One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.

[Jaggernaut]

Nei

Christsake! You're losing the poll by a considerable margin, so now want to bump up your failing votes in another language??!! Funny, if not so tragic. But it does raise a good point. I hope to God that the Scottish Government will organise exit polls at the referendum, as I for one do not trust Westminster on the result. Even if it becomes clear at the counting stage that the YES vote has won, I half-expect it to be announced as "No" officially. They've lied to us about everything else, so why not this?

Edited January 15, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[Gary Peebles Tackle]

It's still a 'no' from me.

 

We can't afford it. I'm convinced of that.

 

We'll end up being called The Scotland...

[Jaggernaut]

It's still a 'no' from me.

 

We can't afford it. I'm convinced of that.

 

We'll end up being called The Scotland...

So Scotland, uniquely, with already a lower standard of living than other European countries of comparable size, is uniquely too poor, in spite of all the resources that other countries don't have???

 

Project Fear is alive in at least one pub!

Edited January 15, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[Norgethistle]

So Scotland, uniquely, with already a lower standard of living than other European countries of comparable size, is uniquely too poor, in spite of all the resources that other countries don't have???

 

Project Fear is alive in at least one pub!

 

We have a higher standard of living than most of the "New" countries that have entered the Euro or had recent independance.

Its not fear, its truthful that alot of people see the white papers figures and they do not add up, plus we are now talking about adding free nursery places for 2 years to all kids, all these free things are great, but someone or something needs to pay them, and SNP is talking about dropping the TAX.

 

So in brief, we will keep the retirement age where it is, increasing the number of pensioners (more cost) It is a good idea though

It has been mentioned to increase the state pension (More cost) It is a good idea though

Keep the free education for all Scottish residents (More cost than UK) It is a good idea though

Bring in free nursery places for ALL kids for 2 years (More cost) It is a good idea though

Nationalise a loss making airport in Prestwick which needs massive funding to keep running and improve (More cost) + Europe is looking into it as potential state aid againt competion laws

Print our own passports / ID cards (More cost)

Bring in our own money (More cost)

Transfer our inherited debt at a potential higheer interest rate (More cost)

Re-arm and create a "Defence" force (More cost)

 

Maintian current tax rates or even lower them (Less income)

 

There are alot of good initiatives like free nursery places, and education and pension etc, but they all have a cost to the country, and you either have to charge for them at source or add it on to the tax bill, the white paper plans neither.

 

The books don't balance, and the only folk that have said they do is the SNP, all other parties have said they don't as have many financial organisations and experts, and this is before any UK based companies who may decide to keep their business within the UK and move it out of Scotland, of which there will be several adding to our unemployment issue.

[Guy Incognito]

 

Christsake! You're losing the poll by a considerable margin, so now want to bump up your failing votes in another language??!! Funny, if not so tragic. But it does raise a good point. I hope to God that the Scottish Government will organise exit polls at the referendum, as I for one do not trust Westminster on the result. Even if it becomes clear at the counting stage that the YES vote has won, I half-expect it to be announced as "No" officially. They've lied to us about everything else, so why not this?

 

I dunno, I think he has a point. Having nuclear submarines located 15 miles from the centre of our largest city is a small price to pay for marginally less expensive chicken breasts. It is just a pity foodbanks don't have refrigerators.

 

It's still a 'no' from me.

 

We can't afford it. I'm convinced of that.

 

We'll end up being called The Scotland...

 

In which case, please watch this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W8cKHcZn60

[Rid Skwerr]

I did watch the video and learned a lot from it.

I'm going to a family do in Berkshire next month and it's given me some ammunition when the inevitable "too wee, too poor" arguments are trotted out.

 

Mentioned GERS too much for my liking, though!

[Jaggernaut]

We have a higher standard of living than most of the "New" countries that have entered the Euro or had recent independance.

 

There are alot of good initiatives like free nursery places, and education and pension etc, but they all have a cost to the country, and you either have to charge for them at source or add it on to the tax bill, the white paper plans neither.

 

The books don't balance, and the only folk that have said they do is the SNP, all other parties have said they don't as have many financial organisations and experts, and this is before any UK based companies who may decide to keep their business within the UK and move it out of Scotland, of which there will be several adding to our unemployment issue.

Norgethistle, you do realise that your beloved UK's books don't balance; in fact the UK is in debt to the tune of TRILLIONS; but all is fine and rosy in your beloved UK? The gap between rich and poor is widening at a frightening rate, in fact that is considered desirable by the ruling classes so that it's easier for them to maintain power (my opinion). This debt will never be cleared in any of our lifetimes, and probably never at all. Why are so you in love with it? Do you agree with Trident, when foodbanks throughout the UK are rising at an alarming rate? Do you agree with more wars in far-off places, paid for by our taxes and young peoples lives, when there is no direct risk to the UK from those places? Do you agree with building aircraft carriers and further increasing the national debt, to the point where they can't even put planes on them for the next decade? etc. etc. The Westminster government tells you that all is fine, but that Scotland can't go it alone, and you lap it up. Why?

[Norgethistle]

Norgethistle, you do realise that your beloved UK's books don't balance; in fact the UK is in debt to the tune of TRILLIONS; but all is fine and rosy in your beloved UK? The gap between rich and poor is widening at a frightening rate, in fact that is considered desirable by the ruling classes so that it's easier for them to maintain power (my opinion). This debt will never be cleared in any of our lifetimes, and probably never at all. Why are so you in love with it? Do you agree with Trident, when foodbanks throughout the UK are rising at an alarming rate? Do you agree with more wars in far-off places, paid for by our taxes and young peoples lives, when there is no direct risk to the UK from those places? Do you agree with building aircraft carriers and further increasing the national debt, to the point where they can't even put planes on them for the next decade? etc. etc. The Westminster government tells you that all is fine, but that Scotland can't go it alone, and you lap it up. Why?

 

The UK's books don't balance, but that is at least being attempted ti be righted through spending cuts and tax rises, but an independent SNP ran Scotland will increase spending and decrease taxes

 

Yes I do agree with defense spending as this also leads to better economy within the country, keeping jobs and cost within the country, aircraft carriers need sailors, and aircraft and pilots and maintenance etc etc, I believe you would be quite happy for us to have no army, navy or air-force

[Jaggernaut]

The UK's books don't balance, but that is at least being attempted ti be righted through spending cuts and tax rises, but an independent SNP ran Scotland will increase spending and decrease taxes

 

Yes I do agree with defense spending as this also leads to better economy within the country, keeping jobs and cost within the country, aircraft carriers need sailors, and aircraft and pilots and maintenance etc etc, I believe you would be quite happy for us to have no army, navy or air-force

Fair enough if that's your point of view. I'd just remind you that hospitals need staff at all levels, as do schools, and infrastructure projects. But let's leave these all to crumble (or in the case of the NHS, privatise it by stealth), so that vainglorious "defence" projects (Trident is defence? Don't make me laugh!)can be prioritised. Oh, and somehow the UK is uniquely capable of addressing the trillions of debt that IT caused in the first place? And either you or other project fearties is wrong, as we are constantly being lied to warned that taxes will need to rise in an independent Scotland. But no need for any central coherence in your position, I suppose. Just "no, no, no", with fingers in ears. You obviously prefer to live abroad, in a country that has spent its oil resources wisely. Ask yourself why the UK has no such oil fund, and where all the money has gone. And you want to inflict more of that on us, for evermore? Thank you (not).

Edited January 16, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[Norgethistle]

Fair enough if that's your point of view. I'd just remind you that hospitals need staff at all levels, as do schools, and infrastructure projects. But let's leave these all to crumble (or in the case of the NHS, privatise it by stealth), so that vainglorious "defence" projects (Trident is defence? Don't make me laugh!)can be prioritised. Oh, and somehow the UK is uniquely capable of addressing the trillions of debt that IT caused in the first place? And either you or other project fearties is wrong, as we are constantly being lied to warned that taxes will need to rise in an independent Scotland. But no need for any central coherence in your position, I suppose. Just "no, no, no", with fingers in ears. You obviously prefer to live abroad, in a country that has spent its oil resources wisely. Ask yourself why the UK has no such oil fund, and where all the money has gone. And you want to inflict more of that on us, for evermore? Thank you (not).

 

Taxes will need to rise through the wholee of the UK and spending will need to be cut to balance the books, thats a fact, Scotland is no different. Someone needs to pay for schools, hospitals etc and that is TAX, where is I don't agree with the new trident programme (Its way to costly for what we require post-cold war) we do need an airforce, navy and army, having these keeps the country safe, reduces unemployment and brings money into the economy (Suppliers, maintenance contracts, local areas round bases etc).

 

As for the oil fund, its becoming clear over here that althiough Norway has its fund $740 billion it also has massive debt $657 billion that has only came to light very recently since a change from left to right parliament, the country has not spent its resources wisely it has the worst road infrastructure in Europe (Spends less per year than Albania and Romania) and a culture that is becoming reliant on the state due to unbelievable employment laws (I can quit my job and claim dole money 90% of my salary almost immedietly), it has invested zero in future technologies its all about oil. And all this with 36% basic tax and 50% on OT or bonuses (I pay a basic rate of 45%) and a highly taxed consumer market, if the UK had taxeed the country to the same extent it would either have a lot of money in the bank or more likely seen a revolution and civil disorder.

 

I choose to stay here for personnel reasons and will be here till my daughter is 16, then I will re-assess my situation, as although it is a nice place to live (Very calm, scenic, safe) it is more burocratic than any of the old soviet country's under communism, out of 2,500,000 working people 625000 work for the government!!!

[Jaggernaut]

Taxes will need to rise through the wholee of the UK and spending will need to be cut to balance the books, thats a fact, Scotland is no different. Someone needs to pay for schools, hospitals etc and that is TAX, where is I don't agree with the new trident programme (Its way to costly for what we require post-cold war) we do need an airforce, navy and army, having these keeps the country safe, reduces unemployment and brings money into the economy (Suppliers, maintenance contracts, local areas round bases etc).

 

As for the oil fund, its becoming clear over here that althiough Norway has its fund $740 billion it also has massive debt $657 billion that has only came to light very recently since a change from left to right parliament, the country has not spent its resources wisely it has the worst road infrastructure in Europe (Spends less per year than Albania and Romania) and a culture that is becoming reliant on the state due to unbelievable employment laws (I can quit my job and claim dole money 90% of my salary almost immedietly), it has invested zero in future technologies its all about oil. And all this with 36% basic tax and 50% on OT or bonuses (I pay a basic rate of 45%) and a highly taxed consumer market, if the UK had taxeed the country to the same extent it would either have a lot of money in the bank or more likely seen a revolution and civil disorder.

 

I choose to stay here for personnel reasons and will be here till my daughter is 16, then I will re-assess my situation, as although it is a nice place to live (Very calm, scenic, safe) it is more burocratic than any of the old soviet country's under communism, out of 2,500,000 working people 625000 work for the government!!!

At least they're working! So you recognize that taxes will probably rise in the UK, anyway, but you used that to attack an independent Scotland a post or two earlier. And you recognize that Norway, whilst very comfortable and agreeable, is not Utopia, but that somehow also becomes a reason to deny Scots the possibility of choosing their own political and economic path (as much as that's possible in this interconnected world). You might be a left-winger, or a tory, or somewhere in the centre; whatever your political views are they can be represented in a democratic, independent Scotland. If it's not for political and/or economical reasons that you wish to deny Scotland's own place at the UN, in Europe, and on all the world stages, then it must be down to some emotional (or sentimental) lure of the UK and all that it has stood for in the past; some of which is good, but much of which is nothing to be proud of. That's also your perogative, of course. I said the past and not the future because believe me, the future for Scotland as a continued dependency of London looks grim. Edited January 16, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[Norgethistle]

At least they're working! So you recognize that taxes will probably rise in the UK, anyway, but you used that to attack an independent Scotland a post or two earlier. And you recognize that Norway, whilst very comfortable and agreeable, is not Utopia, but that somehow also becomes a reason to deny Scots the possibility of choosing their own political and economic path (as much as that's possible in this interconnected world). You might be a left-winger, or a tory, or somewhere in the centre; whatever your political views are they can be represented in a democratic, independent Scotland. If it's not for political and/or economical reasons that you wish to deny Scotland's own place at the UN, in Europe, and on all the world stages, then it must be down to some emotional (or sentimental) lure of the UK and all that it has stood for in the past; some of which is good, but much of which is nothing to be proud of. That's also your perogative, of course. I said the past and not the future because believe me, the future for Scotland as a continued dependency of London looks grim.

 

I expect taxes to rise to balance the books, the white paper and SNP are talking about freezing taxes or lowering them whilst increasing spending IT DOESN'T ADD UP

 

My reason for voting NO (And I have a vote ) is the fact that on the white paper and the propoganda from the SNP everything will be rosy, no 5/10/15 years of hardship till we get out the otherside, total work of fantasy, what we have just now may not be good, but I believe it is better than what is being offered

[Jaggernaut]

 

 

I expect taxes to rise to balance the books, the white paper and SNP are talking about freezing taxes or lowering them whilst increasing spending IT DOESN'T ADD UP

 

My reason for voting NO (And I have a vote ) is the fact that on the white paper and the propoganda from the SNP everything will be rosy, no 5/10/15 years of hardship till we get out the otherside, total work of fantasy, what we have just now may not be good, but I believe it is better than what is being offered.

 

Interesting. If the SNP came out and said that an independent Scotland was going to face 15 years of tax rises and greater hardships, would you then vote YES?

[Norgethistle]

Interesting. If the SNP came out and said that an independent Scotland was going to face 15 years of tax rises and greater hardships, would you then vote YES?

 

I would trust them more and re-evaluate my decision, at least i would know they are being truthful and with a plan, not writing fantasy and hoping the oil fairy will wash all the troubles away

[Jaggernaut]

I would trust them more and re-evaluate my decision, at least i would know they are being truthful and with a plan, not writing fantasy and hoping the oil fairy will wash all the troubles away

Politicians in false promises shocker!!!So the bitter together campaigners are being truthful. Hmm, let's think about that one.....

Edited January 17, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[Norgethistle]

Politicians in false promises shocker!!!So the bitter together campaigners are being truthful. Hmm, let's think about that one.....

 

At least they are talking about cutting spending, unlike the SNP

[Jaggernaut]

At least they are talking about cutting spending, unlike the SNP

The SNP might not even form the first government in an independent Scotland. The referendum isn't about the SNP, or Alex Salmond, or the Sturge. It's about decisions that affect Scotland and its services and place in the world being made by Scots in Scotland, not being made for us in Westminster by other people who have other overriding interests and agendas.

[Norgethistle]

 

The SNP might not even form the first government in an independent Scotland. The referendum isn't about the SNP, or Alex Salmond, or the Sturge. It's about decisions that affect Scotland and its services and place in the world being made by Scots in Scotland, not being made for us in Westminster by other people who have other overriding interests and agendas.

 

Well the white paper was written, published and promoted by the SNP

 

The push for an independence vote came from one party only the SNP

 

So if a Labour Party is elected with Labours HQ being down South will the Scottish party still be dictated by its English based HQ?

[Jaggernaut]

Well the white paper was written, published and promoted by the SNP

 

The push for an independence vote came from one party only the SNP

 

So if a Labour Party is elected with Labours HQ being down South will the Scottish party still be dictated by its English based HQ?

That would be up to the Labour party to decide. The current "Scottish" LP appears perfectly happy to take orders and diktats from down south. But somehow in an independent Scotland I don't think their supporters would continue to accept that.Yes, the SNP is responsible for us getting the chance to decide on our future. But many people who will vote YES are not even SNP voters. They understand that it's about something much more important than what political party got the whole thing going.

[Norgethistle]

I think most people who do vote YES will be SNP supporters

[kni]

The SNP might not even form the first government in an independent Scotland. The referendum isn't about the SNP, or Alex Salmond, or the Sturge. It's about decisions that affect Scotland and its services and place in the world being made by Scots in Scotland, not being made for us in Westminster by other people who have other overriding interests and agendas.

 

Not true in practice. Even if Scotland votes Yes, those key decisions will not be taken in Scotland. If Scotland keeps Sterling, the Bank of England in the City will control monetary policy, taxation and spending through a fiscal treaty. If Scotland is forced by the EU, as new entrant, to adopt the Euro, those decisions will be taken in Frankfurt.

 

Even more key decisions on economic, industrial social and trade policy will be taken in Brussels. Scotland, as a desperate new applicant, will not be in a strong position when negotiating its terms of entry. Salmond and the SNP refuse to acknowledge that an independent Scotland will need to apply for membership even though the European Commission has stated its position clearly.

 

President Barroso will under pressure, especially from Spain, to refuse the application from a secession country. The last thing the Eurocrats is for Catalonia, the richest region of Spain, to secede and use Scotland as a precedent for EU entry. There are secessionist movements in other countries

 

The EU and central banks are run by people who have overriding and agendas. Their agendas are currently driven by the political elite in Berlin and Paris and that is unlikely to change in the near future.

 

It's high time that the separatists stopped pumping out their misleading propaganda. Scotland cannot be truly independent if it joins the EU and does not have its own currency.

[Jaggernaut]

Not true in practice. Even if Scotland votes Yes, those key decisions will not be taken in Scotland. If Scotland keeps Sterling, the Bank of England in the City will control monetary policy, taxation and spending through a fiscal treaty. If Scotland is forced by the EU, as new entrant, to adopt the Euro, those decisions will be taken in Frankfurt.

 

Even more key decisions on economic, industrial social and trade policy will be taken in Brussels. Scotland, as a desperate new applicant, will not be in a strong position when negotiating its terms of entry. Salmond and the SNP refuse to acknowledge that an independent Scotland will need to apply for membership even though the European Commission has stated its position clearly.

 

President Barroso will under pressure, especially from Spain, to refuse the application from a secession country. The last thing the Eurocrats is for Catalonia, the richest region of Spain, to secede and use Scotland as a precedent for EU entry. There are secessionist movements in other countries

 

The EU and central banks are run by people who have overriding and agendas. Their agendas are currently driven by the political elite in Berlin and Paris and that is unlikely to change in the near future.

 

It's high time that the separatists stopped pumping out their misleading propaganda. Scotland cannot be truly independent if it joins the EU and does not have its own currency.

Frankly that's all scaremongering tosh. Are you seriously saying that Denmark, Belgium, Holland etc. are not "truly independent" because they are in the EU? So what about Britain, then? And why would Scotland be "desperate"? That's the kind of bitter together language that really shows who's "desperate" . What are you scared of? Decisions about Scotland's policies and priorities being made in Scotland and fully under Scottish control? Or are you saying that all those other countries in the EU don't have that?

[jaggybunnet]

Frankly that's all scaremongering tosh. Are you seriously saying that Denmark, Belgium, Holland etc. are not "truly independent" because they are in the EU? So what about Britain, then? And why would Scotland be "desperate"? That's the kind of bitter together language that really shows who's "desperate" . What are you scared of? Decisions about Scotland's policies and priorities being made in Scotland and fully under Scottish control? Or are you saying that all those other countries in the EU don't have that?

 

they are not "truly independent" as you say which was why many of those that used the euro could do nothing to stop the rot. the UK has vetoes which Scotland wouldn't.

 

the only scaremongering is from those in the yes camp who are trying to scare/bully people into voting yes when they know it wont work.

 

before you come out with the usual rubbish about Scotland couldn't be thrown out of the EU, it wouldn't be, it would have left it of its own accord by leaving the UK, just as England wales or N Ireland are not in the EU..the UK is.

[Norgethistle]

Frankly that's all scaremongering tosh. Are you seriously saying that Denmark, Belgium, Holland etc. are not "truly independent" because they are in the EU? So what about Britain, then? And why would Scotland be "desperate"? That's the kind of bitter together language that really shows who's "desperate" . What are you scared of? Decisions about Scotland's policies and priorities being made in Scotland and fully under Scottish control? Or are you saying that all those other countries in the EU don't have that?

 

Its not scaremongering its fact, as a new nation scrambling to get entry we have no clout, so we either truly go it alone, by bringing in our own currency and laws etc like Norway have or still have our economies dictated by Westminster (Who now know they do not need to try to keep us happy as they do not have elected bodies there) or we will be dictated to by Brussels, which is one of the reasons the UK keeps vetoing out of the full pact. The EU will look after the more powerful countries (France, Germany, Holland, etc) before the small boys like Scotland, or as we saw with the Greece banking carve up, this never came from Greece it came from the EU, they wanted to protect their money even though millions of Greeks were going to lose everything.

Denmark and Holland have a lot of their laws and policies implemented via the European Parliament, along with having to pay an absolute fortune for the privilege, a lot of Danes want to come out of the EU as they feel their internal power is quickly disappearing to Brussels

[amsterdam jag]

First time posting here in this topic but just wanted to ask a few questions of points raised by Norgethistle. Is it not true that the $657 billion debt you mention is total external debt ie government debt and private debt, private debt being money owed by individuals and corporations. As a %age of GDP this is 141%. Compared to the external debt of UK which stands at over $10 trillion or 406% of GDP this seems very little. Irelands external debt to GDP currently stands at over 1,000% which is astonishing.

 

Was the $657 billion not the amount which was published in an Washington Times report which conveniently forgot to mention that this amount included the private sector debt as well.

 

Norwegian public debt ie Government debt stands at approximately 30% of GDP compared to the 90% which the UK government. In both the case of external debt and public debt I would say Norway is in a far better position than the current UK government are in.

 

Re the Netherlands having a lot of laws implemented via European Parliament, this is certainly not the case. In fact the Dutch Government last year published a document in which it stated 54 key policy areas which they feel should remain exclusively in the hands of the Dutch Parliament including direct taxation, indirect taxation affecting Dutch only matters, environmental issues, criminal law amongst others. In 2012 the Financial Times actually called the Dutch "the most obstructionist country in the EU". Having lived here for 12 years I would say the Dutch are not as pro-European as is made out and have a very healthy distrust of Brussels implementing laws directly on them.