One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.

[jaggybunnet]

Nick Robinson sums it up for me

 

 

I put it to Alex Salmond that what was missing in today's more than 600 page document were words like "perhaps", "maybe" or, even, "fingers crossed."

[kni]

Err, the UK has to implement laws imposed by Brussels, or haven't you noticed. So can't [insert your insult here] Cameron feck off? Oh, and your UK is also a member of the other bodies you mention; you have no problem with that?

 

I do have a problem with that and have no time for David Cameron. The UK and Scotland (in the UK or not) should leave the EU and those other international organisations.

Edited November 27, 2013 by kni

[Guy Incognito]

Yes but out of the EU like Norway, Switzerland and Iceland. Scotland cannot be independent if it has to implement laws imposed by Brussels. Unfortunately, that's not on offer according to wee fat Alex so he can feck off. And a truly independent Scotland should not be part of other international government bodies such as the Council of Europe, UN, NATO, WTO, OECD etc!

 

Then when the time comes, vote for a party that better reflects your views. This isn't an election in the conventional sense. Granted, much of the white paper reads like a de facto SNP manifesto, but since they and they alone were tasked with producing the document then it could hardly read like anything else.

 

Would you not rather Scotland made its own decisions about matters which affect it instead of having them made for us? That is sort of what this whole thing is about.

[Norgethistle]

Then when the time comes, vote for a party that better reflects your views. This isn't an election in the conventional sense. Granted, much of the white paper reads like a de facto SNP manifesto, but since they and they alone were tasked with producing the document then it could hardly read like anything else.

 

Would you not rather Scotland made its own decisions about matters which affect it instead of having them made for us? That is sort of what this whole thing is about.

 

This is the problem this is not a white paper on an independant Scotlands future but on an SNP controlled independant Scotland

 

The megalomaniac Salmond has put his ego and his party politics ahead of outlining how an independant Scotland would operate

[Jaggernaut]

This is the problem this is not a white paper on an independant Scotlands future but on an SNP controlled independant Scotland

 

The megalomaniac Salmond has put his ego and his party politics ahead of outlining how an independant Scotland would operate

 

God almighty, what else can they do? An independent Scotland will not necessarily be "SNP controlled", it will be up to the electorate to decide who "controls" the government, just as in every decent democracy in the world.

As Guy Incognito has said, the SNP are the only ones putting forward this document, so what else could it possibly be but their views? If that's megalomania, then just about everybody in the world must suffer from the same condition.

[Jaggernaut]

that's the point we have had a deficit and will continue to have one, the snp have tried to hide this using % when putting it out to the public, i want to know if we would be better off and as yet (awaiting white paper) no one can prove that we would be, so why would i vote for it?

 

Here's a comment from today's Herald that might interest you:

 

"We are constantly being asked how Scotland is going to pay for this or that but no one seems to ask where the money is coming from to pay for HS2, the Trident upgrade, Cross Rail, Boris island, The repairs to the Palace of Westminster and the upgrade to the English ship yards to build the ships that are being built on the Clyde. There is also the little matter of the £1,430,000,000,000 debt that the UK government had built up. A debt that is growing each day. When is someone going to ask these questions?"

 

Note that none of these will be of any benefit to Scotland, yet we will be paying for them. And what is Westminster's solution?: Austerity, austerity, austerity, hitting hardest those of us who are the ones to bear the brunt of it. The rich and middle-classess don't worry, as they are continuing to line their pockets, and they always will. And all you can say is that you want somebody to "prove" that independence from Westminster for Scotland will be better than what the future is going to be under continued dependence!

[Mr Scruff]

There seems to me to be a fundamental difference to outlining the facts of the character and mechanics of achieving 'independence' and outlining how you might govern in certain circumstances. Very disappointing.

 

I would like a choice that actually involves independence but that doesn't appear to be the choice.

[Jaggernaut]

There seems to me to be a fundamental difference to outlining the facts of the character and mechanics of achieving 'independence' and outlining how you might govern in certain circumstances. Very disappointing.

 

I would like a choice that actually involves independence but that doesn't appear to be the choice.

 

Independence from whom or what, Mr. S.? Is there any country in the world (even including N. Korea) that has the type of independence that you would like to be able to choose? And if an independent Scotland can't give you the independence you'd like, does that automatically mean that the "choices" (on overseas wars, broadcasting, international relations, economic growth, etc. etc.) that we are given by London (i.e., no choice) is somehow better?

[Mr Scruff]

I think you and I probably have a different view of what Union means (ie I don't view the EU as ruled by Brussels and I don't view the UK as ruled by London).

 

But to answer part of your question (which I believe cuts to the heart of the matter), I would point to the earlier discussion in this forum where I gave my own definition of independence, and one that I could seriously consider supporting. At least it would be honest.

 

But on a simple level - I don't believe you can have political autonomy without fiscal autonomy, and you cant have fiscal autonomy without monetary autonomy. The Sterling Zone without political influence leaves us in a worse position. And it isn't 'independence'. IMO

 

I should say again that I am in the No camp but am open-minded. What may sway me is the potential for an 'independent' Scotland to remain in the EU while the UK exits. But that's because I believe there is value in mutually beneficial unions.

[Jaggernaut]

I think you and I probably have a different view of what Union means (ie I don't view the EU as ruled by Brussels and I don't view the UK as ruled by London).

 

But to answer part of your question (which I believe cuts to the heart of the matter), I would point to the earlier discussion in this forum where I gave my own definition of independence, and one that I could seriously consider supporting. At least it would be honest.

 

But on a simple level - I don't believe you can have political autonomy without fiscal autonomy, and you cant have fiscal autonomy without monetary autonomy. The Sterling Zone without political influence leaves us in a worse position. And it isn't 'independence'. IMO

 

I should say again that I am in the No camp but am open-minded. What may sway me is the potential for an 'independent' Scotland to remain in the EU while the UK exits. But that's because I believe there is value in mutually beneficial unions.

 

I'm having difficulty fathoming the rationale of your stance. Is this right?: You're against an independent Scotland being in a Sterling union with the rUK (because in your mind Scotland would have no political influence), but you might be swayed if Scotland remained in the EU (where it would have political influence) and the rUK left the EU? So what would be Scotland's currency in your preferred scenario, and how would it be different to the first one (apart from the Euro possibly replacing the Pound)?

[Mr Scruff]

I'm having difficulty fathoming the rationale of your stance. Is this right?: You're against an independent Scotland being in a Sterling union with the rUK (because in your mind Scotland would have no political influence), but you might be swayed if Scotland remained in the EU (where it would have political influence) and the rUK left the EU? So what would be Scotland's currency in your preferred scenario, and how would it be different to the first one (apart from the Euro possibly replacing the Pound)?

If we're independent from the UK in 2016 then an independent currency.

 

If the EU moves towards closer political integration in the Euro Zone then we'd have to decide if that was beneficial - if it was then part of that Union would require us to be in the Euro (obviously).

 

But as I say, for me, currency union requires fiscal union which requires political union.

[kni]

Then when the time comes, vote for a party that better reflects your views. This isn't an election in the conventional sense. Granted, much of the white paper reads like a de facto SNP manifesto, but since they and they alone were tasked with producing the document then it could hardly read like anything else.

 

Would you not rather Scotland made its own decisions about matters which affect it instead of having them made for us? That is sort of what this whole thing is about.

 

I would prefer that Scotland made its own decisions but that cannot happen if Scotland is a member of the undemocratic European Union. I would rather have some of our our laws decided by elected Parliamentarians in Westminster than unelected foreign bureaucrats in Brussels. For the avoidance of doubt, I would prefer Scotland to be part of the UK that is outside the EU than to be separate from the UK and in the EU. The English, Welsh and Irish politicians are more likely to act in our national interest than Hollande, Merkel etc.

[jaggybunnet]

Here's a comment from today's Herald that might interest you:

 

"We are constantly being asked how Scotland is going to pay for this or that but no one seems to ask where the money is coming from to pay for HS2, the Trident upgrade, Cross Rail, Boris island, The repairs to the Palace of Westminster and the upgrade to the English ship yards to build the ships that are being built on the Clyde. There is also the little matter of the £1,430,000,000,000 debt that the UK government had built up. A debt that is growing each day. When is someone going to ask these questions?"

 

Note that none of these will be of any benefit to Scotland, yet we will be paying for them. And what is Westminster's solution?: Austerity, austerity, austerity, hitting hardest those of us who are the ones to bear the brunt of it. The rich and middle-classess don't worry, as they are continuing to line their pockets, and they always will. And all you can say is that you want somebody to "prove" that independence from Westminster for Scotland will be better than what the future is going to be under continued dependence!

 

 

yes because as Scotland we will only have the taxes from some 3 mil + but according to the wish list we would be spending more!!

[kni]

If an independent Scotland offered lower corporation and other taxes (like Ireland did), companies and individuals could move from other countries. There could be huge increases in revenues to be gained. Tax competition is the issue that HM Treasury does not want to discuss.

[Jaggernaut]

yes because as Scotland we will only have the taxes from some 3 mil + but according to the wish list we would be spending more!!

 

You haven't answered the guy's question.

[jaggybunnet]

You haven't answered the guy's question.

 

what question?

[Jaggernaut]

what question?

 

These:

 

"We are constantly being asked how Scotland is going to pay for this or that but no one seems to ask where the money is coming from to pay for HS2, the Trident upgrade, Cross Rail, Boris island, The repairs to the Palace of Westminster and the upgrade to the English ship yards to build the ships that are being built on the Clyde. There is also the little matter of the £1,430,000,000,000 debt that the UK government had built up. A debt that is growing each day. When is someone going to ask these questions?"

[jaggybunnet]

These:

 

"We are constantly being asked how Scotland is going to pay for this or that but no one seems to ask where the money is coming from to pay for HS2, the Trident upgrade, Cross Rail, Boris island, The repairs to the Palace of Westminster and the upgrade to the English ship yards to build the ships that are being built on the Clyde. There is also the little matter of the £1,430,000,000,000 debt that the UK government had built up. A debt that is growing each day. When is someone going to ask these questions?"

 

i did with the tax post, also do you know that no scottish companies are involved in any of those and faslane gets money.

[Jaggernaut]

i did with the tax post, also do you know that no scottish companies are involved in any of those and faslane gets money.

 

You've answered nothing. These projects will involve absolutely massive outlays, with the employment going to non-Scottish companies (on that you are right), and with the benefits entirely restricted to regions of middle and south-east England. Oh, "Faslane gets money". So we've to say Thank you, thank you, thank you, Westminster? These horrors are on our doorstep, not theirs (they're not that stupid). And what about the trillions of UK debt? Is that a benefit of "better together'? It will never be paid in our lifetimes, and it is entirely due to Westminster governments paying to try to maintain a false image of britain.

 

Why are we "better together'? Go on, prove it!

[The Sunnylaw Jag]

In regards to the White Paper just published, how can anyone put forward plans for an Independent Scotland when they might not form the government of a new Scotland? BTW - In one word I'm voting 'Yes'.

[Norgethistle]

You've answered nothing. These projects will involve absolutely massive outlays, with the employment going to non-Scottish companies (on that you are right), and with the benefits entirely restricted to regions of middle and south-east England. Oh, "Faslane gets money". So we've to say Thank you, thank you, thank you, Westminster? These horrors are on our doorstep, not theirs (they're not that stupid). And what about the trillions of UK debt? Is that a benefit of "better together'? It will never be paid in our lifetimes, and it is entirely due to Westminster governments paying to try to maintain a false image of britain.

 

Why are we "better together'? Go on, prove it!

 

What about the inherit Scottish debt, which also is colossal

As for painting a false image that is exactly what Eck and Nicky's white paper was "Everything will be rosy" "Less Tax" "More Benefits", "We have the OIL"

I would have been way more inclined to change my vote if a reality paper had came out highlighting how much taxes would need to come up, cause they will, how much public spending cuts would be needed and for how long.

The next few years are seeing a down turn in North sea oil production with no up-turn forecast, over 2000 job losses announced in Norway this week alone, so the nonsense he is spouting about the silver bullet being the oil fund is nonsense, it took Norway over a decade before a penny could be put into it, and they had less debt (even in todays terms) more oil, and the big factor no one is mentioning owns the oil company, field, rig and pipeline, the UK (& Scotland) doesn't it has sold exploration, drilling and production licences and as such gets a payment

[jaggybunnet]

You've answered nothing. These projects will involve absolutely massive outlays, with the employment going to non-Scottish companies (on that you are right), and with the benefits entirely restricted to regions of middle and south-east England. Oh, "Faslane gets money". So we've to say Thank you, thank you, thank you, Westminster? These horrors are on our doorstep, not theirs (they're not that stupid). And what about the trillions of UK debt? Is that a benefit of "better together'? It will never be paid in our lifetimes, and it is entirely due to Westminster governments paying to try to maintain a false image of britain.

 

Why are we "better together'? Go on, prove it!

 

once again the ysnp camp dont get it, use want to change everything you have to prove it.

 

we are living the better together plan, no one said it was nice, the problem for the yes camp has always been to show we would be better off or at least not worse off............they havent.

 

oh and the hs2 stuff isn't just a england thing scotland can waste money on there own rail system as well, £350 mil on 30 miles of track?

 

http://www.scot-buzz.co.uk/business-economy/borders-railway-folly-another-trams-debacle-making

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/company-news/the-borders-railway-a-350m-ticket-to-nowhere.22338519

[Meister Jag]

I join this late and confess to not having read all of the posts. But as a silly aside, it would be nice to know how much money will be ring-fenced for social services. Way I see it, an independent Scotland will need to find money to re-shape the country and this won't be found overnight. We can talk about oil wealth but how accessible is this i.e. when will it flow into Scotland?

 

So does this mean that we borrow heavily until the fiscal ties are established and a deal with Westminster is struck? Presumably we will keep the likes of Faslane, swear allegiance to the Crown and then get some kind of payment for the risk involved i.e. annihilation. In return, will HM get to keep Balmoral and Holyrood or will they become government residences like Chequers; is that hidden away in the WP?

 

So many questions but my prime concerns remains dealing with the zombies who are parading about our streets. Independence will not solve unemployment and our drink and drug culture overnight; or will it? Indeed, does anyone believe that the vote will actually be in favour of independence?

 

Sorry to appear so cynical but if this change does or doesn't happen, I see no bright new tomorrow.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Meister Jag

[Jaggernaut]

once again the ysnp camp dont get it, use want to change everything you have to prove it.

 

we are living the better together plan, no one said it was nice, the problem for the yes camp has always been to show we would be better off or at least not worse off............they havent.

 

oh and the hs2 stuff isn't just a england thing scotland can waste money on there own rail system as well, £350 mil on 30 miles of track?

 

http://www.scot-buzz...-debacle-making

 

http://www.heraldsco...owhere.22338519

 

What an outlook of despair and helplessness you have. And you don't appear to hold any desire to see any change.

[Jaggernaut]

What about the inherit Scottish debt, which also is colossal

As for painting a false image that is exactly what Eck and Nicky's white paper was "Everything will be rosy" "Less Tax" "More Benefits", "We have the OIL"

I would have been way more inclined to change my vote if a reality paper had came out highlighting how much taxes would need to come up, cause they will, how much public spending cuts would be needed and for how long.

The next few years are seeing a down turn in North sea oil production with no up-turn forecast, over 2000 job losses announced in Norway this week alone, so the nonsense he is spouting about the silver bullet being the oil fund is nonsense, it took Norway over a decade before a penny could be put into it, and they had less debt (even in todays terms) more oil, and the big factor no one is mentioning owns the oil company, field, rig and pipeline, the UK (& Scotland) doesn't it has sold exploration, drilling and production licences and as such gets a payment

 

So what? There is enough North Sea oil to last well beyond all of our lifetimes. What about the UK's dependency on oil for shoring up it's crippled financial status and financing its illegal wars, nuclear weapons, new titanic, etc. etc.

 

How many times does it need to be said: Scottish independence is not about oil, and it's not about Alex Salmond.

 

You'll know that the UK is now extremely dependent on financial services. How fragile an economy is that! All it needs is for the EU to decide that most transactions need to be conducted in a Eurozone country (and many politicians would like to see this), and London will be entirely crippled.

 

How do you see the UK paying off its debt? And how smart do you think the UK government has been to allow it to get to that unbelievable sum in the first place?

 

I think you should be more honest and say that nothing would make you change your voting intention.