Guy Incognito Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 Hmm, would I vote for independence? Possibly and solely because I believe that the SNP have bit more soul and social conscience about them than the other parties of the Union. For all I bang on about socialism and far-left issues, most of that is just to take issues with the empire loyalist attack dogs on this forum (we all know who they are and probably pity them!). However, I do believe that the SNP is the pick of a bad bunch. But can the SNP deliver long lasting social change, no, I don't think it can. For socialists, internationalism is a sacred principle. "The working man has no country" and all that... and to quote the founder of scientific socialism. This has been a good debate and I promise I won't go off on one! But I tend to agree with the internationalist perspective and view all forms of nationalist politics with a degree of caution. Not that I think that the SNP are in any way an extremest party; although they did have such elements in their ranks at one stage. My cousin for one and he's a Jags fan; so I'd better watch what I'm saying. But some of the anti-English stuff I heard about wealth control and land ownership was beyond belief. Never the fact that he was a classic case of class exploitation that needed to be reversed; just blame the English - even waiters in Highland hotels who've pinched our jobs. (He strangely never claims that of Eastern European migrant workers; which I guess proves my point.) But yes, very apathetic and not convinced that independence would deliver any real change and there would certainly be no marked differences to the lives of most ordinary people. However, if the SNP wants to start talking about taking key industries back into public ownership e.g. power companies and public transport, and start making decisions that would be for the common good, then I might start showing a real interest in what might be possible for our small country. But just now, they seem content to play within the global economic system; and isn't that system a success!! Sorry to come across all doom and gloom and I hope your dream becomes a reality. Some good points there and I can understand some of your reservations. The SNP do seem to be in thrall to big business as much as any of the other mainstream parties and there possibly still is a tiny, lunatic fringe who have a blind spot when it comes to criticising the English, in a way they never would any other nationality. However, I think there is still much more scope for your socialist dreams to be realised in an independent Scotland than in the UK, so it is good to know that you are at least amenable to the idea of independence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 how about they are daft Maybe it's not us that are daft... Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Maybe it's not us that are daft... Just a thought. no, def those that votes snp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 no, def those that votes snp So when we get independence (and we will), are you going to move to England? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thechangingman Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 So when we get independence (and we will), are you going to move to England? The union will be broken when England no longer wants Scotland , Salmond can't achieve independence by breakaway so is trying for expulsion , different route same end up ,and how could a country with so few tax payers support itself financially, "Modern unions" i.e. the E.U. aren't working on many levels , and breakaway states aint either ,look at Ireland in less than 100 years they had rebellion , independence, civil war and bankruptcy , leave the union as is in my opinion . etter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) So when we get independence (and we will), are you going to move to England? why would i?? and they wont Edited October 2, 2011 by jaggybunnet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 The union will be broken when England no longer wants Scotland , Salmond can't achieve independence by breakaway so is trying for expulsion , different route same end up ,and how could a country with so few tax payers support itself financially, "Modern unions" i.e. the E.U. aren't working on many levels , and breakaway states aint either ,look at Ireland in less than 100 years they had rebellion , independence, civil war and bankruptcy , leave the union as is in my opinion . etter Why look at Ireland? Never mind this Celtic dragon nonsense. Ireland has little in common with Scotland, has few natural resources and a smaller population with a history of emigration to the USA and beyond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firhillista Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 As someone who's described himself as socialist all of his adult life - while consistently voting for the SNP in the hope of seeing Scottish independence - I get why those on the left distrust the idea of putting energy into the creation of an independent Scotland: the whole notion of nation states and nationalism might not sit comfortably within a Marxist view of the world which stresses class as the defining identifier of people. However, I believe that the Marxist view of nationalism as just another tool of the ruling classes to manipulate the people is fundamentally wrong, while accepting that there's plenty of evidence in history and the present day to justify such a view. Yes, waving the flag to get folk to go and kill other folk or to persuade people to accept cuts to their wages and living conditions all in the name of 'our country' is repellent, although only too familiar. But a shared allegiance to a nation isn't about that, even if such an allegiance can be corrupted by those in power. It's about a common identity, a common culture, a sense of belonging to something bigger than ourselves as individuals. There's plenty of evidence to support the view that this is something hard wired into all humans - a need to belong to something bigger, a desire to be part of a community. At one level, it's family, beyond that the place where you come from, your football team and, ultimately, your country. Isn't this why adopted children seek out their birth parents, even when they see their adopted parents as their 'real' mother and father? And why people spend a small fortune tracking down their ancestors to find out 'where they come from'? Any why we all can shed tears over the sporting performance of some guys in dark blue shirts? And it isn't a community that excludes those who are not of 'the blood' - how many feel a passionate commitment to the place they've emigrated to? Look at the number of people of English, Irish, Asian extraction who stand as SNP candidates. I honestly believe that the values of socialism - equality, fairness, the opportunity for all to achieve their potential - will be more able to be realised in an independent Scotland that within the UK, but I profoundly hope the other constituent parts of what is currently the United Kingdom come to the same view, it's just that this is MY community, so I'd rather see it happening here, sooner rather than later. My problem with unionists is that they promote another nation - the UK - over my nation, Scotland, whilst arguing that they are somehow not nationalists but something else, although they never quite indicate what this is. Socialists may have a problem with voting for a nationalist party, but as Hugh McDiarmid said, how can you be an internationalist without being a nationalist first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 My problem with unionists is that they promote another nation - the UK - over my nation, Scotland, whilst arguing that they are somehow not nationalists but something else, although they never quite indicate what this is. Socialists may have a problem with voting for a nationalist party, but as Hugh McDiarmid said, how can you be an internationalist without being a nationalist first? There is no way around it; unionists are British nationalists, which for some reasons (often different from one individual to another) they see as OK whereas English nationalism or Scottish nationalism is something that must be defeated. I'd love it for Cameron (as some reports suggest) to try to pre-empt Salmond by organizing a referendum on Scottish independence, as I believe that the majority of people in Scotland would vote for exactly that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 There is no way around it; unionists are British nationalists, which for some reasons (often different from one individual to another) they see as OK whereas English nationalism or Scottish nationalism is something that must be defeated. I'd love it for Cameron (as some reports suggest) to try to pre-empt Salmond by organizing a referendum on Scottish independence, as I believe that the majority of people in Scotland would vote for exactly that. kidding your self on there, if slimemand though he could win he would have had it by now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 kidding your self on there, if slimemand though he could win he would have had it by now You are in for one hell of a shock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 You are in for one hell of a shock! you want it so push the wee scroat slimemand to do it then, will be a bit like the yes vote me thinks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thechangingman Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Why look at Ireland? Never mind this Celtic dragon nonsense. Ireland has little in common with Scotland, has few natural resources and a smaller population with a history of emigration to the USA and beyond. Is that not like Scotland then? Ok, in Europe too many smaller breakaway states not equipped to support thier infrastructure and dragging down the bigger "traditional" euro states , dont fancy any of that , better to stay in a Union that works than one that doesn't, or try to go it alone and end up a banana republic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Is that not like Scotland then? Ok, in Europe too many smaller breakaway states not equipped to support thier infrastructure and dragging down the bigger "traditional" euro states , dont fancy any of that , better to stay in a Union that works than one that doesn't, or try to go it alone and end up a banana republic. We have water, oil, whisky, are leading the world in renewable energy and have a strong financial sector (even after the banking crisis). Why not compare us to some Eurozone success stories like the Baltic states or does that not suit the unionist agenda? As for suggesting that the union works, that is a matter of opinion. I don't like my country fighting illegal wars or having a Tory party that represents about 1% of the population of Scotland being in charge of my country. I see Annabell Goldie is telling us that Britishness is a state of mind. Well, I've never considered myself British and I cringe with embarassment when I am called British. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Is that not like Scotland then? Ok, in Europe too many smaller breakaway states not equipped to support thier infrastructure and dragging down the bigger "traditional" euro states , dont fancy any of that , better to stay in a Union that works than one that doesn't, or try to go it alone and end up a banana republic. The big error in British nationalists' opposition to the idea that Scotland could be a viable and successful independent nation. There is no "alone" in the world anymore. Nations trade with other nations. Scotland has plenty of resources that it could trade to pay its own way in the world, but it is not allowed to because London takes the revenue and then decides what to hand back. Who's doing the dragging down here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Scruff Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) So, how do you think that the entrepreneurial spirit will be reinvigorated by retaining the status quo? If this has dissipated as a result of being in the union, then how is remaining in it going to help? I'm no expert in this field but the SNP's plan involves imposing a lower corporation tax, thus encouraging businesses to locate themselves in Scotland. However, I think there is still much more scope for your socialist dreams to be realised in an independent Scotland than in the UK, so it is good to know that you are at least amenable to the idea of independence. Interesting. MJ wants complete state control of the economy. I'd be in favour of a system which encouraged a resurgence of our entrepreneurial spirit and re-energized our economy. Your suggestion is that these are equally delivered through independence? Edited October 2, 2011 by Mr Scruff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thechangingman Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 We have water, oil, whisky, are leading the world in renewable energy and have a strong financial sector (even after the banking crisis). Why not compare us to some Eurozone success stories like the Baltic states or does that not suit the unionist agenda? As for suggesting that the union works, that is a matter of opinion. I don't like my country fighting illegal wars or having a Tory party that represents about 1% of the population of Scotland being in charge of my country. I see Annabell Goldie is telling us that Britishness is a state of mind. Well, I've never considered myself British and I cringe with embarassment when I am called British. The whisky industry is a globally massive one and as such needs as much govermental backing and kudos as it can get , would it be happy with representation by a smaller body ,the oil thing has been done to death is it really "ours" , no one wants to be involved in any war and its offensive to suggest otherwise, on a wider note someone said there is no going it alone anymore , if so then why bother with independence ? . If you don't feel particularily British thats fine, its as always a personal choice , glaswegian , scottish, british, european whichever , as for the baltic states , would suggest all is not rosy when so many of thier finest and brightest people are choosing to migrate to western europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAGZ1876 Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) kidding your self on there, if slimemand though he could win he would have had it by now Jaggy, i take it that you didn't read the SNPs manifesto before the election in May (of course you didn't) for if you had you would have read that the referendum would be held towards the end of the current term. Why would they hold it five months into a five year term,it wouldn't make sense, it gives them plenty of time to prove to the doubters and uk nationalists like yourself that we can run our affairs better, that we can make Scotland stronger and a better place to live for ourselves and our children, we owe it to the future generations of this proud land, our destiny is in our own hands lets not let it slip through our fingers, and consign ourselves to more Westminster rule and mismanagement. Jaggy i was sorry to read that your sister is losing her job in the NHS, but sadly this is the sign of the times we live in these day's, as you rightly said SNP cuts, alas these cuts come as a result of a reduction to the money we get from Westminster known as the Barnett Formula (for the benefit of those who are unaware of this system, it's like when you got your first job after leaving school and came home on the friday with your wage packet, handing it over to your mother she takes out her share for the bills, cooking, washing etc, known in my day as dig money, then she hands you back your allowance/pocket money)so unfortunately cuts have to be made across the board. But in an indepenent Scotland, having full fiscal autonomy not only would she still be in her job, she would be better paid and have better working conditions. And finally before i go can i ask you Jaggy, what has happened to your debating skill's?, when this topic started at the beginning of September you were putting forward intelligent and coherent views, i didn't agree with them but i respected your right to say them, now four weeks later your posts seem to have ran out of steam, they are just a collection of insults, "SNP voters are daft", Slimemand!, that's poor even for you, what next? SNP voters smell of poo. You are almost at the stage of sticking your fingers in your ears and going La La La La. Edited October 2, 2011 by JAGZ1876 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 If you don't feel particularily British thats fine, its as always a personal choice , glaswegian , scottish, british, european whichever , as for the baltic states , would suggest all is not rosy when so many of thier finest and brightest people are choosing to migrate to western europe. One in ten people born in Britain emigrate for a better life elsewhere. Just take a look around this forum and you'll see no shortage of examples from Scotland. For whatever reason, the British union doesn't seem so great that those folk want to live here. I'm not saying that an independent Scotland would definitely be more attractive, but I've talked to people who live abroad who have said it would make the prospect of returning more likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) The whisky industry is a globally massive one and as such needs as much govermental backing and kudos as it can get , would it be happy with representation by a smaller body ,the oil thing has been done to death is it really "ours" , no one wants to be involved in any war and its offensive to suggest otherwise, on a wider note someone said there is no going it alone anymore , if so then why bother with independence ? . If you don't feel particularily British thats fine, its as always a personal choice , glaswegian , scottish, british, european whichever , as for the baltic states , would suggest all is not rosy when so many of thier finest and brightest people are choosing to migrate to western europe. I currently work in the whisky industry and I'm pretty sure they would rather be represented by a body that would put their interests first as Scotland would do. I wasn't happy that my 'country' fought an illegal war for oil in Iraq (have they foung the WoMD's yet?) Scotland could decide whether or not to opt in or not instead of having to go with the will of Westminster. There's also the small matter of funding such activities. As for oil, most is in Scottish waters. Even when the oil runs out, we are world leaders in renewables. I really don't see the point in hanging on to an outdated union that quite frankly is holding us as a nation back. Edited October 2, 2011 by GrantB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honved Posted October 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 This is interesting. If Murdo Fraser wins the Scottish Conservative leadership contest, it's game over for Cameron, apparently. Top Scots Tories like Malcolm Rifkind will need to move to England to find a safe seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Interesting. MJ wants complete state control of the economy. I'd be in favour of a system which encouraged a resurgence of our entrepreneurial spirit and re-energized our economy. Your suggestion is that these are equally delivered through independence? No, what I was suggesting was that we would be better placed to decide for ourselves which direction we would like our economy to take by being an independent country. You are in favour of free enterprise, whilst MJ favours more state control; yet neither of you seemed sold on the concept of independence (although MJ has subsequently clarified his position). Currently, neither vision is likely to transpire as virtually all key decisions on the Scottish economy are made in London. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Scruff Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 No, what I was suggesting was that we would be better placed to decide for ourselves which direction we would like our economy to take by being an independent country. You are in favour of free enterprise, whilst MJ favours more state control; yet neither of you seemed sold on the concept of independence (although MJ has subsequently clarified his position). Currently, neither vision is likely to transpire as virtually all key decisions on the Scottish economy are made in London. The pedant in me has to point out that MJ is arguing for state control, not just "more" state control of the economy. Quite a different thing. I don't see how Independence would deliver this unless it came with an in built political programme. But I accept that this is what some do appear to be arguing; that independence will come wrapped up with a particular agenda. Economic decisions are made throughout the UK currently, and we participate through representation. I don't believe that Scottish people are "too small or stupid" to make economic decisions, but I also don't think the UK is either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Jaggy, i take it that you didn't read the SNPs manifesto before the election in May (of course you didn't) for if you had you would have read that the referendum would be held towards the end of the current term. Why would they hold it five months into a five year term,it wouldn't make sense, it gives them plenty of time to prove to the doubters and uk nationalists like yourself that we can run our affairs better, that we can make Scotland stronger and a better place to live for ourselves and our children, we owe it to the future generations of this proud land, our destiny is in our own hands lets not let it slip through our fingers, and consign ourselves to more Westminster rule and mismanagement. Jaggy i was sorry to read that your sister is losing her job in the NHS, but sadly this is the sign of the times we live in these day's, as you rightly said SNP cuts, alas these cuts come as a result of a reduction to the money we get from Westminster known as the Barnett Formula (for the benefit of those who are unaware of this system, it's like when you got your first job after leaving school and came home on the friday with your wage packet, handing it over to your mother she takes out her share for the bills, cooking, washing etc, known in my day as dig money, then she hands you back your allowance/pocket money)so unfortunately cuts have to be made across the board. But in an indepenent Scotland, having full fiscal autonomy not only would she still be in her job, she would be better paid and have better working conditions. And finally before i go can i ask you Jaggy, what has happened to your debating skill's?, when this topic started at the beginning of September you were putting forward intelligent and coherent views, i didn't agree with them but i respected your right to say them, now four weeks later your posts seem to have ran out of steam, they are just a collection of insults, "SNP voters are daft", Slimemand!, that's poor even for you, what next? SNP voters smell of poo. You are almost at the stage of sticking your fingers in your ears and going La La La La. the snp were given the option to cut last years budget or cut double this year, there choice unlike Wales and NI was double. i don't believe we would be better off independent and the pro independence club have done nothing to prove otherwise. contrary to what some say you do have to prove it would work. i would expect to prove to any future employer that i can do the job they are going to pay me to do and so must the pro independence club. ref the Baltic stats they are getting a fair bit of euro Subisdays also only Estonia is keeping its debts down to manageable levels and this may due to a population of only 1.3 million which is going down. yes these country's were doing well before the crash but when that happened it hurt them harder and faster than other countries so why do we want to take the chance, we are stronger in union than apart IMHO, i also as i have said before have more selfish job reasons for not wanting it to happen the "debating skill", well that was really a bit of banter with GrantB and i also find it hard to get across what i really want to on this forum ( thank god for spell check but wheres the grammar check Admin ) that any better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 The pedant in me has to point out that MJ is arguing for state control Stalin like dictatorship, not just "more" state control of the economy. Quite a different thing. I don't see how Independence would deliver this unless it came with an in built political programme. But I accept that this is what some do appear to be arguing; that independence will come wrapped up with a particular agenda. Economic decisions are made throughout the UK currently, and we participate through representation. I don't believe that Scottish people are "too small or stupid" to make economic decisions, but I also don't think the UK is either. fixed that for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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