will never be paid off in any of our lifetimes? What is this "no infrastructure" idea? Are roads and railways and airports somehow going to disappear with independence? Same with schools and hospitals?

 

A question that unionists don't like, but here we go again: Why is it that no country that has ever gained independence from "union" with a more powerful (and often colonizing) country has ever voted to return to dependence? Surely if the awful financial and social scenarios that some unionists like to dream up would come to pass (and have they in other developed countries?), then people would vote with their vote, and go back to being dependent? It doesn't happen, because people are happier. Why is that?

Edited October 5, 2011 by Jaggernaut

[jaggybunnet]

As a highly respected professional working in the NHS (and a former poster on here) has just pointed out to me, the current shambles that is the ConDem coalition in proposing to rape the pensions of public service workers across the UK are likely to contribute to yet further calls for independence from the people they are hitting hard in Scotland.

 

What the ConDems are proposing to do with public service workers' pensions is nothing short of theft and the backlash will be significant. For affected workers outside Scotland, the only realistic course of action is to take industrial action on 30th November following a ballot of all those whose pensions will be smashed by this unscrupulous shower. The effect on Scottish workers will be the same, but is likely to increase the existing head of steam for independence as a way of breaking with the diabolical type of Government that they are presently confronted by.

 

Hopefully, there will be a UK-wide backlash which will be the catalyst towards getting rid of this lot. We shall see.

 

sorry BJ but this deluded paranoia is difficult to watch, you need to go into a darkened room and have a rest.

[jaggybunnet]

Has it escaped your notice that job losses are increasing by the thousands every week under our unionist leaders, including in the armed forces? And the UK is in fact a bankrupt country, with debts that will never be paid off in any of our lifetimes? What is this "no infrastructure" idea? Are roads and railways and airports somehow going to disappear with independence? Same with schools and hospitals?

 

A question that unionists don't like, but here we go again: Why is it that no country that has ever gained independence from "union" with a more powerful (and often colonizing) country has ever voted to return to dependence? Surely if the awful financial and social scenarios that some unionists like to dream up would come to pass (and have they in other developed countries?), then people would vote with their vote, and go back to being dependent? It doesn't happen, because people are happier. Why is that?

 

 

and you think that Scotland as well as coping with it own debts ( it would need to borrow massively till it sorted out the detail of the split)would be able to pay off its share of the UK debt

[Jaggernaut]

and you think that Scotland as well as coping with it own debts ( it would need to borrow massively till it sorted out the detail of the split)would be able to pay off its share of the UK debt

Talk about head and brick wall.......!

 

Again, What is the UK doing (other than driving 99% of its population into a poorer standard of living)?

[Norgethistle]

Has it escaped your notice that job losses are increasing by the thousands every week under our unionist leaders, including in the armed forces?

 

Most definetly not, why do you think i and thousands of scots every year leave the country, but lose our military bases and see the knock on effect for the wider community, not to mention the like of rolls-royce who's scottish legs wouldnt be able to work on parts or engines that go into engkish airforce planes, thats more jobs that would move down south

 

And the UK is in fact a bankrupt country, with debts that will never be paid off in any of our lifetimes?

 

Your correct, but scotland would be starting of in a horrendous position, who would give them decent credit? it would be like leaving school and going for your 1st car loan with a million quid debt already against you,

 

What is this "no infrastructure" idea? Are roads and railways and airports somehow going to disappear with independence? Same with schools and hospitals?

 

Alot of schools and hospitals have been partly funded by westminster, would we pay it back? The train tracks are owned by network rail (british company), the airports are run by BAA (british company) and governed by the CAA (british company), how do we split this up would we have to pay for some ar all of it?

 

A question that unionists don't like, but here we go again: Why is it that no country that has ever gained independence from "union" with a more powerful (and often colonizing) country has ever voted to return to dependence? Surely if the awful financial and social scenarios that some unionists like to dream up would come to pass (and have they in other developed countries?), then people would vote with their vote, and go back to being dependent? It doesn't happen, because people are happier. Why is that?

[jaggybunnet]

Talk about head and brick wall.......!

 

Again, What is the UK doing (other than driving 99% of its population into a poorer standard of living)?

 

 

i know the feeling, what difference apart from pushing us farther into debt is independence going to do....you don't know but seem happy to take the chance of bankrupting us just to make you feel a bit more Scottish.

 

that is your whole argument, to make you feel more Scottish, because you can show nothing to prove it can work and that is my point, why take the chance.

Edited October 5, 2011 by jaggybunnet

[GrantB]

In reply to norgethistle, network rail and BAA are private companies (sold off by the Tories), they will function exactly the same in an independent Scotland.

 

In fact, if memory serves me right, BAA are a Spanish owned firm.

[Norgethistle]

So what does scotland have that it can sell itself to the world with that will turn a profit after we service our debt and pay the money to all the people on benefit.

 

Oil

 

Whiskey

 

Hydro-electric

 

Call centers

 

 

we have next to no industry left in scotland to pay its own way, we go independant and the remenats of the ship building industry will go too, and of the 4 industries above the call centers probably employ more than any one else bar the oil

[Norgethistle]

In reply to norgethistle, network rail and BAA are private companies (sold off by the Tories), they will function exactly the same in an independent Scotland.

 

In fact, if memory serves me right, BAA are a Spanish owned firm.

 

They are not fully privately owned if memory serves me right, government still has a large share in them

[GrantB]

So what does scotland have that it can sell itself to the world with that will turn a profit after we service our debt and pay the money to all the people on benefit.

 

Oil

 

Whiskey

 

Hydro-electric

 

Call centers

 

 

we have next to no industry left in scotland to pay its own way, we go independant and the remenats of the ship building industry will go too, and of the 4 industries above the call centers probably employ more than any one else bar the oil

 

Certainly not whiskey as that is produced in countries outside Scotland.

 

I really despair of Scots who constantly deride their own country. We have more going for us than most countries our size. No one questions Denmark's place in Europe with a similar population to Scotland.

[GrantB]

They are not fully privately owned if memory serves me right, government still has a large share in them

 

Who owns BAA

 

Network Rail is still government owned but since the Scottish Government financed the Bathgate to Airdrie link and the upcoming Borders railway, it's something that Scotland could easily take over fully.

[Norgethistle]

Certainly not whiskey as that is produced in countries outside Scotland.

 

I really despair of Scots who constantly deride their own country. We have more going for us than most countries our size. No one questions Denmark's place in Europe with a similar population to Scotland.

 

I don't deride my own country, i only want scotland to do what is the right long term decision for the country, for all our grandkids and their grankids, Denmark is doing ok cause it hasn't been lumbered with the debt from a union (as in uk not T&GWU!!!) same as norway, both these country's had a reletavly clean slate and have built on it, but if the oil hadnt hit norway when it did it would have been right up a creek. I would love scotland to be able to stand on its own, but at the moment i really don't think it can, we have too much debt too high unemployment and too little real industry and a lack of skills now. Yes this is due to various governments of the past, but to an extent we havent helped ourselves

[GrantB]

I don't deride my own country, i only want scotland to do what is the right long term decision for the country, for all our grandkids and their grankids, Denmark is doing ok cause it hasn't been lumbered with the debt from a union (as in uk not T&GWU!!!) same as norway, both these country's had a reletavly clean slate and have built on it, but if the oil hadnt hit norway when it did it would have been right up a creek. I would love scotland to be able to stand on its own, but at the moment i really don't think it can, we have too much debt too high unemployment and too little real industry and a lack of skills now. Yes this is due to various governments of the past, but to an extent we havent helped ourselves

 

The choice facing Scotland is either go it alone or be dragged down by the ConDem's That is the reality.

[Meister Jag]

As a highly respected professional working in the NHS (and a former poster on here) has just pointed out to me, the current shambles that is the ConDem coalition in proposing to rape the pensions of public service workers across the UK are likely to contribute to yet further calls for independence from the people they are hitting hard in Scotland.

 

What the ConDems are proposing to do with public service workers' pensions is nothing short of theft and the backlash will be significant. For affected workers outside Scotland, the only realistic course of action is to take industrial action on 30th November following a ballot of all those whose pensions will be smashed by this unscrupulous shower. The effect on Scottish workers will be the same, but is likely to increase the existing head of steam for independence as a way of breaking with the diabolical type of Government that they are presently confronted by.

 

Hopefully, there will be a UK-wide backlash which will be the catalyst towards getting rid of this lot. We shall see.

 

At risk of going off-topic, couldn't agree more BJ, the last strike was a huge success and I understand that the unions are still awaiting the meaningful discussions with the government that were promised. Funny how ministers were happy to join in media discussions in the morning of the last strike and berate strikers as enemies of the state etc, but as word got back to them about the scale and public support for the action they very quickly disappeared from all interviews in the afternoon and evening news programmes. They knew that they'd been given a bloody nose so decided to sulk back into their caves. But the the fact is more and more public sector unions have had enough and the gloves are now off.

 

However, it has to be said that any proposed action - and let's be clear, there will be a national day of action - is avoidable and all this government (Tories and their power hungry lapdogs) have to do is to enter into meaningful discussions with the unions. All public sector unions have, to the best of my knowledge, intimated that there must be changes to public sector pension schemes and have intimated that they wish to negotiate a way out of this mess. So why the reluctance on the part of government to seek to avoid confrontation? There is an easy answer and that could be that the public sector is the last stronghold of mass trade unionism in this country, break the unions then the public sector can be opened up for yet more modernisation, privatisation etc.

 

Public sector workers who provide valuable services have been turned into pariahs and more-or-less blamed for the recession. Somehow all of this is there fault. In the absence of progress by means of entering into the discussions mentioned above, what else can the unions do? They stand to represent their members' interests so must act or stand accused by the rank and file of colluding with government. Oh, and let's not forget that the average pension that the government wants already low-paid workers to wait longer and pay more for is actually less than £4k p.a. Very few civil servants, NHS and local government workers are the "fat cats" who are vilified in the Daily Mail and other tabloids.

 

Funny thing is that the so-called "fat cats" have been responsible for running down public services and introducing private sector working practices for a number of years. There's a strange irony in that! I for one will be supporting public sector workers when they take action.

 

Believe it or not, I've actually tried not to be political in this contribution...

Edited October 6, 2011 by Meister Jag

[Vladimir Putin]

 

that is your whole argument, to make you feel more Scottish, because you can show nothing to prove it can work and that is my point, why take the chance.

 

Why do you keep asking for proof of what will happen in the future? That's simply impossible in this case! Did the Tories prove categorically that their economic plan would be a success before you voted for them? If you're going to set the bar so high that it's impossible to clear then there is no point in debating with you.

 

All anyone can do is look at the arguments for and against and make a judgement. For what it's worth, I consider myself pro-independence but accept that there are some questions that remain unanswered about our currency, place in the EU, division of UK infrastructure, armed forces, etc. But I don't expect anyone to prove to me that we would be better in the UK, because they can't.

 

I'm too young to remember Thatcher and Major properly, but it's not inconceivable that the next Westminster government could have a Tory majority without a single Scottish Tory MP, and that itself is enough for me. There's a massive democratic disenfranchisement in the UK, Scottish people have the right to choose their own government (one that has real powers to make decisions for Scottish people, not just what Westminster decides to hand down).

Edited October 6, 2011 by Vladimir Putin

[jaggybunnet]

Why do you keep asking for proof of what will happen in the future? That's simply impossible in this case! Did the Tories prove categorically that their economic plan would be a success before you voted for them? If you're going to set the bar so high that it's impossible to clear then there is no point in debating with you.

 

All anyone can do is look at the arguments for and against and make a judgement. For what it's worth, I consider myself pro-independence but accept that there are some questions that remain unanswered about our currency, place in the EU, division of UK infrastructure, armed forces, etc. But I don't expect anyone to prove to me that we would be better in the UK, because they can't.

 

I'm too young to remember Thatcher and Major properly, but it's not inconceivable that the next Westminster government could have a Tory majority without a single Scottish Tory MP, and that itself is enough for me. There's a massive democratic disenfranchisement in the UK, Scottish people have the right to choose their own government (one that has real powers to make decisions for Scottish people, not just what Westminster decides to hand down).

 

ok proof might be the wrong word how about giving us a clue what they would do then, the tories had to do that, they had to show what there plan was for us if they were voted in.