MWM Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 (edited) Really annoyed today as yet more clubs who have operated well outwith their means have enjoyable days. Dunfermline and their 30 man squad and ignored debt of 11 million, gets them promoted. Livingston and their full-time team celebrate their trophy day in front of only 1500 punters, while a director covers a 900k hole in the club finances. Dundee fail to pay off the dozens of people they owe money to, somehow weasel their way out of administration and get a huge crowd and a ton of momentum for next season. Nevermind past incidents such as Motherwell making near enough every member of staff at the club redundant a few years ago and getting away without paying them a penny. We on the otherhand, scrape by without a pot to piss in and a bleak looking future, at the same time any extra money that comes into the club goes to keeping the bank at bay. Its a shite state of affairs. Maybe we should apply for a 10 million quid Wonga loan. No one else seems to pay the parties they owe, I'm sure we would get away with it... Edited April 30, 2011 by MWM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig-W Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 Hell, why not? If anyone's daft enough to lend us the money. It's all completely meaningless anyway. If we based our society on a system on cheeseburgers and fellatio we couldn't be any worse off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewanstu Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 It depends on who loans us the money if its a friendly loan from a life-long fan then its meaningless, which im pretty sure is the situation at Dunfermline. But if whoever is owed the 11 million quid wanted it back any-time soon the club would fold. No club in Scotland could survive having to pay 11 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 You could argue that Dunfermline should have trimmed their squad and cut their wage bill accordingly. That "saved" money could have gone towards lowering the £11m debt. Only thing is the folk that are owed the £11m don't appear to want it back. I might be viewing their situation in an over simplified maybe naive manner but perhaps those guys due the £11m are as happy as Larry tonight and wouldn't want it any other way. Dundee on the other hand are just out and out feckin' cheats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin energy Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 You could argue that Dunfermline should have trimmed their squad and cut their wage bill accordingly. That "saved" money could have gone towards lowering the £11m debt. Only thing is the folk that are owed the £11m don't appear to want it back. I might be viewing their situation in an over simplified maybe naive manner but perhaps those guys due the £11m are as happy as Larry tonight and wouldn't want it any other way. Dundee on the other hand are just out and out feckin' cheats. I'm sure i remember the SFL saying if dundee was in adminstration by 31 march then they woudl receive more punishment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix1876 Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 I'm sure i remember the SFL saying if dundee was in adminstration by 31 march then they woudl receive more punishment aye yer right there laddie as they see it fit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 I'm sure i remember the SFL saying if dundee was in adminstration by 31 march then they woudl receive more punishment You are assuming that "as it sees fit" means a further penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapiti Jag Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 The 'further penalty' part was quashed at the SFA appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fredthecheesecloth Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 some people have short memories. remember save the jags? 40p in the £1 is a lot better than 6p but its still the same principle. relegated from the premier league, spent the parachute on 'big' players like lyons, farrell, evans, maskrey to get us back up. sounds faimilar to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 some people have short memories. remember save the jags? 40p in the £1 is a lot better than 6p but its still the same principle. relegated from the premier league, spent the parachute on 'big' players like lyons, farrell, evans, maskrey to get us back up. sounds faimilar to me. In practical terms and on a relative basis paying out 40p in the £ isn't likely to impact on suppliers and service providers too dramatically. Paying 6p in the £ is and will have put small businesses in jeopardy and cost jobs. You're correct about the principle to a point but as I remember we paid out as much as we could. All evidence with Dundee points to them paying out as little as possible. I can see tho' the general point you're making and us getting into that situation in the first place was every bit as bad as Dundee FC. I think tho' we came out of it with our heads, if not exactly held high, certainly not bowed in shame, whilst Dundee this time round have no dignity left whatsoever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) Agree with you LIB. We didn't deliberately play fast and loose ... it was more naivity and lack of foresight than deliberately over-spending because we knew we had a get-out-of-jail-free card (as was the case with Dundee). After Save the Jags we struggled for a good number of years, indeed we could have, if luck had went the other way, gone out of business. So our situation certainly was not a case of "getting away with it". Dundee have not only cleared their debt via administration, they're still a strong club who'll probably outspend us next season. And isn't this about the third time they've been in adminsitration? Edited May 1, 2011 by Mr Bunny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberteeb Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Agree with you LIB. We didn't deliberately play fast and loose ... it was more naivity and lack of foresight than deliberately over-spending because we knew we had a get-out-of-jail-free card (as was the case with Dundee). After Save the Jags we struggled for a good number of years, indeed we could have, if luck had went the other way, gone out of business. So our situation certainly was not a case of "getting away with it". Dundee have not only cleared their debt via administration, they're still a strong club who'll probably outspend us next season. And isn't this about the third time they've been in adminsitration? And they have every right to. They have a clean financial slate now and their crowds over double ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) And they have every right to. They have a clean financial slate now and their crowds over double ours. Can't agree with you there. Nobody has the right (or at least should have the right) to rip off suppliers and service providers in the way they did. The very fact that they have crowds over double ours and thus could've directed more funds towards their debt only makes the situation even more despicable. As I read it they could now sell Harkins for instance for a sizeable amount and keep the lion share of the proceeds for themselves or alternatively retain his services and pay him a wage with money that morally should have been directed towards debtors that in turn may just have kept some company afloat or some punter in employment. Their punishment this season should have been an arbitrary points deduction, a ban from signing players plus a ban on promotion. Their real penalty should only now be being assessed. The very fact they decided to pay only 6p in the £ when by selling players or by making other obvious cut backs they could've paid their creditors more, should be taken into consideration. If common sense and decency prevailed within the SFL Dundee should be starting next season with a points deduction. If Dundee FC go on and win the league next season by effectively milking the system this season it'll just be a further nail in the coffin of Scottish football. I'd still I suppose be a Jags supporter if we did something similar but I would no longer be a season ticket holder or even a regular attender. Apologies if all this sounds sanctimonious but tho' I could maybe regularly support a team that buys success I could never support one that cheats and buys success. Edited May 1, 2011 by lady-isobel-barnett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin energy Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Can't agree with you there. Nobody has the right (or at least should have the right) to rip off suppliers and service providers in the way they did. The very fact that they have crowds over double ours and thus could've directed more funds towards their debt only makes the situation even more despicable. As I read it they could now sell Harkins for instance for a sizeable amount and keep the lion share of the proceeds for themselves or alternatively retain his services and pay him a wage with money that morally should have been directed towards debtors that in turn may just have kept some company afloat or some punter in employment. Their punishment this season should have been an arbitrary points deduction, a ban from signing players plus a ban on promotion. Their real penalty should only now be being assessed. The very fact they decided to pay only 6p in the £ when by selling players or by making other obvious cut backs they could've paid their creditors more, should be taken into consideration. If common sense and decency prevailed within the SFL Dundee should be starting next season with a points deduction. If Dundee FC go on and win the league next season by effectively milking the system this season it'll just be a further nail in the coffin of Scottish football. I'd still I suppose be a Jags supporter if we did something similar but I would no longer be a season ticket holder or even a regular attender. Apologies if all this sounds sanctimonious but tho' I could maybe regularly support a team that buys success I could never support one that cheats and buys success. Well Said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Willjag Posted May 1, 2011 Members Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 I reckon Harkins will be allowed to leave in the close season for free (or very cheap), allowing him to keep any potential fee that Dundee would have got for him in lieu of the cash they owe him and at the same time robbing us of any further sell on fee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Murray Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 I would say Dundee will be favorites to go up next year. So cheating really does work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianlucatoni Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Can't agree with you there. Nobody has the right (or at least should have the right) to rip off suppliers and service providers in the way they did. The very fact that they have crowds over double ours and thus could've directed more funds towards their debt only makes the situation even more despicable. As I read it they could now sell Harkins for instance for a sizeable amount and keep the lion share of the proceeds for themselves or alternatively retain his services and pay him a wage with money that morally should have been directed towards debtors that in turn may just have kept some company afloat or some punter in employment. Their punishment this season should have been an arbitrary points deduction, a ban from signing players plus a ban on promotion. Their real penalty should only now be being assessed. The very fact they decided to pay only 6p in the £ when by selling players or by making other obvious cut backs they could've paid their creditors more, should be taken into consideration. If common sense and decency prevailed within the SFL Dundee should be starting next season with a points deduction. If Dundee FC go on and win the league next season by effectively milking the system this season it'll just be a further nail in the coffin of Scottish football. I'd still I suppose be a Jags supporter if we did something similar but I would no longer be a season ticket holder or even a regular attender. Apologies if all this sounds sanctimonious but tho' I could maybe regularly support a team that buys success I could never support one that cheats and buys success. what he said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted May 2, 2011 Report Share Posted May 2, 2011 Can't agree with you there. Nobody has the right (or at least should have the right) to rip off suppliers and service providers in the way they did. The very fact that they have crowds over double ours and thus could've directed more funds towards their debt only makes the situation even more despicable. As I read it they could now sell Harkins for instance for a sizeable amount and keep the lion share of the proceeds for themselves or alternatively retain his services and pay him a wage with money that morally should have been directed towards debtors that in turn may just have kept some company afloat or some punter in employment. Their punishment this season should have been an arbitrary points deduction, a ban from signing players plus a ban on promotion. Their real penalty should only now be being assessed. The very fact they decided to pay only 6p in the £ when by selling players or by making other obvious cut backs they could've paid their creditors more, should be taken into consideration. If common sense and decency prevailed within the SFL Dundee should be starting next season with a points deduction. If Dundee FC go on and win the league next season by effectively milking the system this season it'll just be a further nail in the coffin of Scottish football. I'd still I suppose be a Jags supporter if we did something similar but I would no longer be a season ticket holder or even a regular attender. Apologies if all this sounds sanctimonious but tho' I could maybe regularly support a team that buys success I could never support one that cheats and buys success. The problem is that you are confusing the failings of the previous owners with the situation the current owners have. The previous owners may have ripped off suppliers, but legally, that has now been resolved. The current owners are allowed to make a fresh start, no debts and big crowds. Not fair I know, but that is how the system works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Posted May 2, 2011 Report Share Posted May 2, 2011 The problem is that you are confusing the failings of the previous owners with the situation the current owners have. The previous owners may have ripped off suppliers, but legally, that has now been resolved. The current owners are allowed to make a fresh start, no debts and big crowds. Not fair I know, but that is how the system works. The problem is its the same people involved at the club. The only person to have truly moved on is Melville. Was speaking to my m8 was was involved with Dee4life the last time they were in the shit and he reckons they have about £300k in funding secured for next season already without taking into account the season ticket income they will get which will be much greater than ours (this is from the sale of Griffiths , and money raised by their business club and fans that wasnt used to pay off creditors) The only small good point is they still havent come to a deal with the players (or one that has been published) and the SFL can still do them for that I hope. ****** hate them , possibly as much as the Old Infirm. Always hated Dundee mind you so its not much of a change Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted May 2, 2011 Report Share Posted May 2, 2011 The problem is that you are confusing the failings of the previous owners with the situation the current owners have. The previous owners may have ripped off suppliers, but legally, that has now been resolved. The current owners are allowed to make a fresh start, no debts and big crowds. Not fair I know, but that is how the system works. No confusion, DD. I'm not talking about the legality of the situation. What really gets on my goat is the SFL who don't have scaled punishment in place. As I see it at present the door is wide open for clubs to go into administration at a time where a one off points deduction would be more or less academic. It's surely the responsibility of the SFL to have rules in place to enforce fairness when the "system" works against equity. They could start by looking at soft loans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted May 2, 2011 Report Share Posted May 2, 2011 In practical terms and on a relative basis paying out 40p in the £ isn't likely to impact on suppliers and service providers too dramatically. Paying 6p in the £ is and will have put small businesses in jeopardy and cost jobs. You're correct about the principle to a point but as I remember we paid out as much as we could. All evidence with Dundee points to them paying out as little as possible. I can see tho' the general point you're making and us getting into that situation in the first place was every bit as bad as Dundee FC. I think tho' we came out of it with our heads, if not exactly held high, certainly not bowed in shame, whilst Dundee this time round have no dignity left whatsoever Paying out 40p in the pound doesn't impact on suppliers??????? Here's hoping you have your own business. Would love to purchase something from you and then only pay you 40%. Once again Thistle fans take the high ground and try to show how superior we are while forgetting (or try to justify) that we did exactly the same thing. The fact we paid more doesn't come in to it. Local businesses suffered because of us. Add to that the fact that we STILL don't live within our means are continue to lose money every year shows we are just as bad as everyone else. The only difference we dont have a sugar daddy as the board were unwilling to lose their little bit of power in the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberteeb Posted May 2, 2011 Report Share Posted May 2, 2011 LIB - I agree that they are cheating scumbags. My point was that the morons in charge have let them get one over on them (again) and milk the system. They have been given a clean financial slate (wrongly by the SFL/SFA) and given their crowds are much larger than ours they have every right to spend much more than us on players. I'd be amazed if Dundee don't walk this league next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted May 2, 2011 Report Share Posted May 2, 2011 Paying out 40p in the pound doesn't impact on suppliers??????? Here's hoping you have your own business. Would love to purchase something from you and then only pay you 40%. Read again I said "in practical terms and on a relative basis". Even so I agree I still phrased that badly. I was actually thinking of other businesses that I've been involved in when saying that. It would be too long winded to go into further but if I had a return of say 40% on my bad debt provision it wouldn't impact into letting staff go etc. A return of only 6% would be crippling. I probably still haven't made myself much clearer You are correct in what you say in the rest of your post but even taking that into account I still feel just about anyone can comfortably take the moral high ground when talking about the way Dundee FC have conducted themselves off the pitch this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter of '63 Posted May 2, 2011 Report Share Posted May 2, 2011 Read again I said "in practical terms and on a relative basis". Even so I agree I still phrased that badly. I was actually thinking of other businesses that I've been involved in when saying that. It would be too long winded to go into further but if I had a return of say 40% on my bad debt provision it wouldn't impact into letting staff go etc. A return of only 6% would be crippling. I probably still haven't made myself much clearer You are correct in what you say in the rest of your post but even taking that into account I still feel just about anyone can comfortably take the moral high ground when talking about the way Dundee FC have conducted themselves off the pitch this season. Was it not the case that the Inland Revenue were preferred creditors and had to be repaid in full when Thistle were in that situation whereas HM Revenue and Customs only get 6p in the pound from Dundee's administration? It's particularly galling that we sold Gary Harkins to pay our Tax Bill - Dundee bought Gary Harkins and didn't pay their Tax Bill. He will either play for them next season or be sold with the transfer fee being available to stengthen their squad. I agree with both you and Uberteeb that Dundee have worked the system to their own advantage - Bryan Jackson for Manager of the Year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted May 2, 2011 Report Share Posted May 2, 2011 (edited) The problem is its the same people involved at the club. The only person to have truly moved on is Melville. Was speaking to my m8 was was involved with Dee4life the last time they were in the shit and he reckons they have about £300k in funding secured for next season already without taking into account the season ticket income they will get which will be much greater than ours (this is from the sale of Griffiths , and money raised by their business club and fans that wasnt used to pay off creditors) The only small good point is they still havent come to a deal with the players (or one that has been published) and the SFL can still do them for that I hope. ****** hate them , possibly as much as the Old Infirm. Always hated Dundee mind you so its not much of a change ^^ this ^^ Dundee are a shocking example of exactly what is wrong with scottish football and how it deals with financial cheating mismanagement, and how cheats clubs like Dundee are allowed to feather their own nests at the expense of (in the main) hardworking decent businesses (and the taxpayer), and ultimately have an substantial advantage over other clubs, by means that is at end of day, cheating. And it's not as if they don't have massive previous either which they got away with scot free essentially. So thats 10p and 6p in the pound. :censor: :censor: They should have been demoted to the 3rd Division at end of this season, or even suspended from the league for this or next season, and then made to start in the 3rd. Edited May 2, 2011 by yoda-jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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