Blackpool Jags Posted December 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Hmmmm, Mister Scruff, I'm not sure that I've hinted that I believe closed shops should be compulsory; certainly, I believe that if an employer wishes to conduct business with his employees on a closed shop basis, then that surely is his right. When closed shops were outlawed a number of years back, a few notable industries - despite the conflict they'd experienced with some unions then - lamented the new modus operandi. Their rationale was that by dealing with an elected group of conveners, their negotiations were suitably centralised and made their employee relations procedures a whole lot simpler than they would otherwise be. You might well then ask how history would judge that sentiment with the passage of time; probably difficult to say given that so many of the 'monolithic' industries - eg shipbuilding, coal mining, steel production - were soon broken up and, in many cases, completely dismantled. To be perfectly honest, and taking into account the number of mandatory requirements for new employment in this day and age, one more requirement ie that you become a member of a recognised Trade Union, is just one more thing that the employer might expect of his staff. As they say, if you don't like unions and the employer insists on it then look elsewhere for a job. But, surely fair that if the employer wants to run a closed shop, then why shouldn't he/she be allowed to do so? Should the closed shop be made compulsory across the board? Not practical in reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 WJ - Surely you as a law student, despite your political eccentricity, must realise how silly your comment - “If the unions are so upset about free riders, don’t campaign for their work pay and conditions” – is. See the answer above. Nothing silly about it. The law does allow for different individuals to be paid different amounts. The issues raised by the Equalities Act pertains to arbitrary discrimination for pay for the same work under otherwise the same terms of contract. If individuals want to bargain for their own pay conditions, let them. The employer can't be forced to pay them the same simply because a group of other employees have, in their individual group, negotiated a pay-rise. The “battles” that Johnny Freeloader is referring to when being approached to join are disciplinary, sickness absence management and capability cases which he naively believes will never happen to him, and that if they do, he can handle them. Until, that is, the case papers land on his desk!! He hits the panic button, rings us pleading for us to let him join, making out that he always intended to join and that his uncle was a steward with the GMB in the ‘80s. We give him an application form and tell him he’s doing the right thing. He displays a look of genuine relief and asks when we can meet him properly to prepare his case. We dutifully remind that there’s a rule which states that no pre-existing case may be taken on by the branch. His face has now turned a funny purplish red colour as he storms off in a fit of indignation, reminding us what a bunch of cnuts we are and how we can stick our shitey union up our anal cavities. His loss. Leave him to it. He's got enough on his plate without your moral indignation to add to it. Fortunately, for every case of Johnny Freeloader there are dozens of decent employees who want to do the sensible thing and who approach us about joining. They may then go on to participate in our democratic structures, sometimes becoming a workplace rep, Health & Safety rep, Lifelong Learning rep, conference delegate or simply enjoy the peace of mind knowing that their union will be there for them should they need to call upon us. On the other hand there are many "decent employees" who are happy to fight their own battles and those of others without the need to participate in a unionised structure who are acting perfectly properly and perfectly sensibly. The mere fact of a union structure does not give it moral superiority over anyone. That seems to be something you can't accept. Oh and democracy is a travesty of a system. Granted, the least worst save a free market of ideas, but a total travesty nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I have no problem with unions, I view them in a positive light. However, I absolutely detest the fact that as a union member, you are unwittingly funding the Labour party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Heron Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I have no problem with unions, I view them in a positive light. However, I absolutely detest the fact that as a union member, you are unwittingly funding the Labour party. Can you not opt out of the political levy? One of Thatcher's better ideas and don't believe it's ever been repealed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Can you not opt out of the political levy? One of Thatcher's better ideas and don't believe it's ever been repealed I'm not sure. When I joined Amicus (of which I'm still a member but have no idea why!), I wasn't given an option to opt out. I still recieve guff from them about voting in Labour elections that goes straight into the shredder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Heron Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I'm not sure. When I joined Amicus (of which I'm still a member but have no idea why!), I wasn't given an option to opt out. I still recieve guff from them about voting in Labour elections that goes straight into the shredder. I'm not sure if there's much compulsion on unions to publicise this but I'm sure it's still there. Alternatively you could always vote for the biggest prat in any Labour election. Maybe that's how Iain Gray got elected ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonjag Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I'm not sure if there's much compulsion on unions to publicise this but I'm sure it's still there. Alternatively you could always vote for the biggest prat in any Labour election. Maybe that's how Iain Gray got elected ;-) What's Nick Clegg's excuse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I'm not sure if there's much compulsion on unions to publicise this but I'm sure it's still there. Alternatively you could always vote for the biggest prat in any Labour election. Maybe that's how Iain Gray got elected ;-) I couldn't bring myself to do it as you have to tick a wee box that says you are not affiliated to another political party. Otherwise it's not a bad idea. I can't wait to see what embarassing stooge they vote for this time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 [/b] Unlike those hard working public sector workers who went on strike for money. Dress it up any way you like but bottom line was money. Again we see the attitude that has caused Union membership to fall year after year. Maybe if the Unions started being relevent to workers then they would join but if they cant even persuade people to part with a fiver a month for all the great benefits it brings then maybe its time to call it a day. Drink had been taken when I made my last post, hence the "greedy, self-interested people" part. Emotive language, and maybe a wee bit harsh (even if there is an element of truth there). Very few people attend work for the sheer love of it, so of course money is the main motivating factor for most workers. However, those who are prepared to make a short-term sacrifice with the intention of securing longer-term benefits for all will always have my respect. Those 'I'm all right Jack' types lose a bit of it because, like Blackpool Jags says, they are content to reap the benefits earned by those who have been prepared to go on strike. Last week I stood on a picket line with a couple of colleagues who are in their late 50s. They didn't need to be there, their pensions are secured; but they felt a common empathy with folk from my generation whose pensions are anything but secured, whose career opportunities have been severely limited (comparatively) and who are the ones, IMO, who are really going to get shafted by the government's proposals. I have no problem with unions, I view them in a positive light. However, I absolutely detest the fact that as a union member, you are unwittingly funding the Labour party. Not all unions are affiliated to Labour, Grant. Thankfully, the one I am a member of isn't, otherwise I would have a massive crisis of conscience to deal with! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy davie Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Not all unions are affiliated to Labour, Grant. Thankfully, the one I am a member of isn't, otherwise I would have a massive crisis of conscience to deal with! So what party that supports the aspirations of the ordinary working man and woman is your union affiliated to...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Not all unions are affiliated to Labour, Grant. Thankfully, the one I am a member of isn't, otherwise I would have a massive crisis of conscience to deal with! I know. Unfortunately my former employer only recognised Amicus so (for reasons of protecting my job) I joined. Fat lot of goot that did sisnce the place shut and we were all paid off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 So what party that supports the aspirations of the ordinary working man and woman is your union affiliated to...? It isn't affiliated to any political party - which is how it should be, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianlucatoni Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Never mind clarkson - every twat involved with that crappy One show on the BBC (from producers to presenters) should be sacked - a complete joke of a programme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Never mind clarkson - every twat involved with that crappy One show on the BBC (from producers to presenters) should be sacked - a complete joke of a programme I'd keep the Welsh lassie though - she's hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Quinn Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) What a good post. I hadn't reckoned on that, but had I done I would've woken up to the realisation that not doing anything at all about the hellish pension reforms was the obvious way to get the Government to give us what we want. I'm not especially smart, but I'm always open to first class logic like this. Cheers, Mighty. Are yoy serious? Doing nothing WOULD have been a better thing to do. all they did is dig the whole deeper. Everyones suffering, just some of us are man enough to take it. Edited December 10, 2011 by The Mighty Quinn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i@n Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Never mind clarkson - every twat involved with that crappy One show on the BBC (from producers to presenters) should be sacked - a complete joke of a programme What's wrong with the production? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted December 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Are yoy serious? Doing nothing WOULD have been a better thing to do. all they did is dig the whole deeper. Everyones suffering, just some of us are man enough to take it. Stunning. I must man up to inevitable bad times which are completely outwith my control. My family will be impressed with me. Good, well thought through advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKennan Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Elephant in the room: why isn't every employee, private and public sectors, campaigning for better pensions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianlucatoni Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Elephant in the room: why isn't every employee, private and public sectors, campaigning for better pensions? I thought the elephant was buried! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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