Financial worries

[sandy]

16 minutes ago, javeajag said:

1. You might know there is money that is come from 3BC but until evidence is presented is not a fact merely conjecture 

2. you don’t know if we are running an operating deficit unless you have some evidence ?

3. you also don’t know if there will be any further support from 3BC after fan ownership ?

easily proved by producing supporting documentation 

The document that confirms the £500k input has been published elsewhere. It is not conjecture.
 

Point 2 follows as without that subsidy we’d have run at a loss. 
 

The 3BC account has been run down and has virtually nothing left. 
 

You seem rather blind when presented with evidence & facts. Simply because it doesn’t suit your ‘we are debt free’ narrative. 
 

If the Club is handed over in its current state, fan ownership will be taking on liabilities; an operating deficit, pitch re-work, stand maintenance etc.

Edited March 22, 2022 by sandy

[Yellow & Redneck]

Although I will forever be appreciative of Colin Weir for his gift to the club - maybe it would have been prudent to investigate whether there was ever an appetite for fan ownership prior to heading down that road. It does seem as if this idea has almost been forced on us under the assumption that fan ownership "is good for its own sake." 

I think is very clear that there is little appetite for it. I don't believe TJF has done enough to convince fans of the benefits of fan ownership - and despite good intention, I do not think there has been the transparency needed to make it viable. It does very much seem like I've signed up to a charity who Direct Debit my account every month. 

Unfortunately, the only clear way to force action is a mass cancellation of Direct Debit subscriptions until such a point where those hard questions are answered. I am unsure as to the impact of this, but the alternative of careening down the same road with no discernible destination seems equally as bad. 

The biggest issue is mobilising fans to ask these important questions en masse. All very good grumbling about it on a forum (and I count myself guilty of that too), but it won't do us much good. 

[javeajag]

25 minutes ago, sandy said:

The document that confirms the £500k input has been published elsewhere. It is not conjecture.
 

Point 2 follows as without that subsidy we’d have run at a loss. 
 

The 3BC account has been run down and has virtually nothing left. 
 

You seem rather blind when presented with evidence & facts. Simply because it doesn’t suit your ‘we are debt free’ narrative. 
 

If the Club is handed over in its current state, fan ownership will be taking on liabilities; an operating deficit, pitch re-work, stand maintenance etc.

If the £500 has been shown to come from a specific source then show it ….it has not been ( though it’s not an unreasonable joining of dots but it could still be wrong )

Based on some assumptions as yet unproven and you also don’t know where  the funds if they came to the club went , it could also be the case on monthly basis we were balancing the books 
 

there was at last point of disclosure £300k in the 3BC accounts if you know there won’t be anymore funds to the club ( and there may not be ) then present the source 

too much conjecture and speculation presented as facts 

[javeajag]

18 minutes ago, Yellow & Redneck said:

Although I will forever be appreciative of Colin Weir for his gift to the club - maybe it would have been prudent to investigate whether there was ever an appetite for fan ownership prior to heading down that road. It does seem as if this idea has almost been forced on us under the assumption that fan ownership "is good for its own sake." 

I think is very clear that there is little appetite for it. I don't believe TJF has done enough to convince fans of the benefits of fan ownership - and despite good intention, I do not think there has been the transparency needed to make it viable. It does very much seem like I've signed up to a charity who Direct Debit my account every month. 

Unfortunately, the only clear way to force action is a mass cancellation of Direct Debit subscriptions until such a point where those hard questions are answered. I am unsure as to the impact of this, but the alternative of careening down the same road with no discernible destination seems equally as bad. 

The biggest issue is mobilising fans to ask these important questions en masse. All very good grumbling about it on a forum (and I count myself guilty of that too), but it won't do us much good. 

There is clearly some appetite for fan ownership amongst the fan base…..how big that is I’m not sure anyone knows

the problem is we are where we are unless I win euro millions tonight ……

[Junior]

44 minutes ago, sandy said:

The document that confirms the £500k input has been published elsewhere. It is not conjecture.
 

Point 2 follows as without that subsidy we’d have run at a loss. 
 

The 3BC account has been run down and has virtually nothing left. 
 

You seem rather blind when presented with evidence & facts. Simply because it doesn’t suit your ‘we are debt free’ narrative. 
 

If the Club is handed over in its current state, fan ownership will be taking on liabilities; an operating deficit, pitch re-work, stand maintenance etc.

Where is this document ? You cannot state that then not provide the proof. 

 

[eljaggo]

49 minutes ago, Yellow & Redneck said:

Although I will forever be appreciative of Colin Weir for his gift to the club - maybe it would have been prudent to investigate whether there was ever an appetite for fan ownership prior to heading down that road. It does seem as if this idea has almost been forced on us under the assumption that fan ownership "is good for its own sake." 

I think is very clear that there is little appetite for it. I don't believe TJF has done enough to convince fans of the benefits of fan ownership - and despite good intention, I do not think there has been the transparency needed to make it viable. It does very much seem like I've signed up to a charity who Direct Debit my account every month. 

Unfortunately, the only clear way to force action is a mass cancellation of Direct Debit subscriptions until such a point where those hard questions are answered. I am unsure as to the impact of this, but the alternative of careening down the same road with no discernible destination seems equally as bad. 

The biggest issue is mobilising fans to ask these important questions en masse. All very good grumbling about it on a forum (and I count myself guilty of that too), but it won't do us much good. 

I think the appetite for fan ownership sprang from the fact that the fans owned a huge proportion of the shares but had no one at all on the board of directors.  If there had been even 2 or 3 fan chosen directors, that would have settled things.  Fan ownership demands are possibly therefore an over-reaction.  From Low's perspective, and that of her appointees, even a single independently appoined fan director has the votes to control the Board.   Low has therefore tried to manipulate the fan apppointments to the Board to retain control.  

The big problem associated with fan ownership is the raising of capital to fund stadium maintenance and other large investments.   The situation is complicated by dual ownership of the ground, but perhaps the owners of the main stand and the bing might make better partners for a fan owned club than Three Black Cats.  It might make raising funds a bit easier.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by eljaggo

[sandy]

23 minutes ago, Junior said:

Where is this document ? You cannot state that then not provide the proof. 

 

The relevant doc was posted on P&B. It’s an extract from 3BC accounts to May 2021, showing a £500k contribution to a subsidiary. They only have the Club as a subsidiary. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by sandy
Added doc

[javeajag]

7 minutes ago, sandy said:

The relevant doc was posted on P&B

Ok here is the ‘document ‘ posted on p and b……now explain these to us …..

[sandy]

I’ve provided the evidence you asked for, you can argue against a 3BC subsidy to the Club all you want. But the facts are there @javeajag

[Norgethistle]

3 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

We have been spending over £700k more than we were bringing in (without handouts) over last 2 sets of accounts. That is my issue.

And as you are so keen on the £2 million turnover, frankly that level of over spend as a percentage of turnover is appalling 

 

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

Look I get sent the accounts …..your the one that stated it was £700k

Try also reading posts 

[javeajag]

2 minutes ago, sandy said:

I’ve provided the evidence you asked for, you can argue against a 3BC subsidy to the Club all you want. But the facts are there @javeajag

Except they are not there…..they can be conjectured to be there but it is not clear 

[javeajag]

Just now, Norgethistle said:

 

Try also reading posts 

Like when you said it was a loan ?

[Junior]

24 minutes ago, sandy said:

The relevant doc was posted on P&B. It’s an extract from 3BC accounts to May 2021, showing a £500k contribution to a subsidiary. They only have the Club as a subsidiary. 

 

Thanks Sandy, worrying indeed

[sandy]

1 minute ago, Junior said:

Thanks Sandy, worrying indeed

It’s not good news I agree @Junior- if the Club can only break even with 3BC support, we have issues ahead.

[javeajag]

2 minutes ago, sandy said:

It’s not good news I agree @Junior- if the Club can only break even with 3BC support, we have issues ahead.

Glad you used ‘if’ since we don’t actually know 

[Norgethistle]

7 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Glad you used ‘if’ since we don’t actually know 

Well without the £500k they wouldn’t have broken even. So there is no if 

[sandy]

14 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Well without the £500k they wouldn’t have broken even. So there is no if 

Agreed 

[javeajag]

16 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Well without the £500k they wouldn’t have broken even. So there is no if 

So now we needed £500k to break even on a turnover of £2.2m in the last financial year  which is a huge deficit, and as we can’t cut £500k out of the cost base the club must be just about insolvent …..

[Norgethistle]

11 minutes ago, javeajag said:

So now we needed £500k to break even on a turnover of £2.2m in the last financial year  which is a huge deficit, and as we can’t cut £500k out of the cost base the club must be just about insolvent …..

Somehow you need to cut costs by 10% and increase revenue by 10%, insolvent currently not, insecure yes.

The Jags Foundation have been asked directly by several persons about this £500k appearing in clubs accounts but removing from 3BC and have stated they would enquire into it and feedback. 
Nearly 3 weeks later and not a response to any who have asked,, this is one of many reasons why proper Independent due diligence is needed.

[sandy]

Interesting to note that none of the current PTFC Directors appear to have the Director of Finance portfolio. So who makes the money recommendations? The Chair in her role as 3BC?

[Norgethistle]

7 hours ago, Yellow & Redneck said:

Although I will forever be appreciative of Colin Weir for his gift to the club - maybe it would have been prudent to investigate whether there was ever an appetite for fan ownership prior to heading down that road. It does seem as if this idea has almost been forced on us under the assumption that fan ownership "is good for its own sake." 

I think is very clear that there is little appetite for it. I don't believe TJF has done enough to convince fans of the benefits of fan ownership - and despite good intention, I do not think there has been the transparency needed to make it viable. It does very much seem like I've signed up to a charity who Direct Debit my account every month. 

Unfortunately, the only clear way to force action is a mass cancellation of Direct Debit subscriptions until such a point where those hard questions are answered. I am unsure as to the impact of this, but the alternative of careening down the same road with no discernible destination seems equally as bad. 

The biggest issue is mobilising fans to ask these important questions en masse. All very good grumbling about it on a forum (and I count myself guilty of that too), but it won't do us much good. 

I will be canceling on Friday and asking for a full refund unless I get answers to my questions 

[The Ghost]

23 hours ago, javeajag said:

Pretty weak response tbh……routine and preventative maintenance isn’t going to fix the bing or main stand , they require a level of investment a company our size doesn’t have 

It's important in a journey like a move towards fan ownership that people are open-minded and willing to change their position rather than become entrenched. 

It's impressive to see javeajag making the case for professional independent due diligence here despite arguing against it for so long and doing so in such a concise way. 

Two serious observations - firstly, if any individual at the club has been pushing TJF back and dictating to the fans as to how the process of transition to fan ownership works, it's long overdue that they are outed and questions asked as to their conduct and motivation. Secondly, if you're still on TJF's Board and you're allowing fan ownership to fall apart because you don't have the guts to make a public stand against individuals dictating terms, then you're going to have to accept responsibility for this failing. 

[jaf]

14 hours ago, sandy said:

Thanks @jaf, I would be interested to see the financial analysis you have done. 

PM’d  you with the info I sent to tjf. 

[sandy]

5 minutes ago, jaf said:

PM’d  you with the info I sent to tjf. 

Cheers 

[Yellow & Redneck]

11 hours ago, jaf said:

PM’d  you with the info I sent to tjf. 

Don't mean to be a pain Jaf. Was wondering if I could have a wee look at the analysis you've done. Have a friend who worked accounts for a sports club (not football related), so would be interested.