allyo Posted October 26, 2017 Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 Sorry Chuckey (not sure how you'd pronounce that), but nothing is going to bring your club back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotterJag Posted October 29, 2017 Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 ● Steven McLean looks on admiringly as Dougie Imrie pulls off a fantastic save. I remember a couple of years back being so disgusted at our lack of penalties, that I tried to find out how many each team had had in previous years.Couldn't find too much but did find a piece from the early 00's, written by a Celtic fan. It was at a time when Celtic were feeling persecuted by all and sundry and said fella was trying to prove how many penalties Rangers, as they were known back then, had been 'given'. His findings were quite surprising but he still delivered them. I can't remember exact pens or all teams but it went something like this: Between 1901 and 2001 the following teams had these totals; Celtic - 1120 Rangers - 997 An incredible amount per season on average. Anyone like to guess who came next and roughly how many pens they got? I can only remember the next team and roughly how many. I'll post the number later anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted October 29, 2017 Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 East Fife with 173 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted October 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 Talking about East Fife, I have to confess that I had a colleague George Anderson, who played in the Scottish Cup winning team of 1938/9. He was a lovely man, very modest and had to be coaxed to recount his experiences. I should also add that I played cricket for Irvine with his two sons, so I'm not quite as old and decrepit as you might imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jukebox Rebel Posted October 29, 2017 Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 ^ Those are huge pen totals for the OF, especially given it's just a 100 year window analysed. We have 670 known penalties in 5,554 competitive games. I'd imagine Hearts would be up around the 750 mark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted October 29, 2017 Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 To be fair I'm sure the old firm scored far more goals than everyone else too, given that they were the two most successful teams in that period. They were attacking more, they're bound to win more penalties. I think to read anything into it youd have to see if their penalty ratio was in line with their goal ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted October 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 Since the OF have dominated Scottish football in terms of results, they must also have been in opponents' penalty area for longer than their opponents were in theirs. Consequently it is inevitable that they will have been awarded more penalties than any other teams. The critical question is, is their share of total penalties awarded greater than their share of oponents' penalty area occupancy by all teams? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted October 29, 2017 Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 Great minds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotterJag Posted October 29, 2017 Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 ^ Those are huge pen totals for the OF, especially given it's just a 100 year window analysed. We have 670 known penalties in 5,554 competitive games. I'd imagine Hearts would be up around the 750 mark? I definitely had to renew my confabulation licence before throwing stats on a quote linked to you TJR, so figures are approx. and from memory.Oddly enough, I don't recall seeing thistle in the list but the next team up was Hibernian with something like 377 pens in 100 years. I'll maybe try and find the details again one day but it seemed that most teams were between 200 and 300 pens barring the OF of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotterJag Posted October 29, 2017 Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 ^ agree that they should have more as they will almost certainly have been attacking more. Not sure if averaging 7 or 8 more per season is representative of this or not. I can think of one or two that were a bit soft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jukebox Rebel Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Just 200 or 300 pens over 100 years for non OF teams? Nah. CJ, sorry to say that report seems like bunkum. It takes years of real dedication to source these figures; your Celtic researcher was taking on a task that was way beyond casual enquiry, although, it has to be said, he did well to come up with so many for the gruesome twosome. Davy Allan (Hearts historian) tells that they've SCORED 733 competitive pens, so they must have been awarded around 900. We know Thistle have several hundred. Beyond the OF, most of the auld brigade of clubs will not deviate too much from around 600 to 900. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaila Street Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Oddly enough, I don't recall seeing thistle in the list but the next team up was Hibernian with something like 377 pens in 100 years. I'll maybe try and find the details again one day but it seemed that most teams were between 200 and 300 pens barring the OF of course. Nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotterJag Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Just 200 or 300 pens over 100 years for non OF teams? Nah. CJ, sorry to say that report seems like bunkum. It takes years of real dedication to source these figures; your Celtic researcher was taking on a task that was way beyond casual enquiry, although, it has to be said, he did well to come up with so many for the gruesome twosome. Davy Allan (Hearts historian) tells that they've SCORED 733 competitive pens, so they must have been awarded around 900. We know Thistle have several hundred. Beyond the OF, most of the auld brigade of clubs will not deviate too much from around 600 to 900. Was looking and found this. Seems the stats are completely reversed from when I first looked a couple of years ago. As much as I'd love to know these details, it seems a quick google search should not be believed. All scottish tournaments since 1890/1891 untill 2001/2002 Red cards..Rangers=575,,,,,Celtic=622 Yellow cards..Rangers=1522,,,,Celtic=1777 Penalty's for..Rangers=1027,,,,Celtic=896 Penalty's against..Rangers=328,,,,Celtic=459 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotterJag Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Nonsense. Most probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Hamilton have more points than us right now. That's nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaila Street Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Hamilton have more points than us right now. That's nonsense. How many penalties have they had? Asking for a friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stevenson Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Hamilton have more points than us right now. That's nonsense. They have the advantage of having played Dundee twice (and gaining 6 PTS from them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jukebox Rebel Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Was looking and found this. Seems the stats are completely reversed from when I first looked a couple of years ago. As much as I'd love to know these details, it seems a quick google search should not be believed. All scottish tournaments since 1890/1891 untill 2001/2002 Red cards..Rangers=575,,,,,Celtic=622 Yellow cards..Rangers=1522,,,,Celtic=1777 Penalty's for..Rangers=1027,,,,Celtic=896 Penalty's against..Rangers=328,,,,Celtic=459 Those red card figures are wildly inaccurate. The cheeks will be around the 150 mark at the beginning of the 2000s. I'll take a random guess that the "researcher" has taken a sample period and multiplied it. Back in Victorian times and well into the 20th century, sending offs were fewer and further between, and normally reserved for only the most violent of cases. As the laws became more complex, the range of punishable offences increased and with it, the number of sending offs, now a much more common occurence. Having studied countless thousands of match reports covering virtually every competitive fixture, AFK (a fellow researcher) and I have a running total of 214 for Thistle in competitive action. Our aforementioned Jambo contemporary has 259, and around 100 of those are from beyond the 2001-02 season. Your source should be dismissed as a pure fabrication; as you said yourself, "a quick google search should not be believed". Indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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