One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.

[i@n]

Well it's time for Better together to prove to the 45% why we're better together. Lets give them a year. Tell you what, I'll set up a timetable.

[Guy Incognito]

Well, that's that then. Needless to say I am absolutely gutted by the outcome. I think independence could have been wonderful for our country and I think this is a massive missed opportunity. However, the people have spoken and I accept that.

 

I am immensely proud of the ordinary men and women who volunteered and campaigned for Yes and dared to dream of a better Scotland. I only wish I had done more myself.

 

There were holes in the pro-independence argument that were picked and picked at and, if we are ever in a position to go again, the pro-independence parties have to learn lessons from this campaign.

 

Hopefully the unionist parties stay true to their word in respect of new powers and my fears about Scotland getting bent over by Westminster do not come to fruition.

 

What I think is important now is that both sides of the debate put their differences behind them and move on. Ultimately, we all still need to live together!

[billko]

bill, with respect I suspect that your vote was secured before the questions were debated. Yeah, the establishment that came out the wood-work and the political elite are stuffed full with poppers...

I started work under a Tory governement and still in this job to this day (25+ years) and had changes of government along the way which didn't make that much of a difference to me to be honest.

I have a mortgage with two kids who both went into new schools in the last few years and a job that relies alot on contracts both from England, Europe and beyond that might be in jepardy if we split.

I have never been well off under any government but we have a good life and i won't risk this or my kids future for going into the unknown with a YES campaign who didn't have the answers to reassure me they knew how they would make it all work.

 

Changes have been promised and will make things better than it is but we are in a much better place with the Union (imo) with all that's happening in the world and looking at other countries we are doing pretty good.

 

I was open minded about the YES campaign and was looking to be convinced but some of the reasons i got for YES voters for going it alone were unbelieveable and too many were doing it for all the wrong reasons.

 

I'm not into politics (never voted) and don't have a high opinion of most of them to be honest but some have stood out for me and i have a new found respect for these folk.

 

With all due respect please don't pre judge me on how i was going to vote macaroon as it was the failure to be convinced by the YES campaign that was the clincher for me.

[macaroon]

billi. I don't want to personalise this however you seem to be saying that because someone/their immediate family is not directly affected by government policy - on say the bedroom tax or disability allowance - then it is not their concern. I don't see that it follows that the contracts with other countries would have dried up following independence. To admit to never having voted is quite an admission. I was under the impression that the glorious campaigns were fought to defend democracy and the right to vote. The No side did have some valid points but it was too focussed on negativity, when that didn't work it called in it's powerful friends in the establishment to bully and threaten the population, sickening

[macaroon]

ps the changes don't add up to much and it's already starting to degenerate into bickering between the parties. Nice timetable though.

[P-R]

So disappointed by the outcome but if that's what people want so be it. Now it turns out Salmond has just resigned.

[kni]

So disappointed by the outcome but if that's what people want so be it. Now it turns out Salmond has just resigned.

 

A bizarre decision by Salmons given that the First Minister will lead the negotiations with Whitehall on extra powers. Is he running scared of Labour after large No votes in a large number of SNP constituencies in Holyrood? I would not trust Sturgeon or Swinney to deliver a good deal.

[P-R]

A bizarre decision by Salmons given that the First Minister will lead the negotiations with Whitehall on extra powers. Is he running scared of Labour after large No votes in a large number of SNP constituencies in Holyrood? I would not trust Sturgeon or Swinney to deliver a good deal.

 

Well who knows but he looks like he's stolen the show! I doubt Sturgeon or Swinney would have much of a say on what other devolved powers (if any) we would get anyway. The parties at Westminster will determine that.

Edited September 19, 2014 by P-R

[kni]

 

So Labour, who delivered devolution for Scotland, will not give the English the same powers. Miliband must believe that he can't win an overall majority in England. He thinks that will need the votes of Labour MPs in Scotland and Wales to impose laws on England.

 

You can't blame Cameron for Miliband's undemocratic self-interest. Labour MPs in England (especially those in marginal seats), faced with the wrath of their voters who will demand devolution or an English Parliament, could force him out.

 

Salmond has gone already (Sturgeon's knife?) so who's next?

[kni]

 

Do you honestly believe Salmond who has suffered a massive defeat, even in the SNP's heartlands? Salmond lied about iScotland automatically becoming an EU member on independence day and other important issues, especially Sterling. His personal credibility and reputation, especially in Brussels, is in tatters. Did Sturgeon knife him and force the resignation? ETA - the truth will come out eventually but don't under-estimate the power of the Eurocrats who bear grudges against those that cross them.

Edited September 19, 2014 by kni

[kni]

If you want to talk about lying, not even 24 hours and gone and two promises broken already. Better Together though.

 

^ That timetable is deliverable if Miliband and Clegg honour the deal and whip their MPs to support it. It's Miliband who is taking about a delay until after the General Election.

 

Given what's going to be coming our way over the next few years, with Miliband backtracking after less than 12 hours, and Farage and Boris coming over the hill, I'll be blaming all of the No voters.

 

Boris and Farage are not in the Commons and are irrelevant if the parties honour that pledge.

Edited September 19, 2014 by kni

[kni]

The timetable was never going to be deliverable, but plenty of people fell for it.

 

Only time will tell but Miliband, who is panicking, is the main obstacle. In theory, the timetable is ambitious but achievable provided that there is the will on both sides to negotiate realistically and quickly.

 

Btw, Boris can only become Leader after the election and only if Cameron resigns or is ousted by a vote of no confidence. Conservative MPs decide the two finalists who are put before a ballot of the members. There is no guarantee that Boris, who has a lot of enemies on the backbenches, will make the final.

Edited September 19, 2014 by kni

[Blackpool Jags]

Whether Bojo or Farage are in the Commons or not, there appears to be a head of steam already gathering amongst the Tory right wing who are outraged at the thought of the govt. delivering on the 3 leaders' pledge to the Scottish people.

 

The next parliament is likely to see a rise in the number of little Englanders and maybe even UKIP MPs, inc Farage himself. There is an alarming pro-UKIP mentality developing amongst even the Northern English working class that sees the eradication of militant Islam and exit from the EU as Britain's foremost priorities. The economy and the NHS are way down the list of too many people's concerns at the moment. To what extent the new Parliament will reflect this shift in thinking remains to be seen, but I think the Scotland issue, for them, is an irrelevance. Therefore, every chance it'll be sneered at if not delivered sooner rather than later.

 

The outlook is ominous. Unless Cameron can wield the big stick to his right wing elements, despite the looming presence of the buffoon Johnson in his face, then the Scotland promise could already be in tatters.

[Jaggernaut]

The timetable was never going to be deliverable, but plenty of people fell for it.

 

Exactly. It was probably the biggest lie of the final days of the campaing. But people fell for it, but "yes" voters like kni refuse to ackowledge that it was a lie, while scrambling around shouting "lie! lie!" to just about anything that the "no" camapaign said.

[Jaggernaut]

Only time will tell but Miliband, who is panicking, is the main obstacle. In theory, the timetable is ambitious but achievable provided that there is the will on both sides to negotiate realistically and quickly.

 

Btw, Boris can only become Leader after the election and only if Cameron resigns or is ousted by a vote of no confidence. Conservative MPs decide the two finalists who are put before a ballot of the members. There is no guarantee that Boris, who has a lot of enemies on the backbenches, will make the final.

 

What will your position be if no extra MEANINGFUL powers are delivered?

[Norgethistle]

There's nothing like being gracious in defeat, in the last 48 hours I've heard the following

• Over 50's shouldn't have had the vote as they won't be alive long enough
  
• The vote was rigged (From Jim Sillars)
  
• The people of Scotland who voted no should be ashamed of themselves
  
• A call to arms to boycott 23 companies (who employ thousands of Scots) because they never shared the views of the YES campaign (Also from Jim Sillars)
  
• Classing all NO voters as BNP/UKIP/Nazis after the kick up in George square by a group of neds missing their OF games
  
• Blaming the NO vote on areas with high English / Immigrants staying in them
  
• Salmond stating the voters were "tricked" yet the plan is still going ahead with the 1st meeting at checkers on Monday
  
• Folk furious because England and Wales also want devolved powers
  

The ethos from the YES campaign for creating a fairer more tolerant society has been blown out the water, by the reaction to the MAJORITY of the electorate, this isn't tolerate of differing views, this is how the brown shirts behaved. This needs to calm down before we head in a very dangerous direction

 

To parade under a ONESCOTLAND banner is laughable as it now appears the plan is to split Scotland in two

Edited September 21, 2014 by Norgethistle

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

What will your position be if no extra MEANINGFUL powers are delivered?

 

Relief.

 

Scottish devolution was intended, by the politicians who proposed and designed its' current form, to "kill nationalism stone dead", in the words of the then Scottish secretary George Robertson. In that respect it has been an undeniable failure.

 

Further devolved powers from and to flawed institutions is another mis-judgement, proposed in fear and desperation, as to what this country requires to stop internal bickering and concentrate on delivering governance sympathetic to specific needs and democratic will that might help the people freely flourish and unite when neccessary.

 

ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz - Self proposed leader of the Maryhill Independence Party - Glasgow's Underground Resistance!!!

Edited September 21, 2014 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz

[i@n]

T this isn't tolerate of differing views, this is how the brown shirts behaved. This needs to calm down before we head in a very dangerous direction

 

 

Are you for real?

[Norgethistle]

Are you for real?

 

This is exactly how it started 80 years ago, by singling out businesses and sections of the population that never agreed with their agenda, the your either with us or against us, this is what is becoming apparent as the new tactic from various #45 sites out there on social media, there is a dangerous undertone coming out since Friday and it needs to end.

 

Ask yourself if it had been a 55 to 45 for YES and the better together campaign was blaming certain sectors of the population on age or nationality, proposing boycotts of several companies employing Scottish people and claiming the vote was rigged, what tactics would you state they were taking??

[kni]

Whether Bojo or Farage are in the Commons or not, there appears to be a head of steam already gathering amongst the Tory right wing who are outraged at the thought of the govt. delivering on the 3 leaders' pledge to the Scottish people. The next parliament is likely to see a rise in the number of little Englanders and maybe even UKIP MPs, inc Farage himself. There is an alarming pro-UKIP mentality developing amongst even the Northern English working class that sees the eradication of militant Islam and exit from the EU as Britain's foremost priorities. The economy and the NHS are way down the list of too many people's concerns at the moment. To what extent the new Parliament will reflect this shift in thinking remains to be seen, but I think the Scotland issue, for them, is an irrelevance. Therefore, every chance it'll be sneered at if not delivered sooner rather than later. The outlook is ominous. Unless Cameron can wield the big stick to his right wing elements, despite the looming presence of the buffoon Johnson in his face, then the Scotland promise could already be in tatters.

 

UKIP is not only an English party. A UKIP MEP in Scotland was elected in May with over 10% of the vote, despite only a minimal campaign. The figures suggest that most of its votes came from the Lib Dems as the Conservative vote increased. Wales also elected a UKIP MEP - second with 27.5% of the vote with Labour only 0.5% ahead. The figures show that it took votes from all the main parties except Labour. The biggest UKIP votes were in the Midlands and South of England rather than the North. I am not a fan of UKIP or Farage but it would be a huge dismiss it as a bunch of Little Englanders after such a performance.

 

Labour's policy in the 1980s, when led by Michael Foot, was to withdraw from the EEC. Neil Kinnock was in favour of withdrawal when he was elected Leader but sold out for the huge salary and benefits of an EU Commissioner. Tony Benn remained an advocate of EU withdrawal until his death. There have been several minor left-wing parties that advocated leaving the EU, notably Bob Crow's NO2EU. Were they all little Englanders too.

 

Tbh, you sound like one of those condescending Guardian journalists, often educated (like George Monbiot) at public schools and Oxbridge. They despise the English working class (which exists in the Midlands and South too) and their patriotism. They don't want MPs from Scotland (mainly Labour and Lib Dems) voting to decide on English matters which are devolved in Scotland. Don't they deserve self-determination too or should they simply accept Miliband's and Clegg's selfish sell-out?

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

Are you for real?

 

Very.

 

Norge went on to say "To parade under a ONESCOTLAND banner is laughable as it now appears the plan is to split Scotland in two."

 

I say not "laughable" but ominously sinister and regretable. The "plan" has succeeded in spliting Scotland into two distinct opposites when clearly there are many more divisions of opinion. Where previously there was scepticism, doubt, tolerance and passive open minded debate there is now pressured choice, hurried commitment, assumed consensus and ill thought diktat.

 

The pre and post referendum political points scoring is an affront to the people. I'd hoped the result might indicate to those in positions of influence that it's time for politicians of all allegiances to shed the egos and agendas that have served themselves so well at the expense of the people they ought to serving.

Edited September 21, 2014 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz

[P-R]

There's nothing like being gracious in defeat, in the last 48 hours I've heard the following

• Over 50's shouldn't have had the vote as they won't be alive long enough
  
• The vote was rigged (From Jim Sillars)
  
• The people of Scotland who voted no should be ashamed of themselves
  
• A call to arms to boycott 23 companies (who employ thousands of Scots) because they never shared the views of the YES campaign (Also from Jim Sillars)
  
• Classing all NO voters as BNP/UKIP/Nazis after the kick up in George square by a group of neds missing their OF games
  
• Blaming the NO vote on areas with high English / Immigrants staying in them
  
• Salmond stating the voters were "tricked" yet the plan is still going ahead with the 1st meeting at checkers on Monday
  
• Folk furious because England and Wales also want devolved powers
  

The ethos from the YES campaign for creating a fairer more tolerant society has been blown out the water, by the reaction to the MAJORITY of the electorate, this isn't tolerate of differing views, this is how the brown shirts behaved. This needs to calm down before we head in a very dangerous direction

 

To parade under a ONESCOTLAND banner is laughable as it now appears the plan is to split Scotland in two

I think this is an extremely unfair branding of the Yes campaign. There are some right bampots in amongst both groups and I've not been been on some of Jim Sillar's comments but most of the nonsense comes out in places like Twitter from keyboard warriors who I'd be surprised if they followed through with any of their actions.

[Norgethistle]

I think this is an extremely unfair branding of the Yes campaign. There are some right bampots in amongst both groups and I've not been been on some of Jim Sillar's comments but most of the nonsense comes out in places like Twitter from keyboard warriors who I'd be surprised if they followed through with any of their actions.

 

The same could be said about branding Friday nights shenanigans as the standard face of a NO voter, which a lot of the YES campaign are trying to do

[Blackpool Jags]

 

 

UKIP is not only an English party. A UKIP MEP in Scotland was elected in May with over 10% of the vote, despite only a minimal campaign. The figures suggest that most of its votes came from the Lib Dems as the Conservative vote increased. Wales also elected a UKIP MEP - second with 27.5% of the vote with Labour only 0.5% ahead. The figures show that it took votes from all the main parties except Labour. The biggest UKIP votes were in the Midlands and South of England rather than the North. I am not a fan of UKIP or Farage but it would be a huge dismiss it as a bunch of Little Englanders after such a performance.

 

Labour's policy in the 1980s, when led by Michael Foot, was to withdraw from the EEC. Neil Kinnock was in favour of withdrawal when he was elected Leader but sold out for the huge salary and benefits of an EU Commissioner. Tony Benn remained an advocate of EU withdrawal until his death. There have been several minor left-wing parties that advocated leaving the EU, notably Bob Crow's NO2EU. Were they all little Englanders too.

 

Tbh, you sound like one of those condescending Guardian journalists, often educated (like George Monbiot) at public schools and Oxbridge. They despise the English working class (which exists in the Midlands and South too) and their patriotism. They don't want MPs from Scotland (mainly Labour and Lib Dems) voting to decide on English matters which are devolved in Scotland. Don't they deserve self-determination too or should they simply accept Miliband's and Clegg's selfish sell-out?

 

Firstly, not meant to sound at all condescending, but I can't stop you think that nor will I try to. I was educated at Dunard St & Shakespeare St Primaries and NK secondary. Other than some college appearances in Glasgow and Blackpool, that's about it.

 

My point about UKIP, which I assume you chose not to take, was that, with some geographical exceptions, they are a very right wing Anglo-centric party who appeal to the far right of the Tory party and an increasingly worrying swathe of ordinary working class people. They offer the man in the street nothing of substance but a xenophobic outlook AND have seemingly persuaded Joe Bloggs of Milltownshire that he has only 2 enemies in the world: foreigners (mainly Muslims) and EU bureaucrats. The big problem is that either UKIP or UKIP minded Tories will have a significant presence in the next Westminster intake. My core point was that we CAN'T ignore that.

 

Back to the issue of post-referendum Scotland: working on what I believe to be a fair assumption, ie, that around 10% of wavering voters are likely to have been wooed by the big three's promises of devo max, it would only take a reneging by Cameron - or whoever is at the helm, confronted by the promises conundrum - to push those voters over to Yes thinking. Add to that the SNP announcement that they have had around 5,000 or so new members join since Friday, then you can visualise a demand for a fresh referendum in less than a lifetime; or less than a generation for that matter. A more right wing, UKIP minded Westminster next year is not exactly likely to dampen enthusiasm for change in Scotland.

[kni]

^ Fair points but there are anti-EU MPs on the Labour benches too, Austin Mitchell being one of the most prominent. There were lots more before the Blairites hijacked the party.

 

It would be criminal to ignore what has happened in Rotherham and other towns where Muslims have sexually abused young white girls. Similar problems exist in the West Midlands and West Yorkshire as well has the Lancashire mill towns. Those that have tried to confront them have been labelled racist and thousands of children have suffered appallingly as a result. Then there is the widespread (and tribally organised) voting fraud in those towns and cities too.

 

It's highly unlikely that UKIP will win more than a handful seats at the next election. That figure will increase, however, if the political class in Westminster, including the media, does not address the West Lothian question properly over the next few months. The political class has tried suppress England's national identity (using the racist card) whilst embracing and encouraging the national identities of us Scots, the Welsh and the southern Irish. Their bluff, rightly, has been called and MPs in Scotland must be stopped from voting on English laws.

 

I have always thought that another referendum on independence will be called within 5 to 10 years. The Irish and Dutch were told to vote again by the EU until they delivered the required answer. The SNP will be no different whilst they are in power in Holyrood.