One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.

[Jaggernaut]

 

the only scaremongering is from those in the yes camp who are trying to scare/bully people into voting yes when they know it wont work.

 

"Scare/bully"? Where's your evidence for that? The bitter together scaremongers have the monopoly on that approach, namely Project Fear, which clearly works for some people such as your good self.

[kni]

Frankly that's all scaremongering tosh. Are you seriously saying that Denmark, Belgium, Holland etc. are not "truly independent" because they are in the EU? So what about Britain, then? And why would Scotland be "desperate"? That's the kind of bitter together language that really shows who's "desperate" . What are you scared of? Decisions about Scotland's policies and priorities being made in Scotland and fully under Scottish control? Or are you saying that all those other countries in the EU don't have that?

 

Yes. I am saying that no country inside the EU, including Britain, is truly independent. Laws are imposed on them through qualified majority voting in the Commission and the rulings of the European Courts. The Lisbon Treaty was final nail in the coffin of Parliamentary sovereignty, the true measure of national independence. The EU controls the economic, social, justice, trade and foreign policies of the Member States. National Parliaments are required to pass laws that implement the EU's laws. If they don't, they are penalised by the EU's courts.

 

I am not scared of Scotland's policies and priorities being made in Scotland. In fact, that is exactly what I am advocating - an independent Scotland that is not in the EU and has its own freely floating currency. Scotland should be like other countries that are not governed by undemocratic supra-national bodies - like Norway, Switzerland, Australia and Canada. All we need is a free trade agreement with EU that should be subject to democratic approval in Holyrood.

 

You have misrepresented my position totally. It's you who is scared of Scots have REAL control over their own laws, economy and borders. Why can't we be like those countries above and countless others all over world? Why should Scots and other Europeans be ruled by appointed bureaucrats who are often failed or discredited politicians like Lord Patten, Lord Kinnock and Lord Mandelson?

 

The SNP should be renamed the Supra Nationalist Party - just another party (like the Tories, Lib Dems and Labour) that wants Scots to be ruled by Brussels (Commissioners), Strasbourg (MEPs) and Frankfurt (Bankers). Scotland needs a proper nationalist party, not the bunch of EU puppets and quislings in Holyrood.

Edited January 19, 2014 by kni

[kni]

First time posting here in this topic but just wanted to ask a few questions of points raised by Norgethistle. Is it not true that the $657 billion debt you mention is total external debt ie government debt and private debt, private debt being money owed by individuals and corporations. As a %age of GDP this is 141%. Compared to the external debt of UK which stands at over $10 trillion or 406% of GDP this seems very little. Irelands external debt to GDP currently stands at over 1,000% which is astonishing.

 

Was the $657 billion not the amount which was published in an Washington Times report which conveniently forgot to mention that this amount included the private sector debt as well.

 

Norwegian public debt ie Government debt stands at approximately 30% of GDP compared to the 90% which the UK government. In both the case of external debt and public debt I would say Norway is in a far better position than the current UK government are in.

 

Re the Netherlands having a lot of laws implemented via European Parliament, this is certainly not the case. In fact the Dutch Government last year published a document in which it stated 54 key policy areas which they feel should remain exclusively in the hands of the Dutch Parliament including direct taxation, indirect taxation affecting Dutch only matters, environmental issues, criminal law amongst others. In 2012 the Financial Times actually called the Dutch "the most obstructionist country in the EU". Having lived here for 12 years I would say the Dutch are not as pro-European as is made out and have a very healthy distrust of Brussels implementing laws directly on them.

 

But the EU will not allow it and the Dutch Government cannot repatriate those sovereign powers back to The Hague. Such changes, like Cameron's promised renegotiation, would require a new Treaty to replace or supplement the Lisbon Treaty.

 

Any new Treaty would have to be agreed by the Commission ratified by referenda in a few Member States, e.g. Ireland, Netherlands and France. The French would almost certainly veto it as Hollande is very federalist and favours more EU political integration.

 

You will be aware that the Dutch and French voters rejected the EU's constitutional treaty in referenda in 2005 but their wishes, as usual, were ignored by their governments. The last thing that Hollande wants is another referendum.

[Dizzytheegg]

Yes. I'd be very disappointed should we not get independence, but I'd survive. I can see us fully independent in 30 years, maybe not just now though.

[Norgethistle]

Yes. I'd be very disappointed should we not get independence, but I'd survive. I can see us fully independent in 30 years, maybe not just now though.

 

Surely it's a one time vote not something we will do every 5 years, if so an independence goes through can we vote to get back into the UK if it doesn't work out

[Dizzytheegg]

Not sure Norgethistle, I can't think of any country that's recently voted to a union. What I meant was I think it will be a slow, gradual move towards greater autonomy, by which time, people may feel more comfortable with independence. The change in legislation that makes the vote possible will probably be able to be used (technically) as many times as people want it.

[Duck snort]

Surely it's a one time vote not something we will do every 5 years, if so an independence goes through can we vote to get back into the UK if it doesn't work out

 

No reason why there couldn't be a re-unification if that's what all parties wanted, but why on earth would we want to. 55 countries have become independent from the UK since 1900 and not one has asked to come back, most who have nothing like the resources Scotland has.

[jaggybunnet]

No reason why there couldn't be a re-unification if that's what all parties wanted, but why on earth would we want to. 55 countries have become independent from the UK since 1900 and not one has asked to come back, most who have nothing like the resources Scotland has.

 

not this one again, most could not even if they wanted to.

[Jaggernaut]

not this one again, most could not even if they wanted to.

Hey, jb, we're still waiting for your evidence that the YES campaign is trying to "bully/scare" voters into voting for independence.

Can I just remind you that from various public figures in the bitter together movement we've had:

 

The rUK might have to bomb Scottish airports

 

Scots may no longer be able to watch Eastenders or Dr Who

 

Scotland (uniquely) would be excluded from sharing allies' intelligence about crime and terrorism

 

Scots in an independent Scotland will not be able to refer to themselves as British

 

England will be forced to put up border patrols between the two countries

 

North Sea oil will run out "soon"

 

etc.etc.

 

So, who's using bully boy/scare tactics?

[Norgethistle]

Hey, jb, we're still waiting for your evidence that the YES campaign is trying to "bully/scare" voters into voting for independence.

Can I just remind you that from various public figures in the bitter together movement we've had:

 

The rUK might have to bomb Scottish airports

 

Scots may no longer be able to watch Eastenders or Dr Who

 

Scotland (uniquely) would be excluded from sharing allies' intelligence about crime and terrorism

 

Scots in an independent Scotland will not be able to refer to themselves as British

 

England will be forced to put up border patrols between the two countries

 

North Sea oil will run out "soon"

 

etc.etc.

 

So, who's using bully boy/scare tactics?

 

Or how about the SNP's figures don't add up and Scotland will be bankrupt in 2 years if we follow through Alex's plan....... oh wait thats true not a scare tactic

[Guy Incognito]

Yes. I'd be very disappointed should we not get independence, but I'd survive. I can see us fully independent in 30 years, maybe not just now though.

 

I am much the same. If it doesn't happen this year it will be a great shame, in my view, but not the end of the world. If things carry on as they are - and sadly, I think that they will - then I can see us being independent in 15 - 25 years. Everything is pointing in this direction and the ball started rolling when we voted for our own parliament. The SNP, apparently, are the only political party in the UK to see its membership grow in recent years and they became the first party to date to win an outright majority at Holyrood. People who kid themselves on that there is no appetite for independence in Scotland have to ask themselves why these two entities exist in the first place.

[Guy Incognito]

not this one again, most could not even if they wanted to.

 

There is no evidence that any of them do though. That is his point.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

The SNP, apparently, are the only political party in the UK to see its membership grow in recent years and they became the first party to date to win an outright majority at Holyrood. People who kid themselves on that there is no appetite for independence in Scotland have to ask themselves why these two entities exist in the first place.

 

Could it be because people are happy with how SNP are running the devolved administration while at the same time are comfortable with Westminster and Holyrood setup? The SNP landslide was an amazing event but it was attributed to Lib Dem vote colllapse, Labour stay at home voters and low turnout - 50% which is terrible for democracy. When SNP hopefully lose the referendum the membership will tail off, hopefully we can move away from people accusing Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dems and others as "anti-Scottish" if they don't agree with them. There will be more voter and media coverage of the powers that Holyrood has and will gain.

[jaggybunnet]

There is no evidence that any of them do though. That is his point.

 

no evidence that any of them don't want it , i was in Bosnia and speaking to the locals most thought they were better off before before the split , that was limited and through interpreters obviously

[Jaggernaut]

Or how about the SNP's figures don't add up and Scotland will be bankrupt in 2 years if we follow through Alex's plan....... oh wait thats true not a scare tactic

Take a look at this. You'll diss it, of course, but many others won't.

 

http://www.businessf...ion-better-off/

 

Incidentally, these kinds of reports do not make it into the papers or onto the BBC. Ask yourself why.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[Norgethistle]

Take a look at this. You'll diss it, of course, but many others won't.

 

http://www.businessf...ion-better-off/

 

Incidentally, these kinds of reports do not make it into the papers or onto the BBC. Ask yourself why.

 

Its written by the Jimmy Reid Foundation, i stopped reading it when I noticed that, cross sectional think tank??? Cross section of far left

[Guy Incognito]

Could it be because people are happy with how SNP are running the devolved administration while at the same time are comfortable with Westminster and Holyrood setup? The SNP landslide was an amazing event but it was attributed to Lib Dem vote colllapse, Labour stay at home voters and low turnout - 50% which is terrible for democracy. When SNP hopefully lose the referendum the membership will tail off, hopefully we can move away from people accusing Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dems and others as "anti-Scottish" if they don't agree with them. There will be more voter and media coverage of the powers that Holyrood has and will gain.

 

I wasn't suggesting that every person who voted SNP in 2011 will vote Yes this year, as much as I might like that to happen (plus a few hundred thousand more!). I agree, in a sense, that their success was more down to the decent job they have done at Holyrood since 2007; and when even you can allude to that it suggests that they must have! But everyone knows that a core principle of the party is Scottish independence, albeit the flavours of that concept have varied over the years. What I was getting at, then, was why such a party - and a party that is now firmly part of mainstream politics - even exists if everything is rosy in the garden of the UK.

 

Are people comfortable with the current Holyrood/Westminster setup? Perhaps they are. But I would suggest that people, on the whole, are less comfortable with the Westminster side of it, hence why Holyrood is there in the first place.

 

To me, the fact that we now have our own parliament, albeit with limited but not insignificant powers, points to a desire in Scotland for greater autonomy. There is even evidence out there that supports the idea that Scots want the right to determine their own affairs, but that the label 'independence' is toxic.

 

no evidence that any of them don't want it , i was in Bosnia and speaking to the locals most thought they were better off before before the split , that was limited and through interpreters obviously

 

And when was Bosnia ever part of the Great British Empire?

 

 

[Guy Incognito]

Take a look at this. You'll diss it, of course, but many others won't.

 

http://www.businessf...ion-better-off/

 

Incidentally, these kinds of reports do not make it into the papers or onto the BBC. Ask yourself why.

 

What, this BBC?

 

http://issuu.com/creative_futur/docs/robertson2014fairnessinthefirstyear

 

http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2014/01/22/breaking-newsbbc-threatens-academic/

 

He who pays the piper calls the tune, I guess...

[Jaggernaut]

Its written by the Jimmy Reid Foundation, i stopped reading it when I noticed that, cross sectional think tank??? Cross section of far left

Oh, I see. Left wing reports on Westminster cheating Scotland bad, right wing project fear propoganda good. Enjoy your reading!

[Jaggernaut]

What, this BBC?

 

http://issuu.com/cre...sinthefirstyear

 

http://derekbateman1...atens-academic/

 

He who pays the piper calls the tune, I guess...

I read that too. Needless to say, the BBC are going mental as their unionist bias has been exposed for all to see. No doubt Norgethistle and jaggybunnet etc will accuse the researcher of being left wing and/or SNP, even though it's clearly not the case.

[kni]

I read that too. Needless to say, the BBC are going mental as their unionist bias has been exposed for all to see. No doubt Norgethistle and jaggybunnet etc will accuse the researcher of being left wing and/or SNP, even though it's clearly not the case.

 

Are you surprised that the BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation appears to be pro-Unionist? If Scotland votes YES, it's likely that the BBC will lose/divest its Scottish income and assets. As always, it's all about money and vested interests.

 

However, the BBC is accused of being biased against all sorts of groups or opinions. The Conservatives, UKIP and right-wing organisations accuse of being biased - against them and market economics but for the EU and man-made global warming. The unions and left-wing organisations accuse the BBC of bias against them too. Then there are the Christian groups who don't like the BBC's advocacy of gay rights.

[Jaggernaut]

Are you surprised that the BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation appears to be pro-Unionist? If Scotland votes YES, it's likely that the BBC will lose/divest its Scottish income and assets. As always, it's all about money and vested interests.

 

However, the BBC is accused of being biased against all sorts of groups or opinions. The Conservatives, UKIP and right-wing organisations accuse of being biased - against them and market economics but for the EU and man-made global warming. The unions and left-wing organisations accuse the BBC of bias against them too. Then there are the Christian groups who don't like the BBC's advocacy of gay rights.

Of course it's no surprise. Nor is is a surprise that, as reported in yesterday's Herald, that British embassies are talking down Scotland all over the world, and yet these people are supposed to be working in our interest. All of the groups you mention that accuse the BBC of being biased against them may or may not have a case, but the bias shown against the YES campaign is clearly backed up by hard evidence that cannot be denied.

[kni]

^ Other organisations, e.g. the Eurosceptic Global Britain, have gathered similar "hard evidence" of BBC bias. There are, however, no mechanisms for licence payers to hold the BBC to account. There should be an independent organisation, e.g. Ofcom, to ensure that the BBC complies with the terms of its Charter. With Lord Patten (former EU Commissioner) as Chairman of the BBC Trust, there is no hope of change. The BBC will continue to be run by the public school and Oxbridge educated Guardianistas.

[Jaggernaut]

^ Of course we get it too with their pro- sevco and smeltic bias ahead of every other team in Scotland. Can't say that I see that changing even in an independent Scotland, but we can live in hope.

[kni]

Barroso says that Scotland will have to apply for EU membership.

 

"In case there is a new country, a new state, coming out of a current member state it will have to apply.

 

"And - is very important - accession to the European Union will have to be approved by all other member states of the European Union.

 

"Of course it will be extremely difficult to get the approval of all the other member states to have a new member coming from one member state... I believe it's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries getting the agreement of the others."

 

The Conservatives, Lib Dem and Labour have ruled out a currency union. Barroso says clearly that there is little chance of Scotland being admitted to the EU and, therefore, joining the Euro zone. Spain will veto Scotland's application as a means of fighting the Catalan independence movement.

 

An independent Scotland will therefore have to be an non-EU country with its own currency. Salmond and Sturgeon can't continue to evade the issues by telling the UK Government and the Commission that they are wrong. They must come up with a credible alternative plan soon or lose the little credibility that they have left.

Edited February 16, 2014 by kni