Scottish Independence

[Lambies Lost Doo]

With respect, LLD, it could be argued very strongly that the only reason we still have an NHS is because of Scotland's role in traditionally returning Labour Governments to Westminster. The Tories were vehemently opposed to the formation of the NHS and are presently doing their damnedest to dismantle it. I believe that a Scottish NHS would be the envy of the UK and, if anything, would force a reversal of the Tories' current proposals to chop up the NHS and feed it off to private fat cats.

 

Politically, the Scottish psyche is quite a bit to the left of little England and that's why Scottish citizens enjoy a raft of social benefits not available to their English counterparts. In other words, Scotland puts its responsibilities for caring for the old, the young and the vulnerable before grubby profit; certainly more so, it seems, than right of centre pro-monarchy, empire-friendly England.

 

Blackpool Jag. Your posts can be quite politically biased due to your union work so if you are talking about vhemently opposed to the formatioin of the NHS you need to add the British Medical Association was one of the most opposed. That's right. Those hero doctors. But that was 60 years ago so no point bringing it up. I don't believe the Conservatives want to dismantle the NHS. David Cameron has experienced it a lot more than I have with his late son being so ill. They want to change it as does Labour, Lib Dems and SNP. If you look at Sweden as an example as people like to make out it is some kind of paradise, ordinary people pay prescription fees, they pay to visit a doctor, they pay to visit a hospital, they pay when they use an ambulance. All capped but still a patient pays which may stop abuse and also helps raise extra money. Indeed the UK spends almost as much as Sweden. My experience of NHS in Scotland is some good and some bad. It is not a utopia. There is much waste and I've constantly seen those "Angel" nurses not giving a shit especially if the patient is aged and infirm. I definitely do not think the NHS should be on the pedestal that people put it on and it should deliver more and better. People hide behind the banner of the NHS.

 

I also feel very strongly against your "them and us" insinuation that Scottish people are somehow morally better than English people especially as you have lived there so long. Always struggle with how so many Scots seem to feel uncomfortable living in England. The term "Little England" is a false one. What is "Little England"? The majority of people in England live in urban areas that are more multicultural and have higher levels of immigration than Scottish cities. Could you point out "Little England" for me on the map? I would never describe myself as left-wing so I cannot be included in your Scottish description but it does not mean I care less about what you do.

 

I feel the people in Scotland who have continued this left leaning have not moved on and read from a 1960's script instead of a 2010's script including their political ideology. The obsession with the state providing means people care less, they expect others to do it for them with simple examples such as people not cleaning their closes to dropping litter to abusing themselves through drink and smoking and eating and expecting NHS to solve the problems they have caused. Scotland has always had a centre right tradition with the "wha's like us" and "lad o' pairts" view. I find Scotland can be more conservative than England. The obsession with national identity and nationalism. The low levels of immigration. The "I kent yer faither", keeping people in their place. I would argue Scotland is as pro-monarchy as England (ignoring any Rangers/Orange connotations) and as for bringing up The Empire. What Empire!?!? There was an Empire that ended in the sixties and was built enthusiastically by Scots who benefited from it hugely in all it's spheres rightly or wrongly. Scotland played a huge part in the Empire and has never acknowledged or accepted it's rightful part in the process.

[Vladimir Putin]

 

 

I would argue Scotland is as pro-monarchy as England (ignoring any Rangers/Orange connotations)

 

If that was true at one point, and the older generation in Scotland are much more pro-Royal than the younger ones in my view, the relative reactions of the two countries to the Royal Wedding would suggest it's certainly not true any longer. Where were the Scottish street parties? The only reaction I'm aware of was a drunken riot in Kelvingrove. I do wonder about the SNP's stance when it comes to the Royal Family - I would imagine a large number of people who actually want an independent Scotland would also want to get rid of the Royal Family (espcially when you look at who the next King will be...).

[Blackpool Jags]

Blackpool Jag. Your posts can be quite politically biased due to your union work so if you are talking about vhemently opposed to the formatioin of the NHS you need to add the British Medical Association was one of the most opposed. That's right. Those hero doctors. But that was 60 years ago so no point bringing it up. I don't believe the Conservatives want to dismantle the NHS. David Cameron has experienced it a lot more than I have with his late son being so ill. They want to change it as does Labour, Lib Dems and SNP. If you look at Sweden as an example as people like to make out it is some kind of paradise, ordinary people pay prescription fees, they pay to visit a doctor, they pay to visit a hospital, they pay when they use an ambulance. All capped but still a patient pays which may stop abuse and also helps raise extra money. Indeed the UK spends almost as much as Sweden. My experience of NHS in Scotland is some good and some bad. It is not a utopia. There is much waste and I've constantly seen those "Angel" nurses not giving a shit especially if the patient is aged and infirm. I definitely do not think the NHS should be on the pedestal that people put it on and it should deliver more and better. People hide behind the banner of the NHS.

 

I also feel very strongly against your "them and us" insinuation that Scottish people are somehow morally better than English people especially as you have lived there so long. Always struggle with how so many Scots seem to feel uncomfortable living in England. The term "Little England" is a false one. What is "Little England"? The majority of people in England live in urban areas that are more multicultural and have higher levels of immigration than Scottish cities. Could you point out "Little England" for me on the map? I would never describe myself as left-wing so I cannot be included in your Scottish description but it does not mean I care less about what you do.

 

I feel the people in Scotland who have continued this left leaning have not moved on and read from a 1960's script instead of a 2010's script including their political ideology. The obsession with the state providing means people care less, they expect others to do it for them with simple examples such as people not cleaning their closes to dropping litter to abusing themselves through drink and smoking and eating and expecting NHS to solve the problems they have caused. Scotland has always had a centre right tradition with the "wha's like us" and "lad o' pairts" view. I find Scotland can be more conservative than England. The obsession with national identity and nationalism. The low levels of immigration. The "I kent yer faither", keeping people in their place. I would argue Scotland is as pro-monarchy as England (ignoring any Rangers/Orange connotations) and as for bringing up The Empire. What Empire!?!? There was an Empire that ended in the sixties and was built enthusiastically by Scots who benefited from it hugely in all it's spheres rightly or wrongly. Scotland played a huge part in the Empire and has never acknowledged or accepted it's rightful part in the process.

 

LLD, my posts might be biased, as you put it, but that's not due to my union work; my political views were originally formed in my mid-teens and developed and reinforced by my experiences of working life, including being a 17 year-old shop steward on Clydeside in the mid-'70s, whom management wouldn't recognise.

 

You won't find me extolling the virtues of the BMA (who, incidentally are diametrically opposed to the Tories' plans to "atomise the NHS" - the words of a senior BMA official with whom I shared a platform at a public meeting a few months ago), the Swedish healthcare model, or much outside our own system.

 

I'd respectfully ask you not to be fooled by Cameron's faux amour of the Health Service; he stands foursquare behind Lansley's universally detested plans to have the reforms implemented. Whether or not he chose to use NHS services for his son's treatment, he's a very rich individual who heads up a party that are heavily patronised by big business, and so is beholden to them in all sorts of ways; many of these corporations have set up 'healthcare wings' of their industries with the express intention of cashing in on the lucrative business opportunities which the Tories' helpful reforms will make available to them. NB Boots. Onto the main debating point: Scottish independence, and your assertions of a "them and us" and/or "morally better" mentality. I don't think I tried to make any 'we're better than them' points, merely stating the fact that, politically, we (Scotland) have traditionally returned a critical mass of Labour MPs which, as a point of fact, has prevented the formation of Tory governments at regular intervals; that can't be disputed. The devolved Scottish Parliament has legislated on a range of social benefits - eg University tuition fees; heating bill caps for the elderly; free internal transport for the elderly; free prescriptions; and many others - which, again - a fact - you won't see in England. And the English electorate continue to to vote Tory (generally speaking, of course). It's hard to get away from that. But of course these are only generalisations, but they are significant enough to demonstrate visible demographic differences. For the record, and despite everything I've said here, I'm not a Nationalist, ie I don't really want to see the break-up of the UK on the basis of perceptions that 'Scotland is better than England' or anything like that. Nevertheless, I don't think it can be ignored that Scotland is clearly more socially progressive than its Southern counterpart, and if breaking the constitutional ties is the only way to maintain social and political development then I wish Scotland, my country, all the very best in doing so.

[JAGZ1876]

'thechangingman' date='17 September 2011 - 02:21 PM' if it was pumped to england would it be their oil?

Yes it would. I Remember natural gas being found off the English coast in the 60s, and on enquiring why it cost more in Scotland than in England, being told it's the extra cost of piping it to Scotland (If you jock's don't like it go and find your own gas). Funny that, because from the 70s onward when the oil was being piped into Scotland fuel was still considerably cheaper in England.

Edited September 20, 2011 by JAGZ1876

[Guy Incognito]

I also feel very strongly against your "them and us" insinuation that Scottish people are somehow morally better than English people especially as you have lived there so long. Always struggle with how so many Scots seem to feel uncomfortable living in England.

Do you not think there could be something behind that then? Something that goes a little deeper than not being able to get decent rolls anywhere south of Carlisle.

 

The term "Little England" is a false one. What is "Little England"? The majority of people in England live in urban areas that are more multicultural and have higher levels of immigration than Scottish cities.

Large parts England are still overwhelmingly white; not every large English town and city is like London.

I don't know how often you get back up to Glasgow but it is a very multicultural place these days, although I do except probably not to the same extent as most of England's major cities.

 

I feel the people in Scotland who have continued this left leaning have not moved on and read from a 1960's script instead of a 2010's script including their political ideology. The obsession with the state providing means people care less, they expect others to do it for them with simple examples such as people not cleaning their closes to dropping litter to abusing themselves through drink and smoking and eating and expecting NHS to solve the problems they have caused.

Nice to know that you hold your countrymen in such high esteem. If memory serves, litter isn't exactly absent from England's streets either; neither are people who abuse themselves with drink and drugs, sadly. Personally, I regard people who litter unnecessarily to be completely at odds with the principles of socialism, so I am not sure how you can blame socialist ideology there either (unless I am picking you up wrong).

 

I find Scotland can be more conservative than England. The obsession with national identity and nationalism. The low levels of immigration. The "I kent yer faither", keeping people in their place.

Count the number of St George's crosses you see flying next summer when England take their place at the European Championships (as they almost certainly will)and then consider that second statement! The Scottish government has no control of migration in to Scotland - none whatsoever, so I don't think you can cite that as example. England is also famous for, and some would say revels, in its class system - a system that for years has strived to keep people "in their place".

 

I would argue Scotland is as pro-monarchy as England (ignoring any Rangers/Orange connotations) and as for bringing up The Empire. What Empire!?!? There was an Empire that ended in the sixties and was built enthusiastically by Scots who benefited from it hugely in all it's spheres rightly or wrongly. Scotland played a huge part in the Empire and has never acknowledged or accepted it's rightful part in the process.

I agree that some Scots did very well under the empire (whilst some did very badly); and it is virtually undeniable that Glasgow, as a city, flourished during the early days of the British Empire. However, save for forty thousand or so Scots who gather every other Saturday on the south side of that city to extol the virtues of the aforementioned empire, it doesn't really feature strongly in the psyche of most Scots. Maybe that is due to a realisation that we were very much a junior partner in the empire; maybe it is due to a cringe factor that we were even involved at all; or, perhaps it is because the concept of having once been part of the biggest empire the world has ever known just doesn't "do it" for many people in Scotland - in which case, you have to wonder why that is, when it seems so much more important to people in England. Could it be indicative of a socio-political difference?

[Lambies Lost Doo]

Hats off to Blackpool Jags for his earlier comments.

 

I don't like the chopping up of quotes from discussions on message boards as to me it happers the flow of the debate but I will reply back.

 

Do you not think there could be something behind that then? Something that goes a little deeper than not being able to get decent rolls anywhere south of Carlisle.

No. I've felt more comfortable in places in England than in places in Scotland, but also vice versa as there is nothing quite like being home. It can be down to how rough the place is and the vibe but I think we are much more similar to the English than we care or like to admit. When I thing about "Scotland" I really think about Glasgow. I hardly know the rest of the place and to be honest I'm not that bothered about say Aberdeen or Inverness. What have I got in common with a fisherman from Peterhead or a privately educated lawyer in Edinburgh or a gaelic speaker in Skye? As much as an accountant from Manchester and a civil servant from Cambridge.

 

Large parts England are still overwhelmingly white; not every large English town and city is like London. I don't know how often you get back up to Glasgow but it is a very multicultural place these days, although I do except probably not to the same extent as most of England's major cities.

I'm up every fornight these days so it's back to being part of normal life. Agreed London does skew things slightly and I want to emphasise I do not have this moral snobbery that if a place is predominantly white then it's a bad thing but things like sectariansim and obsession with nationality are not my thing and to me being part of the UK helps to dilute this. One of my good mates from Manchester is catholic. Took me six years to find out. In West of Scotland it's one of the first things you find out about people.

 

Nice to know that you hold your countrymen in such high esteem. If memory serves, litter isn't exactly absent from England's streets either; neither are people who abuse themselves with drink and drugs, sadly. Personally, I regard people who litter unnecessarily to be completely at odds with the principles of socialism, so I am not sure how you can blame socialist ideology there either (unless I am picking you up wrong).

My theory is socialism in whatever form means people expect the state to do things for them. Obviously we need public and social services but people expect others to do things for them which is wrong especially when they can do it themselves and take responsibility. Nothing wrong with criticising elements of Scotland. Does not make me a traitor.

 

Count the number of St George's crosses you see flying next summer when England take their place at the European Championships (as they almost certainly will)and then consider that second statement! The Scottish government has no control of migration in to Scotland - none whatsoever, so I don't think you can cite that as example. England is also famous for, and some would say revels, in its class system - a system that for years has strived to keep people "in their place".

That's football and hats off for the English to get behind their team before they then tear them apart for abject performances. As for class system. You ever been to Caledonian Club in London? As snobby and class obsessed as anything in England. How many kids from Maryhill get to Edinburgh or St Andrews uni? How will Scottish kids afford to go to Cambridge or Oxford Uni now we have all this border skirmishing over uni tuition fees. That to me is keeping people "in their place".

 

I agree that some Scots did very well under the empire (whilst some did very badly); and it is virtually undeniable that Glasgow, as a city, flourished during the early days of the British Empire. However, save for forty thousand or so Scots who gather every other Saturday on the south side of that city to extol the virtues of the aforementioned empire, it doesn't really feature strongly in the psyche of most Scots. Maybe that is due to a realisation that we were very much a junior partner in the empire; maybe it is due to a cringe factor that we were even involved at all; or, perhaps it is because the concept of having once been part of the biggest empire the world has ever known just doesn't "do it" for many people in Scotland - in which case, you have to wonder why that is, when it seems so much more important to people in England. Could it be indicative of a socio-political difference?

 

The term "Junior Partner" is used by nationalists to make out Scotland is hampered as it only has 10% of the population of England. I did Scottish history at uni. Off the top of my head 50% of Governor Generals were Scottish. Scotland punched above it's weight in military and business terms. Tom Devine who I was lucky to taught for one year has a new book out about Scottish Diaspora and while I have yet to read it it will be honest and brutally truthful which will damage the romantic notions of Scotland in the empire. English people have the same attitude as Scottish. It happened. It's in the past. I think some Scottish people have tried to gloss over what Scotland did.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/books-and-poetry/reviews/tom-devine-to-the-ends-of-the-earth-scotland-s-global-diaspora-1750-2010-allen-lane-1.1116021

Edited September 21, 2011 by Lambies Lost Doo

[JAGZ1876]

Lambies Lost Doo, you said that you didn't know your friend from Manchester was a catholic for six years, i have friends that i have known for over thirty years and still don't know their religion, or if they have one, as an atheist its not high on my agenda.

[GrantB]

Lambies Lost Doo, you said that you didn't know your friend from Manchester was a catholic for six years, i have friends that i have known for over thirty years and still don't know their religion, or if they have one, as an atheist its not high on my agenda.

 

Ditto. I've got a mate I've known for over 20 years and I had no idea he was catholic either. Doesn't just happen in England.

[GrantB]

No comment neccessary....

 

 

Kelvin Mackenzie

[stillresigned]

Undoubtedly, yes.

[JAGZ1876]

The more i here about Kelvin Mackenzie, the more i come round to the view that he is Wee Eck's Trojan horse.

[Firhillista]

If the union continues, what changes? The central argument of those who oppose independence is, this is as good as it gets and voting for independence will only make things worse. Not the most inspiring rallying call, is it? The argument for Scottish self-determination has been won. None of the political parties - not Labour, nor the Tories, nor the Lib-Dems - are arguing that things should stay the same. The focus now is all on Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK and HOW this should be altered, not IF it should be. Personally, I can't see that a 'devolution-max' or 'independence-lite' model would bring the kind of advantages that full independence will, so I'm all for voting yes when the time comes.

 

And while I'm on about it, why do supporters of the union assume that their position is somehow not nationalistic? We're being asked to choose between two different brands of nationalism - Scottish or UK - not between nationalism and internationalism. I get why the word 'nationalism' bothers some folk, and it's certainly caused more than a few to accuse the SNP of being narrow, right-wing, feral chauvinists, in line with the Nazis and Serbian nationalists, etc., but the reality of what Scottish nationalism is about is so contrary to that view that surely even the most staunchly pro-union supporter must accept the falsity of that idea?

 

We have an opportunity over the next few years to fundamentally change how things are done in this country of ours and I honestly believe that if we take this opportunity not only will it improve things for people living in Scotland, it'll also improve things for those who live in the other constituent parts of the UK.

[Jaggernaut]

If the union continues, what changes? The central argument of those who oppose independence is, this is as good as it gets and voting for independence will only make things worse. Not the most inspiring rallying call, is it? The argument for Scottish self-determination has been won. None of the political parties - not Labour, nor the Tories, nor the Lib-Dems - are arguing that things should stay the same. The focus now is all on Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK and HOW this should be altered, not IF it should be. Personally, I can't see that a 'devolution-max' or 'independence-lite' model would bring the kind of advantages that full independence will, so I'm all for voting yes when the time comes.

 

And while I'm on about it, why do supporters of the union assume that their position is somehow not nationalistic? We're being asked to choose between two different brands of nationalism - Scottish or UK - not between nationalism and internationalism. I get why the word 'nationalism' bothers some folk, and it's certainly caused more than a few to accuse the SNP of being narrow, right-wing, feral chauvinists, in line with the Nazis and Serbian nationalists, etc., but the reality of what Scottish nationalism is about is so contrary to that view that surely even the most staunchly pro-union supporter must accept the falsity of that idea?

 

We have an opportunity over the next few years to fundamentally change how things are done in this country of ours and I honestly believe that if we take this opportunity not only will it improve things for people living in Scotland, it'll also improve things for those who live in the other constituent parts of the UK.

Excellent Monday morning opener.

[alx]

I was worrying a bit last night talking to an old school friend in Balloch. Why am I so happy clappy????!!!! A lifetime of being the SNP underdug and then we're really popular all of a sudden. What can go wrong????? It's actually really difficult to imagine any major problems. We've just been through a severe recession, with maybe another one coming along. But the good ship Scotland is gliding through the waters serenely. It's weird I tell ye! It's brilliant to have a competent Government in Edinburgh that is basically trusted to do the right thing in tricky times. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself with Bank Holiday cheer but everyone seems really content these days. Anyhoo that's enough of the happy clappy stuff, must think of something to whinge about......

 

 

[Lambies Lost Doo]

Anyone who is content really shows how apathetic people are and to cling on to the hope that independence will make everything sunny and happy is crazy. The SNP will have had 9 years to have made a dent in areas such as health, education and social deprivation but I expect not much will change. The East End will still be a dump, we'll still have lots of junkies and an underclass, education potters along but it's a case of where your house is and the associated school rather than intelligence of the youngster. It's the same old sh!t but different masters in a different location. As a previous poster mentioned only a fundamental change in political ideology would really affect people's lives instead of moving decision making from London to Edinburgh.

 

Here ends a political broadcast from the Dour Party.

[Meister Jag]

Anyone who is content really shows how apathetic people are and to cling on to the hope that independence will make everything sunny and happy is crazy. The SNP will have had 9 years to have made a dent in areas such as health, education and social deprivation but I expect not much will change. The East End will still be a dump, we'll still have lots of junkies and an underclass, education potters along but it's a case of where your house is and the associated school rather than intelligence of the youngster. It's the same old sh!t but different masters in a different location. As a previous poster mentioned only a fundamental change in political ideology would really affect people's lives instead of moving decision making from London to Edinburgh.

 

Here ends a political broadcast from the Dour Party.

 

Think I'm with you and have made similar points in earlier posts. Who's life will change for the better/ same old sam old IMO.

[JAGZ1876]

So being content is a sign of apathy! How do you come to that conclusion? People are happy when they see a government that is actually putting the people's interest first, the little things like seeing the jobless figures fall

council tax freezes, free prescriptions, free travel for over 60s, free universities, etc. It's you guy's who are apathetic, longing to be back with Labours false hope's and broken promise's, when you should be looking forward to a brighter future, looking after our own affair's in a Scotland we can all be proud of.

[jaggybunnet]

So being content is a sign of apathy! How do you come to that conclusion? People are happy when they see a government that is actually putting the people's interest first, the little things like seeing the jobless figures fall

council tax freezes, free prescriptions, free travel for over 60s, free universities, etc. It's you guy's who are apathetic, longing to be back with Labours false hope's and broken promise's, when you should be looking forward to a brighter future, looking after our own affair's in a Scotland we can all be proud of.

 

 

the problem is who is paying for all this freebees and our council taxes are high anyway

[GrantB]

Anyone who is content really shows how apathetic people are and to cling on to the hope that independence will make everything sunny and happy is crazy. The SNP will have had 9 years to have made a dent in areas such as health, education and social deprivation but I expect not much will change. The East End will still be a dump, we'll still have lots of junkies and an underclass, education potters along but it's a case of where your house is and the associated school rather than intelligence of the youngster. It's the same old sh!t but different masters in a different location. As a previous poster mentioned only a fundamental change in political ideology would really affect people's lives instead of moving decision making from London to Edinburgh.

 

Here ends a political broadcast from the Dour Party.

 

Oh dear, we might as well all give up if everyone has this attitude.

 

To me, independence is all about a can-do attitude. It's about standing on our own two feet and being proud. It's about doing things for ourselves instead of being told we are too small and insignificant to do them.

 

I'm proud of Scotland and I'm proud of the achievements of the SNP government.

[JAGZ1876]

the problem is who is paying for all this freebees and our council taxes are high anyway

We are Jaggy, and when we are running our own affairs maybe we can all work together to lower council taxes and other taxes, and put more money into a Scottish N.H.S, more money into education, creating more jobs, treating our elderly with dignity, etc, it won't be easy, but it is a challenge that i and millions of other people who live in this wonderful country will relish, off our knee's and standing tall.

[yoda-jag]

Oh dear, we might as well all give up if everyone has this attitude.

 

To me, independence is all about a can-do attitude. It's about standing on our own two feet and being proud. It's about doing things for ourselves instead of being told we are too small and insignificant to do them.

 

I'm proud of Scotland and I'm proud of the achievements of the SNP government.

 

 

We are Jaggy, and when we are running our own affairs maybe we can all work together to lower council taxes and other taxes, and put more money into a Scottish N.H.S, more money into education, creating more jobs, treating our elderly with dignity, etc, it won't be easy, but it is a challenge that i and millions of other people who live in this wonderful country will relish, off our knee's and standing tall.

 

 

sums it up for me these two posts

Edited September 27, 2011 by yoda-jag

[Lambies Lost Doo]

Oh dear, we might as well all give up if everyone has this attitude.

 

To me, independence is all about a can-do attitude. It's about standing on our own two feet and being proud. It's about doing things for ourselves instead of being told we are too small and insignificant to do them.

 

I'm proud of Scotland and I'm proud of the achievements of the SNP government.

I am proud. I am an individual. I don't need a politician based in Edinburgh to make me feel good about myself. I don't know who is saying Scotland is too small and insignificant. I don't think it is. I just don't like the idea of separation to allow nationalist politics to make a power grab and keep them in a job for life. The credit crunch an Ireland and Iceland showed a bigger economy helps us in times of major need.

 

We are Jaggy, and when we are running our own affairs maybe we can all work together to lower council taxes and other taxes, and put more money into a Scottish N.H.S, more money into education, creating more jobs, treating our elderly with dignity, etc, it won't be easy, but it is a challenge that i and millions of other people who live in this wonderful country will relish, off our knee's and standing tall.

Scottish Parliament is in charge of Council Tax, in charge of NHS, in charge of education (which has been criticised by Education Scotland http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-15084598 ), in charge of capital projects, in charge of caring for the elderly. I have never been on my knees - an emotional and over the top comment.

 

At a time when the EU and the Euro is in crisis and very disunited with so many countries unable to agree on Euro policy and the world is rapidly changing with the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India and China) countries growing stronger staying in a large economy, working together in a position of strength instead of cutting ourselves off and telling the English an Welsh and Northern Irish to piss off is not an open minde way of thinking.

[Jaggernaut]

I am proud. I am an individual. I don't need a politician based in Edinburgh to make me feel good about myself. I don't know who is saying Scotland is too small and insignificant. I don't think it is. I just don't like the idea of separation to allow nationalist politics to make a power grab and keep them in a job for life. The credit crunch an Ireland and Iceland showed a bigger economy helps us in times of major need.

 

 

Scottish Parliament is in charge of Council Tax, in charge of NHS, in charge of education (which has been criticised by Education Scotland http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-15084598 ), in charge of capital projects, in charge of caring for the elderly. I have never been on my knees - an emotional and over the top comment.

 

At a time when the EU and the Euro is in crisis and very disunited with so many countries unable to agree on Euro policy and the world is rapidly changing with the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India and China) countries growing stronger staying in a large economy, working together in a position of strength instead of cutting ourselves off and telling the English an Welsh and Northern Irish to piss off is not an open minde way of thinking.

Nonsense. An independent Scotland would be just as integrated in the world economy as any other industrialized nation.

 

It seems to escape British nationalists (which is what unionists are) that the UK is in debt to levels that it will probably never be able to pay off, certainly not in any of our lifetimes. What a success!

 

And nationalists in power are no more or less likely to be in a job for life than unionist politicians. Talk about being blinkered!!

[honved]

I thought Ed Miliband's speech to the Labour conference was interesting in that it didn't mention or even allude to the independence issue at any stage. He did find time to talk at length about the NHS reforms (England only) and university fees (England only). The only time Scotland was mentioned was in relation to his predecessors failures to properly regulate the banking sector, when he mentioned RBS as The Royal Bank of Scotland.

 

The fact is, the whole idea of a United Kingdom is a sham. At least 50% of Miliband's speech was irrelevant to anyone in Scotland. I'd suggest that about 95% of the BBC HQ's news, sport and current affairs output is irrelevant.

 

The UK really doesn't exist, only in the minds of career politicians and the warmongers who exploit the UK government's foreign policy fixation.

[JAGZ1876]

I am proud. I am an individual. I don't need a politician based in Edinburgh to make me feel good about myself. I don't know who is saying Scotland is too small and insignificant. I don't think it is. I just don't like the idea of separation to allow nationalist politics to make a power grab and keep them in a job for life. The credit crunch an Ireland and Iceland showed a bigger economy helps us in times of major need.

 

 

Scottish Parliament is in charge of Council Tax, in charge of NHS, in charge of education (which has been criticised by Education Scotland http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-15084598 ), in charge of capital projects, in charge of caring for the elderly. I have never been on my knees - an emotional and over the top comment.

 

At a time when the EU and the Euro is in crisis and very disunited with so many countries unable to agree on Euro policy and the world is rapidly changing with the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India and China) countries growing stronger staying in a large economy, working together in a position of strength instead of cutting ourselves off and telling the English an Welsh and Northern Irish to piss off is not an open minde way of thinking.

You are missing my point L.L.D, If we can do what we've done with the council tax, making the N.H.S in Scotland stronger than their English counterparts, and the other achievements that i have highlighted whilst westminster holds the purse strings, just think what we could do with full control of our financial affairs. As for saying piss off to English, Welsh & Northern Irish, that's insulting as they will be more than capable of looking after themselves. As for cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world (where do you get these idea's from) we are joining the worlds nations as the proud internationists we are. Edited September 28, 2011 by JAGZ1876