ScottyDFA Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 "It is not disrspectful to her to assert that, given her young age, if she was a member of the labour party she did not use her political accumen for very long in trying to influence its general policy or implement it." Maybe, in spite of her young age, she was smart enough to realise that the Labour Party is too rotten at its core to be rehabilitated? "Salmond and Sturgeon are not Hitler and Mussolini .... However, their willingness to seek power and authority using the fanaticism of nationalism married to the pseudo philanthropy of socialism has a disastrous historical record." Jesus H. "It all leaves me asking, social justice and "equality" or Scottish "independence", which is most important to you Mhairi? Weathercock or signpost?" If the latter has become prerequisite to the former, why insist on splitting hairs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 People often pick a party with what they think it is instead of what it actually stands for. The Labour Party manifesto was more left wing and redistributive than SNP. The SNP had no redistributive policies in their manifesto. Whenever they were asked for an example by the "biased" media they could not name one. They can behind this as they are nationalists and say they are "for Scotland" where even socialists living in England are taken in by them. It's an impressive and powerful tool they use but every time Stewart Hosie opens his mouth his economic ineptitude actually depresses me he's a deputy leader of any party. Since being in power they have benefited middle class far more than those in lower incomes. It works for me as I've got a decent salary for now, free education (thanks for paying 4 years of uni which were mostly a doss those on lower incomes funded), council tax freeze (I could pay more but don't have to), prescription and dental charges (I could pay more but don't have to). Nicola Sturgeon is paid more than David Cameron. Her husband earns more than £100k. That's a household on £250k a year prob no mortgage and no kids. Utopia! If they offer tax raises for Holyrood then that will be welcome as it contributes to an honest debate but I doubt they will bring back "Penny for Scotland" campaign. I'm the most boring middle of the road of political persuasion you can get. I just want honest debate based on numbers. Populist rhetoric will never appeal to me. The SNP anti-austerity campaign is populism with no substance. You paint a very nice picture of your economic situation, partly made by the SNP's policies, and yet all you do is slag them off? You know, if you want to pay extra for anything, you can always do so. But don't refuse to pay any extra and then slag the government for not forcing you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I'm not one of those hypocrites who say "I'd pay more tax if I could". Like everyone I want to have money to spend or save how I want. I definitely live below my means and worry about money more than I should. The argument is not about me. I work. Pay tax. Obey laws. Keep my head down and get on with it. The argument is with nationalism and the smokescreen it sends which clouds and distorts reasoned debate. The SNP and Mhairi Black say one thing and yet do the other. As a constituency MP representing all voters she has her hands tied as she is unable to criticise the party. A rule signed by every SNP politician so they become nodding dogs. I slag the Scottish government as they say one thing but act the other way and are spared the critique other administrations in other governing bodies have. So while council services are cut in areas like Maryhill and Possil due to Council Tax freeze the people who need it are hurt the SNP support has grown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I'm not one of those hypocrites who say "I'd pay more tax if I could". Like everyone I want to have money to spend or save how I want. I definitely live below my means and worry about money more than I should. The argument is not about me. I work. Pay tax. Obey laws. Keep my head down and get on with it. The argument is with nationalism and the smokescreen it sends which clouds and distorts reasoned debate. The SNP and Mhairi Black say one thing and yet do the other. As a constituency MP representing all voters she has her hands tied as she is unable to criticise the party. A rule signed by every SNP politician so they become nodding dogs. I slag the Scottish government as they say one thing but act the other way and are spared the critique other administrations in other governing bodies have. So while council services are cut in areas like Maryhill and Possil due to Council Tax freeze the people who need it are hurt the SNP support has grown. So only SNP politicians say one thing and do the other? The "nodding dogs" jibe is nonsense; you do know about the unionist party whips (not the ones that are probably in the dossier that has mysteriously disappeared down in Westminster)? SNP spared critique? Look at any newspaper any day and it's SNP blow, SNP warned, SNP criticised.... And yet the people who were hurt for generations by smug, self-centred Labour councillors and MPs are flocking to the SNP in droves. Tells you all you should need to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 @ScottyDFA "Socialism, in general, has a record of failure so blatant, that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." Thomas Sowell _________________________________ "We are socialists because we see in socialism, that is the union of all citizens, the only chance to maintain our [------**] inheritance, and to regain our political freedom and renew our [------*] state." "Because we are socialists, we have felt the deepest blessings of the nation. And, because we are nationalists, we want to promote socialist justice in a new [state*]" "As socialists we are opponents of [those people*] because we see in [those people*] the incarnation of capitalism, of the misuse of the nation's goods" "Capitalism has run its' course" Would the SNP top brass or any of its' massive party membership disagree much with these quotes? * I removed or replaced some words to distance the quotes from place. ___________________________________ If the latter is seen as a prerequisite of the fomer then that answers my question. Many do not concur with the view that social justice, "equality" and Scottish "independence" sprout from the same pore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 So only SNP politicians say one thing and do the other? The "nodding dogs" jibe is nonsense; you do know about the unionist party whips (not the ones that are probably in the dossier that has mysteriously disappeared down in Westminster)? SNP spared critique? Look at any newspaper any day and it's SNP blow, SNP warned, SNP criticised.... And yet the people who were hurt for generations by smug, self-centred Labour councillors and MPs are flocking to the SNP in droves. Tells you all you should need to know. The critique is about Mhairi Black and SNP so that's why they are mentioned. There has never been a backbench rebellion by SNP members in Scottish Parliament. SNP politicians must agree to never criticise party. No other party does that. The ruling party should be challenged by the press. Nationalisms main aim is to destroy the opposition. Their aim is to kill Labour. Delegitimise opposition parties. Dehumanise opponents. But carry on with same policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDFA Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 @CGMB 1. The utterances of a right-leaning American economist with a predilection for bombast are hardly going to suffice to dismantle my belief in socialism as a preferable social/political/economic model to unbridled capitalism. I'd be more inclined to look at something a bit more concrete for an indicator of the concept's worth - such as the heightened (relative to UK) sense social justice that prevails in the Nordic countries. 2. I don't want to respond to your really quite bizarre attempt to put the words of Nazism into the mouths of Nicola Sturgeon et al., except to say that I think you've completely grabbed the wrong end of the stick where understanding Scottish nationalism is concerned. German nationalism as promoted by the Nazis was about asserting the superiority of the German people. Scottish nationalism is surely about asserting that we are not inferior to other people - if most other nations are self-determining, why the hell aren't we? 3. If, given the complexion of UK society, independence is the only way for Scots to move towards living in a fairer society, then Scottish nationalism and the pursuit of social justice may well spring from the same pore. The fact that different people articulate their desire for independence in different ways doesn't mean that their core motives are materially different. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 You paint a very nice picture of your economic situation, partly made by the SNP's policies, and yet all you do is slag them off? You know, if you want to pay extra for anything, you can always do so. But don't refuse to pay any extra and then slag the government for not forcing you. One of the reasons I favour universalism is because everyone benefits. Wealthier people pay a bit more via taxation but they are free to reap the rewards of the same as everyone else. And being wealthier, they also have the means to pay their own way should they choose to do so, e.g. private healthcare or education. Means testing, on the other hand, is a bureaucratic minefield and often penalises people who are better off but by no means wealthy. The Scottish Government has it in its gift to raise income tax bands but doing so would be a waste of time, as, currently, if I understand correctly, any increased tax yield would result in the block grant from Westminster being cut accordingly. So only SNP politicians say one thing and do the other? The "nodding dogs" jibe is nonsense; you do know about the unionist party whips (not the ones that are probably in the dossier that has mysteriously disappeared down in Westminster)? SNP spared critique? Look at any newspaper any day and it's SNP blow, SNP warned, SNP criticised.... And yet the people who were hurt for generations by smug, self-centred Labour councillors and MPs are flocking to the SNP in droves. Tells you all you should need to know. To be fair, he has point about 'whipped' SNP MPs and MSPs. However, you could argue that a strict whip system is necessary to keep in line a party whose representatives often hold quite divergent political views outwith Scottish independence. It has taken the SNP a long time to get where they are today; they aren't going to want to risk another 79 Group fiasco. At this point in time it looks like the left and right of Labour who are intent on eating each other. To the SNP's credit, they barely mentioned the constitution during the election. Their opponents, on the other hand, apparently couldn't shut up about it: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/what-do-scotlands-parties-really-care-about.1436723513 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 National attitude surveys? A few hundred (or a couple of thousand at best) respondents? We have a thoroughly comprehensive national attitude survey every five years called the General Election. How do the right-leaning Conservative Party do in those in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK? Relative to rUK, Scotland is most certainly a left-leaning country... This would seem to back that up: https://commonspace.scot/articles/1876/poll-shows-nearly-two-thirds-of-scots-are-against-welfare-cuts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 3. If, given the complexion of UK society, independence is the only way for Scots to move towards living in a fairer society, then Scottish nationalism and the pursuit of social justice may well spring from the same pore. The fact that different people articulate their desire for independence in different ways doesn't mean that their core motives are materially different. How would going independent lead to a fairer society? Our Scottish government has vetoed a living wage, has mentioned dropping corporation tax, 2 things that affect top and bottom of society (in wages). A socialist society generally pays more in tax, to fund the social system, yet Scotland has frozen the council tax, refused to alter income tax and all at the detriment to local services Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) @CGMB 1. The utterances of a right-leaning American economist with a predilection for bombast are hardly going to suffice to dismantle my belief in socialism as a preferable social/political/economic model to unbridled capitalism. I'd be more inclined to look at something a bit more concrete for an indicator of the concept's worth - such as the heightened (relative to UK) sense social justice that prevails in the Nordic countries. 2. I don't want to respond to your really quite bizarre attempt to put the words of Nazism into the mouths of Nicola Sturgeon et al., except to say that I think you've completely grabbed the wrong end of the stick where understanding Scottish nationalism is concerned. German nationalism as promoted by the Nazis was about asserting the superiority of the German people. Scottish nationalism is surely about asserting that we are not inferior to other people - if most other nations are self-determining, why the hell aren't we? 3. If, given the complexion of UK society, independence is the only way for Scots to move towards living in a fairer society, then Scottish nationalism and the pursuit of social justice may well spring from the same pore. The fact that different people articulate their desire for independence in different ways doesn't mean that their core motives are materially different. Thomas Sowell has studied, graduated and worked at several acclaimed and varied U.S. universities such as Harvard, UCLA, Columbia, Chicago and Stanford . Prior to studying and working at such esteemed establishments he was the fifth child of his housemaid mother, lost his father early and was adopted by his aunt. First in his family to achieve anything more than a primary education, passing entrance exams to a highly competitive state run school, he had to abandon his studies prematurely for financial and personal reasons. After working several jobs to help keep the wolf from the door, he was drafted, serving in the Korean war as a Marine. On discharge from national service he resumed his education, and early writings, including published papers, reveal a sympathetic view of marxism and praise for socialist principles. To suggest such a man's words might be dismissed as pretentious, even if you disagree with his point of view, is a little unfair. However, I did not quote him to change your mind. It was intended as further compliment to Mhairi Black and in agreement with your earlier statement, "Maybe, in spite of her young age, she was smart enough to realise that the Labour Party is too rotten at its core to be rehabilitated?" Presenting anonymous quotes and asking a question if one might be in agreement is not placing words in peoples mouths. In asking if one might think the SNP would concur with the statements it clearly distances them from the quotes themselves. I did not attribute the words to anyone, and anyone who reads them can answer the question I posed for themselves. I made no statement of record or accusation of thought, I asked a question. The Nazi's did not refer to themselves as such. "Nazi" was created as a derogatory term. German nationalism was embraced by several parties. The form of nationalism The National Socialist German Workers' Party promoted grew out of the german revolution at the end of WW1, resentment to the terms of the Treaty of Versaille, and the Wiemar Republic's alleged acceptence of Germany being restrained or inferior to other nations. I said earlier, "Salmond and Sturgeon are not Hitler and Mussolini". I'm quite clear on that. However, The serious question hanging over any form of nationalism is not whether it is used to assert superiority or assert non-inferiority. It is what do you mean by "we"? ... "One Scotland", I'm not buying it. The only one thing holding the SNP together is "independence". If you keep using "if" at the start of sentances, I'll assume you agree there is some doubt and room for debate. I did not say they could not "sprout from the same pore". I stated that many believe they need not. How different people articulate thier desire for "independence" is irrelevant to the issue i'm raising. Is it a belief that whatever happens in the UK politically/socially/economically things would be better in an "independent" Scotland? The frequent answer is "no.... but at least we would be responsible. We would have control of our own country" .... Again... I gotta ask... what do you mean "we"? I am the 55%. Edited July 13, 2015 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 How would going independent lead to a fairer society? Our Scottish government has vetoed a living wage, has mentioned dropping corporation tax, 2 things that affect top and bottom of society (in wages). A socialist society generally pays more in tax, to fund the social system, yet Scotland has frozen the council tax, refused to alter income tax and all at the detriment to local services Simple: we vote for a party who support the introduction of a living wage and progressive taxation and doesn't favour a reduction in corporation tax, amongst other things. And if we don't, then hell mend us. But even then, at least we would have chosen our government for ourselves and we could democratically remove them if they pissed us off. Right away, then, our society is fairer. Ignoring the fact that the SG, currently led by the SNP (although there is an election next year), has not 'vetoed' a living wage (it couldn't even if it wanted to; it has no control over setting the rate of the minimum wage and the 'living wage' cannot be legally enforced) as well as the arguable point that it favours a reduction in corporation tax, I don't think anyone in the pro-independence camp is suggesting that Scotland should be a one party state, are they? Incidentally, all I think Scotty was meaning was that national self-determination and social justice are not mutually exclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Simple: we vote for a party who support the introduction of a living wage and progressive taxation and doesn't favour a reduction in corporation tax, amongst other things. And if we don't, then hell mend us. But even then, at least we would have chosen our government for ourselves and we could democratically remove them if they pissed us off. Right away, then, our society is fairer. Ignoring the fact that the SG, currently led by the SNP (although there is an election next year), has not 'vetoed' a living wage (it couldn't even if it wanted to; it has no control over setting the rate of the minimum wage and the 'living wage' cannot be legally enforced) as well as the arguable point that it favours a reduction in corporation tax, I don't think anyone in the pro-independence camp is suggesting that Scotland should be a one party state, are they? Incidentally, all I think Scotty was meaning was that national self-determination and social justice are not mutually exclusive. Vetoed was maybe the wrong word "voted against" is better http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27386503 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 (edited) Vetoed was maybe the wrong word "voted against" is better http://www.bbc.com/n...litics-27386503 Michel Barnier? "We" didn't vote for him ! WTF!!! ... SNP - sycophantic unionist bigots!!! ... Independence now!!! Edited July 14, 2015 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Vetoed was maybe the wrong word "voted against" is better http://www.bbc.com/n...litics-27386503 My reading of that is that the SG will take a dim view of any employer hoping to do business with them who does not pay its employees the living wage. It isn't as if they are diametrically opposed to the idea; to their credit they have enforced it amongst their own staff: http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-government-becomes-living-wage-employer-1-3790913 I don't know if the EU rule thing is true. If it is, then Labour including that amendment looks a lot like politicking to make the government look bad. If, on the other hand, it is true, then it weakens the SNP's own pro-EU stance somewhat. It is a pretty poor state of affairs, either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 For anyone who is interested, Mhairi Black made her maiden speech today: http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/aa555458-25d4-4125-96ca-c4c9f834cd4c?in=15:06:05&out=15:14:39 Seemingly it has gone down a storm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 (edited) For anyone who is interested, Mhairi Black made her maiden speech today: http://parliamentliv...05&out=15:14:39 Seemingly it has gone down a storm. I refer the honourable lady to the statement I gave some two days ago. Edited July 14, 2015 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 I refer the honourable lady to the statement I gave some two days ago. It seems like it has very well received across the spectrum, except perhaps by those who are bitter about the SNP's success, or the Scottish cringers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 For anyone who is interested, Mhairi Black made her maiden speech today: http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/aa555458-25d4-4125-96ca-c4c9f834cd4c?in=15:06:05&out=15:14:39 Seemingly it has gone down a storm. An absolutely brilliant speech, in my opinion. And from one so young! If we, as Scots, can't demonstrate pride in this young lassie, then we really are in a poor state of affairs. There is plenty to admire in this, MB's maiden Commons speech, for both socialists and, I would say, non socialists. The speech was delivered with power, articulation, sincerity and oozed great passion of the subject matter. With donkeys like Mhairi's constituency predecessor, Alexander, and his burnt out cabal of dead beat narcissisists, Scotland had been flogging a dead horse looking to Labour for inspiration and change; the emergence of someone like Mhairi Black, however, must give us pride and hope, surely, that Scotland's thoroughly justified revulsion of the Tories may result in a positive one day in the not too distant future. Proud to be Scottish, and proud to be a socialist. I just wish some folks could be slightly less negative about Scotland and its proud tradition of standing up against political injustice. Just how I see the world. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 For anyone who is interested, Mhairi Black made her maiden speech today: http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/aa555458-25d4-4125-96ca-c4c9f834cd4c?in=15:06:05&out=15:14:39 Seemingly it has gone down a storm. An absolutely brilliant first speech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 For anyone who is interested, Mhairi Black made her maiden speech today: http://parliamentliv...05&out=15:14:39 Seemingly it has gone down a storm. tremendous speech. shame there were so few labour and tory mps there to hear it, mhairi will no doubt have plenty other opportunities to shame them and put metaphorical rockets up their jackseys. wee braveheart she is, scotland can be proud to have her as one of its own. also, nice to see wee eck pop into the chamber to catch the last minute of her maiden speech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 It seems like it has very well received across the spectrum, except perhaps by those who are bitter about the SNP's success, or the Scottish cringers. The seethe is indeed very amusing, if quite pathetic. Quite a lot of English Labour people have applauded the speech though, as if to say 'look, this is what we should be saying'. An absolutely brilliant speech, in my opinion. And from one so young! If we, as Scots, can't demonstrate pride in this young lassie, then we really are in a poor state of affairs. There is plenty to admire in this, MB's maiden Commons speech, for both socialists and, I would say, non socialists. The speech was delivered with power, articulation, sincerity and oozed great passion of the subject matter. With donkeys like Mhairi's constituency predecessor, Alexander, and his burnt out cabal of dead beat narcissisists, Scotland had been flogging a dead horse looking to Labour for inspiration and change; the emergence of someone like Mhairi Black, however, must give us pride and hope, surely, that Scotland's thoroughly justified revulsion of the Tories may result in a positive one day in the not too distant future. Proud to be Scottish, and proud to be a socialist. I just wish some folks could be slightly less negative about Scotland and its proud tradition of standing up against political injustice. Just how I see the world. Absolutely. She sounds like a young woman who is in politics for the right reason - because she actually believes in something. We can agree or disagree with what it is she believes in, but if there were a few more conviction politicians and few less careerists (or 'signposts and weathercocks', as Tony Benn once put it) then the world of politics would be all the better for it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 It seems like it has very well received across the spectrum, except perhaps by those who are bitter about the SNP's success, or the Scottish cringers. Yeah.... She spoke very well, with passion and clear expression. She raised some very concerning and pertinent issues. Perhaps, those that are not so ready to heap praise on the "young lassie" or hail her a "wee braveheart" are more cringing at the SNP's success at presenting themselves as some kind of New-Old Labour Party, "progressives" with a keen interest in corporatism and central planning, and bitter that those who disagree with their policies or point out their flaws or potential impraciticalness, are apparently fair game for accusations of holding a general embarrassment or distain for the place they live, work, grew up in, their neighbours, friends, colleagues and ancestors. Soar mo cho-chreutairean Albannach. The SNP could, but do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 The seethe is indeed very amusing, if quite pathetic. Quite a lot of English Labour people have applauded the speech though, as if to say 'look, this is what we should be saying'. Absolutely. She sounds like a young woman who is in politics for the right reason - because she actually believes in something. We can agree or disagree with what it is she believes in, but if there were a few more conviction politicians and few less careerists (or 'signposts and weathercocks', as Tony Benn once put it) then the world of politics would be all the better for it. I hope she's fully read on Mr. Benn's view of the European Union. "Later in his diary (25 October 1977) Benn wrote that he "loathed" the EEC; he claimed it was "bureaucratic and centralised" and "of course it is really dominated by Germany. All the Common Market countries except the UK have been occupied by Germany, and they have this mixed feeling of hatred and subservience towards the Germans"." - from wikipedia. I trust she might consider his thoughts on the European project and use her admirable speaking talent to influence her party's position on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 thoughts i don't live in paisley (the writer does) so don't know how true his remarks are? http://www.capx.co/the-big-problem-with-mhairi-blacks-maiden-speech/ Before anyone jumps on, i thought she spoke very well, no i don't agree with all she says but that is life. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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