Scottlish Elections

[twinny]

Nothing (in theory) to stop the SNP going down the route of UDI but in practice they won't do that and they would have had to rely on a lot of other countries recognising Scotland as a sovereign state. If there is a referendum and Scotland votes yes, it would be a complete and utter gift by Westminster if they dug their heels in and refused to recognise the will of the Scottish people. The SNP vote would rocket and the powers that be down at Westminster would be portrayed in a very poor light.

 

That's the thing. The SNP have worked hard to define themselves as a social-democratic party with the objective of moving to independence gradually and by the looks of it through the channels laid out above, rather than a de facto attempt at independence. I agree though, if Scotland voted yes in a referendum, Westminster would have trouble on its hands blocking it, and it could (hopefully not) lead to Sìol nan Gàidheal type groups forming.

[andyconnor]

av and pr are just tactical voting on a mass scale and are just a excuse for small irelevant parties to stick there nose in just look at the lib dum and snp.

 

do you still think the SNP are a small irrelevant party?

[jaggybunnet]

do you still think the SNP are a small irrelevant party?

 

 

yes, they have just picked up on the backlash on labour and libs and will make a hash of this

[B.C.G. JAG]

yes, they have just picked up on the backlash on labour and libs and will make a hash of this

I suspect quite a lot of people voted for them because they haven't made a hash of it. I imagine most of those people also have a fairly good memory of the destruction caused by the Tories last time they were in power.

[honved]

yes, they have just picked up on the backlash on labour and libs and will make a hash of this

 

Hey Nostradamus! I'll remind you of that sometime soon, when President Salmond is busy forcibly expelling all non Scots. If you think Libya and Iraq were bad, just wait till Kenny MacAskill gets going on the Areas Act 2017. You'll be sent to the "buffer zone" in Dumfries or to the Liberal North Archipeligo.

[Jaggernaut]

yes, they have just picked up on the backlash on labour and libs and will make a hash of this

That strikes me as exactly the kind attitude that all the unionist parties took right before the election.

 

It makes me think of George Robertson's howler that they showed on tv this morning, where he said that "Devolution will kill nationalism stone dead".

 

I'd love to see how he'd respond to that.

[jaggybunnet]

Hey Nostradamus! I'll remind you of that sometime soon, when President Salmond is busy forcibly expelling all non Scots. If you think Libya and Iraq were bad, just wait till Kenny MacAskill gets going on the Areas Act 2017. You'll be sent to the "buffer zone" in Dumfries or to the Liberal North Archipeligo.

 

 

[jaggybunnet]

I suspect quite a lot of people voted for them because they haven't made a hash of it. I imagine most of those people also have a fairly good memory of the destruction caused by the Tories UNIONS last time they were in power.

 

 

sorted that for you

[B.C.G. JAG]

When were the unions in power again?

[Woodstock Jag]

When were the unions in power again?

 

Every Labour Government save (perhaps) the first two Blair ones

[jaggybunnet]

Every Labour Government save (perhaps) the first two Blair ones

 

 

pretty much and did more damage to this country due to petty minded power struggles than ANY party has done before and since.

[Blackpool Jags]

pretty much and did more damage to this country due to petty minded power struggles than ANY party has done before and since.

 

Good post.

[twinny]

pretty much and did more damage to this country due to petty minded power struggles than ANY party has done before and since.

 

[honved]

i didnt vote, was showing my apathy for a parliament that has no power. the only reason we have a parliament is because a few red necks watched braveheart and thought FREEDOM! wid be good, we take more out the union than we put in. we've got a good deal here. robbin england. lets not pretend either. the snp are racists. anti english racists. if it was any other race of people you wid be disgusted (jews blacks etc) . people accept anti english racism as if its that

 

Never knew that Iain Gray was a Jags fan. Welcome aboard big man.

[B.C.G. JAG]

i didnt vote, was showing my apathy for a parliament that has no power. the only reason we have a parliament is because a few red necks watched braveheart and thought FREEDOM! wid be good, we take more out the union than we put in. we've got a good deal here. robbin england. lets not pretend either. the snp are racists. anti english racists. if it was any other race of people you wid be disgusted (jews blacks etc) . people accept anti english racism as if its that

 

Yeah, I mean what power does the parliament have? Education? Health? Agriculture? Justice?

If you think these things aren't important then frankly, you don't deserve a vote. So I'm pleased you wasted yours anyway.

[alx]

We should have an independence thread now and shoot the Unionist fox. Does Scottish Labour (sic) support the Union or the 'Social Justice' theory that they claim to support? Labour voters need to decide what they really believe in. Union or defence of the working classes against Tory oppression.

[B.C.G. JAG]

Out of interest, how do you define "working classes" nowadays?

 

I will await your thread about Independence with interest. One in three people in Glasgow are incapable, or of limited capability for work, and are currently being paid DWP (Whitehall) income. How will the SNP make the problem of mass disability (mainly through the chronic alcohol and drug dependence afflicting Scotland) disappear overnight to enable this new economy we are supposed to be so capable of?

 

I don't think anyone can claim they will make it disappear overnight, and the cultural shifts we need to make will likely take generations. However, Labour showed themselves to be completely obstructionist on this exact point. The SNP proposed a two fold strategy to begin tackling our drink problem but Labour voted it down on the basis that it wasn't a 'silver bullet'. Well what policy ever is? Rather than propose anything constructive or positive, Labour acted oppositional for the sake of opposition on this issue, and they were caught out by it. As I've said before, I'm not naturally inclined towards the SNP, but Labour's campaign was typified by the sort of negative answer you've provided. Silver bullets don't exist, but coherent overlapping strategies on multiple fronts can change cultures, albeit slowly. Labour simply lost interest in finding solutions and preferred to snipe from the sidelines. The sidelines is where they will remain if they continue to offer no hope for the future.

[Woodstock Jag]

Yeah, I mean what power does the parliament have? Education? Health? Agriculture? Justice?

If you think these things aren't important then frankly, you don't deserve a vote. So I'm pleased you wasted yours anyway.

 

Until it has proper tax raising powers, in fairness, they really don't have proper power in those areas, at least for as long as they wish the state to be funder and provider. You can blame the way the Barnett formula works for that.

[B.C.G. JAG]

Until it has proper tax raising powers, in fairness, they really don't have proper power in those areas, at least for as long as they wish the state to be funder and provider. You can blame the way the Barnett formula works for that.

Whilst I concede your point, the very fact that we have a Government which is (at least going to attempt) to provide free education as opposed to the new English model, and a National Health Service as opposed to the new fractured, semi privatised Health Service proposed down south is at least evidence that devolved responsibilities, even without tax raising powers, can lead to what is fast becoming a very different culture. Whether or not that's for the better or worse is not my point, but rather that TM had perhaps misjudged the situation when they suggested that there was no point voting because the Parly has no powers. In my own opinion, protecting ourselves from the worst of Conservative brutality makes voting in Scottish Parliament elections of huge importance, but I imagine you might disagree there.

[Blackpool Jags]

Whilst I concede your point, the very fact that we have a Government which is (at least going to attempt) to provide free education as opposed to the new English model, and a National Health Service as opposed to the new fractured, semi privatised Health Service proposed down south is at least evidence that devolved responsibilities, even without tax raising powers, can lead to what is fast becoming a very different culture. Whether or not that's for the better or worse is not my point, but rather that TM had perhaps misjudged the situation when they suggested that there was no point voting because the Parly has no powers. In my own opinion, protecting ourselves from the worst of Conservative brutality makes voting in Scottish Parliament elections of huge importance, but I imagine you might disagree there.

 

I agree with pretty much all of that. Selfishly, I kinda fear Scottish independence as it would result in eternal Tory/ConDem governments down South. Not Scotland's problem, I know.

 

Due to tactical media propaganda, mainly via the dumbed down papers read by Joe Bloggs here, there's a growing view that goes something like: "Why should Scotland get the best deals on prescriptions, free transport for pensioners, dental and general healthcare etc.?" I'm always on at these sorts to campaign to get parity up the way, not some sort of lunatic race to the bottom.

 

There is no doubt, unfortunately, that the prevalent Tory mentality of England just doesn't get it and that there are some good battles to be won for the benefit of all in respect of advances in wealth distribution, social justice etc.

 

If Scottish independence does come about - as seems eminently possible within the next few years - I'll need to start making plans to have the family uprooted and repatriated back up the road. Hmmmm.

[andyconnor]

i didnt vote, was showing my apathy for a parliament that has no power. the only reason we have a parliament is because a few red necks watched braveheart and thought FREEDOM! wid be good, we take more out the union than we put in. we've got a good deal here. robbin england. lets not pretend either. the snp are racists. anti english racists. if it was any other race of people you wid be disgusted (jews blacks etc) . people accept anti english racism as if its that

 

are you ronnie?

[Woodstock Jag]

Due to tactical media propaganda, mainly via the dumbed down papers read by Joe Bloggs here, there's a growing view that goes something like: "Why should Scotland get the best deals on prescriptions, free transport for pensioners, dental and general healthcare etc.?"

 

It's a huge straw man though: in England there's more extensive cancer screening and more money put into after-care. It comes down to what services have been prioritised by the relevant departments and subsidiaries.

[Blackpool Jags]

It's a huge straw man though: in England there's more extensive cancer screening and more money put into after-care. It comes down to what services have been prioritised by the relevant departments and subsidiaries.

 

Problem is that, if the H&SC bill gets its breath back (hopefully deid), that type of service will be available increasingly through insurance or some other pay & go mechanism.

 

Healthcare is just one example of better universal access to an equitable life; education and a general lack of privatisation of public services, for instance, illustrate a more progressive ethos held by Scotland and its political representatives (mainly SNP) by comparison with Tory Southern England - where the the real power lies, and where decisions are made.

 

There's an old adage which asserts that the level of civilisation of a particular country can be ascertained by measuring how it looks after its young, elderly and needy. In that respect, Scotland out'civilises' England by a distance in my opinion.

[Blackpool Jags]

It's a huge straw man though: in England there's more extensive cancer screening and more money put into after-care. It comes down to what services have been prioritised by the relevant departments and subsidiaries.

 

I got chatting with one of the Registrars from our oncology department an hour so ago, after a meeting, and he was at pains to tell me that it's no more than a Torygraph-led myth that cancer screening is any more extensive down here than it is in Scotland; similarly with after care. He'd worked at hospitals in Edinburgh and Glasgow in the last three years and seemed to know what he was talking about.

[The Devil's Point]

I don't think anyone can claim they will make it disappear overnight, and the cultural shifts we need to make will likely take generations. However, Labour showed themselves to be completely obstructionist on this exact point. The SNP proposed a two fold strategy to begin tackling our drink problem but Labour voted it down on the basis that it wasn't a 'silver bullet'. Well what policy ever is? Rather than propose anything constructive or positive, Labour acted oppositional for the sake of opposition on this issue, and they were caught out by it. As I've said before, I'm not naturally inclined towards the SNP, but Labour's campaign was typified by the sort of negative answer you've provided. Silver bullets don't exist, but coherent overlapping strategies on multiple fronts can change cultures, albeit slowly. Labour simply lost interest in finding solutions and preferred to snipe from the sidelines. The sidelines is where they will remain if they continue to offer no hope for the future.

 

Think that's a pretty reasonable answer which I'd largely agree with. Thought one of the poorest things the Lib Dems (I'm not a Labour supporter) did in the last Parliament was to wimp out on supporting the minimum pricing bill. It just looked completely out of touch with reality. Whatever the statistics say, it seems pretty obvious to me that the level of alcohol and drug addiction in Scotland (among many other things eg levels of illiteracy and the lack of skills for a modern service economy) has to be addressed before we can ever really function as a viable economy.

 

To be fair, the SNP did actually try to do something on alcohol and the other parties just buried their heads in the sand. I don't understand why so many people seem concerned about having to pay a bit more to enjoy a bottle of wine, given the amount of damage alcohol does on so many levels in Scotland. Sure I read a survey last week that found 5000 Scots presented at their GP in ONE day last month with alcohol related health problems. Thats one out of a thousand in the population going to the GP with drink related problems in ONE single day.

 

We are told that the current problem of alcohol and drug addiction requires money thrown at it through out of work benefits and Disability Living Allowance. These bills would presumably become an Independent Scotland's problem rather than the DWP's so I would be genuinely interested to know where this money would be found from, particularly since these problems will not disappear any time soon.

 

Like many people, I do not have a closed mind to Independence but I will take a lot of persuasion that it would be economically viable any time soon. Wasn't long ago the SNP were talking about the "arc of prosperity". Unfortunately this actually turned out to be an arc of insolvency, but that all seems to have been conveniently forgotten. I thought we were supposed to be so proud of our Scottish banks as well