ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) Because the JH isn't a problem right now when compared to a grassy hill or an out-of-date, expensive-to-steward main stand. That's a matter of opinion. People are constanly complaining about the JHS. Too big - no atmosphere, facilities deteriorating - seats/toilets, poor catering, the battle for the north end between the family section/shed boys... The shed is an eyesore. but must be the cheapest part of the ground to maintain at the moment. You're a steward, right? On what basis do they allocate stewards to the various sections of the ground... Main stand? JHS? North stand? edit : The Bing ... oops! Edited December 8, 2011 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Pie in the sky, I'm afraid. How exactly do you reduce the JH stand (which is actually one of the most impressive stands in any ground in Scotland)? Presumably you mean lop off the top half? Imagine the engineering and construction work that would involve, including lowering the ground outside, so that everything could be knocked down and re-built, including the road outside. The amount of land freed up by doing that would be tiny, and useless for developers. The cost of the whole thing would probably be more than building an entire stadium somewhere else. Impressive I could agree but at least twice as big as we need. I can imagine a redevlopement which would give roughly the same square footage footprint as the old stand. I doubt the work involved would be as costly as you estimate. I say that with deference to your opinion if you are an architect or surveyor or builder but without seriously looking at this possibilty one will never make a truely acurate judgement. I think the club needs to be making accurate judgements right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mediocre Pundit Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 That's a matter of opinion. People are constanly complaining about the JHS. Too big - no atmosphere, facilities deteriorating - seats/toilets, poor catering, the battle for the north end between the family section/shed boys... The shed is an eyesore. but must be the cheapest part of the ground to maintain at the moment. You're a steward, right? On what basis do they allocate stewards to the various sections of the ground... Main stand? JHS? North stand? edit : The Bing ... oops! Don't know why you think I'm a steward but you've got me mistaken. I personally think the JH is alright. Too big, yes, but acceptable. I don't think the bing is acceptable and I would love to see the Main Stand redeveloped to be for hospitality and the family zone. Then we could even use the current hospitality area as a supporters bar again, with cheap hospitality tickets (like the curry night for Morton) every matchday to give fans another option of how to take in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicofan Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Doubting whether it's "worth it" is part in parcel of being a Jag. It's got eff all to do with the ground. I don't recall too many Jags fans gleefully striding up Firhill road on a wet and windy night to watch Brechin or Forfar or East Fife or Albion Rovers or other no away fans teams even when the shed was still there. The stadium is gettin it just now but if we were top of the league we wouldn't give a f*** if we had to watch the games with a Lidl's polly bag to keep the rain aff our heids, stand on the bing cause the JHS was condemmed and pee yersel just to keep yer legs warm. I have to disagree..when the shed was there it looked like a football stadium now its just a mismatch joke of a ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 @ Mediocre pundit Sorry mate, just thought you might be. Surely it is not a matter best resolved on a basis of personal opinions of what is satisfactory or acceptable. One's standards may differ from another. But some of the complaints that have been made about the JHS are matters of fact. Conditions and facilities have deteriorated. Maybe not to a level that is in urgent need of attention or cause for alarm, but certainly a clear indication that the club is struggling to provide pristine maintence. Cost is of course the driving factor. Nothing will happen to the bing unless it is profitable. The current propco proposal is to use the profit from the bing development to part fund the end of the old stand. On completion this project would leave us with a lop-sided arena and the stand we currently struggle to half fill intact. My arguement is that I see more potential in the propco deal if any investment was used to modernise the JHS(It is 15 years old now), reduce its capacity, increase its ammenities and potential revenue raising accomodation, make it's spectator accomodation cheaper to maintain and not discard facilities in the old stand that are far from obsolete. If i were king, and were able to attract a developer/buyer I would tackle the JHS first. We have 4000 other seats between the north and old stands. The bing is the only part of the ground we can afford to let rot a little longer, even if it is ugly and emabarrasing. Get an artist in to tart it up for nowt or cover it in adverts or thistle flags in the interim. Right now its ugly but low maintenance but I'm sure we've all had to deal with that at some point in our lives before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 That's a matter of opinion. People are constanly complaining about the JHS. Too big - no atmosphere, facilities deteriorating - seats/toilets, poor catering, the battle for the north end between the family section/shed boys... The shed is an eyesore. but must be the cheapest part of the ground to maintain at the moment. You're a steward, right? On what basis do they allocate stewards to the various sections of the ground... Main stand? JHS? North stand? edit : The Bing ... oops! Sorry to veer of topic but do other Jags who occupy 'The Shed' cringe at this? Not having a go Chewy, loads of people use it, I just don't like the phrase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) Sorry to veer of topic but do other Jags who occupy 'The Shed' cringe at this? Not having a go Chewy, loads of people use it, I just don't like the phrase. I cringe too pal... just using it for reference... Calling it "the shed area" is an insult to the memories in my humble opinion. Edited December 8, 2011 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mediocre Pundit Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 @ Mediocre pundit Sorry mate, just thought you might be. Surely it is not a matter best resolved on a basis of personal opinions of what is satisfactory or acceptable. One's standards may differ from another. But some of the complaints that have been made about the JHS are matters of fact. Conditions and facilities have deteriorated. Maybe not to a level that is in urgent need of attention or cause for alarm, but certainly a clear indication that the club is struggling to provide pristine maintence. Cost is of course the driving factor. Nothing will happen to the bing unless it is profitable. The current propco proposal is to use the profit from the bing development to part fund the end of the old stand. On completion this project would leave us with a lop-sided arena and the stand we currently struggle to half fill intact. My arguement is that I see more potential in the propco deal if any investment was used to modernise the JHS(It is 15 years old now), reduce its capacity, increase its ammenities and potential revenue raising accomodation, make it's spectator accomodation cheaper to maintain and not discard facilities in the old stand that are far from obsolete. If i were king, and were able to attract a developer/buyer I would tackle the JHS first. We have 4000 other seats between the north and old stands. The bing is the only part of the ground we can afford to let rot a little longer, even if it is ugly and emabarrasing. Get an artist in to tart it up for nowt or cover it in adverts or thistle flags in the interim. Right now its ugly but low maintenance but I'm sure we've all had to deal with that at some point in our lives before. Fair enough. While I disagree with the "route forward" that I would take if I had a spare £2-3m lying around, what I don't disagree with is that the current version of Firhill is a bit of a shambles that is not conducive to maximising my enjoyment of watching Thistle. Sadly we're unlikely to see it change for the better anytime soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleGreySky Posted December 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 This knocking the JHS down talk is nonsense. The part that would have to go is the part with everything in it. Where is the gantry, hospitality etc going to go? They'd have to be rebuilt and there's nowhere for them to go. This kind of debate is the exact reason why it would be better leave. Firhill doesn't really have much scope - without great expense - for being transformed into something which suits our more modest needs. If the transformation was to be made at great expense, I'd presume we'd have to be doing a lot better on the pitch and as a club in general, and so probably wouldn't feel the same need to make the stadium more fitting of our current ambitions. Catch 22, and why we're still having this same debate. The only way Firhill is ever going to suit the club well is if we grow in status by quite a lot, tidy it up and develop the south end. Otherwise, we're going to be too skint to do anything with it and just end with the JHS and north end open and nothing else happening, just like the past 7 or so years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryHell Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 The only benefit we could posibly get from laying an astroturf pitch is by letting it out when we are not using it, being able to use it for training etc. In order to let it out, we would have to seriously develop some kind of changing facilities etc. Is there a posibility of finding a leisure partner to develop the main stand as it is to include fitness suites etc. inside that the public could use, while maintaining the seating that could be used to profit from by hosting concerts/events/larger cup games etc. Would propco be interested in such a development? What is the clubs involvement with the Firhill Complex, if any? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 @ palegreysky The poll will give the consensus but the majority opinion aint always the for the best. You asked for our thoughts. I've expressed the opinion that moving is unfeasable and undesirable for the clear reasons that it may be unaffordable to acheive, offers no certainty of financial security or increased poularity if acheived and dismisses the value of what we currently have at our disposal in regards to both facilities and supporter's needs. You seem to think moving is the cheaper, easier option and most likely to see the club flourish. Can you explain how you reach this conclusion bearing in mind the club no longer owns Firhill outright, are currently failing to find an investor/developer willing to buy the land we have for sale and the examples I gave earlier of the specific conditions of other clubs who have managed to relocate with varying degrees of success? I hope your concern for the gantry and hospitality in the JHS is extended to the current propco plans to overcrowd the bing with flats and office blocks and to wantonly disregard the Aitken suite, office space, changing rooms, disabled supporter accomodation, 2000 seats, dug outs, pie stalls, board and trophy room in the old stand that are all still in use or useable. Where the hell are they all gonna go? Is that not nonsense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watson Towers Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Without Firhill, I'd feel a horrible dislocation watching Thistle. It wouldn't really be Thistle in many ways. More generally, I think it would be the death of the club. There are too many fan(nies) looking for an excuse to chuck it these days. A move from Firhill would play right into their lap. "Aye, I used to be a Jaggo. But since they moved to Scotstoun/Hampden/some-shitty-field-in-the-middle-of-nowhere I just get my football on Sky. That Berbatov/Messi/Rooney is a great wee player" fk off or shut up and support the Jags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjptfc Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Don't know why you think I'm a steward but you've got me mistaken. I personally think the JH is alright. Too big, yes, but acceptable. I don't think the bing is acceptable and I would love to see the Main Stand redeveloped to be for hospitality and the family zone. Then we could even use the current hospitality area as a supporters bar again, with cheap hospitality tickets (like the curry night for Morton) every matchday to give fans another option of how to take in the game. I think this makes some sense. The Main Stand would need a good clean, maybe a lick of paint and some improved lighting. If the hospitality, directors were moved back across to the Main Stand to use the Aitken Suite, and the rest of the Stand open to kids (and old fellas if they want), not sure how many stewards would be required for this? However, only one turnstyle would need to be open. The JHS would be open, 3/4 for home support and a quarter for away fans for First Division matches. The more vocal can sit/stand where they like and generate a bit of atmosphere. The Alan Rough Suite would be re-opened as a supporters bar as mentioned above, before and after the match just like it used to be in the 90's. The beer reasonably priced and have a mobile bookies in there. Open from 12 till kick off and from full time till 7pm. Keep the North Stand closed as there is no need for it to be open. Only use it when the anticipated numbers demand it. I could live with the grassy eye-sore to my left and the empty stand to my right for a while if there was a crowd of some description across from me in the Main Stand. If, and it should be achievable, we win promotion in the next while, we can open the North Stand if required, and if we can stay there for a while and earn a bit of cash, we could hope at some point to clear the grass on the left and build a very basic terracing the same size as the North Stand to give us back our 4 sided stadium. It wouldn't have to be fancy, it doesn't even need a roof at first. If we could ever sustain an SPL place for a decent length of time then maybe we could gradually gain the cash to install a roof, and then maybe the German-style barriers/seating which have been mentioned before. We won't fill Firhill regularly, we never will. We never did before we built the JHS, it just looked better because there were bodies in all 4 sides of the ground. But I don't think leaving Firhill is the answer, a huge part of the Club will be gone, for me anyway. We sat back and allowed the current situation to develop, we need to be there to encourage something to be done to fix it. It will take a lot of time, and promotion is vital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigesige00 Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Why leaving Firhill now? I think that there is no legitimate reason. If we became a bigger club which frequently beats the OF, let's move to a larger stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejag Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Without Firhill, I'd feel a horrible dislocation watching Thistle. It wouldn't really be Thistle in many ways. More generally, I think it would be the death of the club. There are too many fan(nies) looking for an excuse to chuck it these days. A move from Firhill would play right into their lap. "Aye, I used to be a Jaggo. But since they moved to Scotstoun/Hampden/some-shitty-field-in-the-middle-of-nowhere I just get my football on Sky. That Berbatov/Messi/Rooney is a great wee player" fk off or shut up and support the Jags FK off?? great debating skills??? The club is dying at Firhill and we are not going to turn it round while we are there, Even if we were in the SPL, we would struggle to fill it to any great degree, Its becoming an eyesore which is all itsy-bitsy.The club should be actively exploring other sites for the club. Ive had many years at Firhill and fantastic memories, but we need to look forward and get this club onto a sound footing, We are going to die ,if we dont get out of there!!! Im a FAN, NOT A *****!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duntocher jag Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Agree, Looked at your blogsite. Not bad!!! I love your panoramic picture of Firhill!!! Happy Days!!! Thanks Joejag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleGreySky Posted December 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 @ palegreysky The poll will give the consensus but the majority opinion aint always the for the best. You asked for our thoughts. I've expressed the opinion that moving is unfeasable and undesirable for the clear reasons that it may be unaffordable to acheive, offers no certainty of financial security or increased poularity if acheived and dismisses the value of what we currently have at our disposal in regards to both facilities and supporter's needs. You seem to think moving is the cheaper, easier option and most likely to see the club flourish. Can you explain how you reach this conclusion bearing in mind the club no longer owns Firhill outright, are currently failing to find an investor/developer willing to buy the land we have for sale and the examples I gave earlier of the specific conditions of other clubs who have managed to relocate with varying degrees of success? I hope your concern for the gantry and hospitality in the JHS is extended to the current propco plans to overcrowd the bing with flats and office blocks and to wantonly disregard the Aitken suite, office space, changing rooms, disabled supporter accomodation, 2000 seats, dug outs, pie stalls, board and trophy room in the old stand that are all still in use or useable. Where the hell are they all gonna go? Is that not nonsense? I get your points but, regarding ownership of the ground, the south and west sides of the ground are part owned by the propco directors and part by the club. If the club's directors were to decide that selling up the entire ground was best, then that would include those in charge of propco, as far as I'm aware. I appreciate that the main stand has lots of prima facie good facilities. However, although I'm not sure of the current figure, the club has a very expensive insurance and maintenance bill to pay each year for a stand that isn't required as far as capacity is concerned. For example, there were all sorts of problems to do with fire safety because of the stairwells which, to be remedied, woudl need to be entirely rebuilt. If it was possible to sell up the whole plot for a fair sum, I'd prefer to have a more well-planned and thought through ground for around 5000 odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 I get your points but, regarding ownership of the ground, the south and west sides of the ground are part owned by the propco directors and part by the club. If the club's directors were to decide that selling up the entire ground was best, then that would include those in charge of propco, as far as I'm aware. I appreciate that the main stand has lots of prima facie good facilities. However, although I'm not sure of the current figure, the club has a very expensive insurance and maintenance bill to pay each year for a stand that isn't required as far as capacity is concerned. For example, there were all sorts of problems to do with fire safety because of the stairwells which, to be remedied, woudl need to be entirely rebuilt. If it was possible to sell up the whole plot for a fair sum, I'd prefer to have a more well-planned and thought through ground for around 5000 odd. I'd even settle for the loss of the entire main stand if there was a decent sized stand (incorporating dressing rooms etc.) at the city end. Sure, it might not be needed yet, but when we start to get into Europe etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleGreySky Posted December 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 I think Falkirk and Hamilton's grounds are actually ok with 2 and 3 sides. It's just whether it's tidy and well designed. If we were to completely scrap having anything opposite the JHS, but have the same as the north stand at the south end, it'd actually be pretty good. Can't even afford that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 (edited) I get your points but, regarding ownership of the ground, the south and west sides of the ground are part owned by the propco directors and part by the club. If the club's directors were to decide that selling up the entire ground was best, then that would include those in charge of propco, as far as I'm aware. I appreciate that the main stand has lots of prima facie good facilities. However, although I'm not sure of the current figure, the club has a very expensive insurance and maintenance bill to pay each year for a stand that isn't required as far as capacity is concerned. For example, there were all sorts of problems to do with fire safety because of the stairwells which, to be remedied, woudl need to be entirely rebuilt. If it was possible to sell up the whole plot for a fair sum, I'd prefer to have a more well-planned and thought through ground for around 5000 odd. As I understand it : The club directors do not make up the sum total of partners involved with propco. The money raised for the club from the propco deal thus far, revenue from the sale of 50%approx of the areas you noted to outside investors, helped stave off our debt problems. Although I beleive those investors to have acheived a very reasonable deal with their purchase, I imagine they would be looking for a considerably larger return than would be achived from simply selling on the property. This would detract from any budget the club had left to finance the purchase of land elswhere and construct a stadium on it, if such a deal to sell Firhil in it's entirity were to be negotiated. I could be mistaken. I would accept this point graciously, if it were not for the way that many of these facilities have deteriorated through neglect while money has been spent needlessly and unproductively elsewhere. I doubt the tranfer of the whole hospitality opperation has been the commercial success it was hoped to be. Switching the supporters bar to the Aitken suite has a patronizing air of it's not good enough for us so you have it. The building of a new directors box, additional comfy seats for hospitality guests, upgrading the press area has lumped everyone uncomfortably together, would have incurred considerable cost and meanwhile our disabled supporter facility appears to be an inconvienient gesture rather than an encouraging welcome. We are now to beleive that the dressing rooms and offices are inadequate so that they too can be mooted for what will be another expensive relocation to make way for the propco bulldozer. One could angle a similar arguement against the JHS. Its has never been more than half full all season and the Morton curry special is clear evidence that the hospitality operation is struggling in its new home. I will take your word that fire safety is a serious issue with the old stand and an unimaginably expensive one to resolve. But I would ask if it is such a firetrap was it really worth putting at risk the lives those celtic supporters who watched the pre season game from there. What if one of them had let off a dodgy flare? I wonder what will happen if we beat Q.O.S. in the cup and get a home tie against the old firm? It's not a matter for personal preferences. It's a matter of making the most of what we have. Edited December 9, 2011 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 I think Falkirk and Hamilton's grounds are actually ok with 2 and 3 sides. It's just whether it's tidy and well designed. If we were to completely scrap having anything opposite the JHS, but have the same as the north stand at the south end, it'd actually be pretty good. Can't even afford that though. Agreed about the south end. Hamilton's ground though is very ugly, with both their stands being raised well above the pitch. (So is our main stand, but there's an enclosed terracing in front.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleGreySky Posted December 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 It's not a matter for personal preferences. It's a matter of making the most of what we have. My point was that, if the club was to actually be making money or breaking even by selling up, I wouldn't let sentimentality get in the way. Seems most people think the same way. I'd assume the club would say that the money spent on moving hospitality etc was to try and improve revenue streams. Looking out over the pitch from the current hospitality is better than being in the aitken suite. Maybe it hasn't paid off financially though. Spending the same money on doing up the main stand for it not to be used is less likely to be fruitful though. Just to be clear, I love the main stand. If we could afford it, and had fans, I'd love it to be well looked after and would probably sit in it if it was open. I even suggested a while back that we use it for the home support rather than the JHS. The main stand and the enclosure would do absolutely fine, but the club will have plenty of reasons why it couldn't and wouldn't be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineens weegie army Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Just out of interest, for those who support leaving Firhill... How about following your current tenants to Scotstoun? Still inside Glasgow (and not all that far from Partick), 6,000 is quite a good capacity for Thistle right now, and Scotstoun will (starting from next may) be able to hold 15,000 if the demand is there* (so allows for cup games against the OF ect.) A venue worth considering? *Details announced today by the SRU/Glasgow City Council, with the news the IRB sevens tournament is coming to Glasgow. Artists impression of the ground available here http://www.glasgow7s.com/buy-tickets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernsoul Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Scotstoun for football? No thanks. It would be awful and would be the end of Thistle. In addition to those green and blue seats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicofan Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Just thinking about the amount of unused space at Firhill...office space..stands,the bing and 2 massive lounges in the AR and Aitken Suite although the latter masquerades as pre match bar, We must have the most underused facilities of any ground in Scotland! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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