Propco/stadium Development

[jagfox]

Has anyone got any drawings/artists impressions etc, of what the plans are for the city end of Firhill and the main stand? I heard the main stand will be turned into one row of seats with something similar at the city end? If this is true i think it will be a total disaster for Firhill

 

HTH

 

Rest of thread

Edited November 6, 2011 by jagfox

[Steven H]

I'm agreeing and giving justification to your answer, we will get more for the ground in 1 sell than bit by bit which will end up happening.

 

We either keep where we are and fix what we have (which we can't afford and its way too big for us) or we sell up and move

 

Round and round the circle we go...every few weeks this topic comes up, every few weeks the same issues are discussed. It might be fun to try to summarise the whole situation as it stands currently, but first let me address the bit of your post Ive put in bold. The original propco plan was to sell the whole stadium and move elsewhere. No takers! No-one wanted to buy because the property market was crashing at the time. As a result we have propco in it's current form.

 

Development plans where revealed, and didnt look too bad, but since the planning permission was granted it's all went queit in relation to that. So we now have some For Sale signs up round about the city end and at the Meet the Board night Ian Dodd explained that they do not expect any movement regarding selling that land for a long time yet.

 

I could be off the mark, but the land (city end only) could now be worth a lot more given it has planning permission attached, a small upturn in the property market might also boost the numbers a bit . So the city end will be sold at some point and those who buy it would need to develop it in accordance with the conditions outlined in the planning permission (I think). For me that's it in relation to the bing, it is what it is until it's sold. My thoughts are on what might happen to the main stand and the facilities within it that are currently used by the club (offices, changing rooms etc)

 

Is it possible that the city end land could be sold for enough money to make the propco investors their money back (at least)...and PTFC to retain the main stand as payment for their 50% stake in Firhill Developments? That would be the ideal solution in the short-term, and allow for more potential in relation to a future sale of the whole ground (either including the bing or not). Only then would we stand a chance of getting a smaller stadium somewhere just as convenient. Even then, it's very very unlikely.

 

IF it all worked out that way, and IF we could afford to build a smaller stadium elsewhere, i'd like a design similar to Livi. Red n yellow all over, and with it being smaller it will be easier to create an atmosphere.

 

@ PGS: There you go, a full and frank answer to the best of my knowledge and understanding....AND...if I'm incorrect in anything I say, no doubt someone more knowledgeable will be along presently to set me (and you) straight. Now do me a favour? Fcukin smile

 

Edited to add: Im saving this somewhere for the thread that's started in a few weeks time

Edited November 6, 2011 by Steven H

[yoda-jag]

Development plans where revealed, and didnt look too bad

 

 

That's a matter of opinion.

 

Your definition of architectually pleasing to the eye and mine of architectual abomination obviously differ a tad.

[Steven H]

 

That's a matter of opinion.

 

Your definition of architectually pleasing to the eye and mine of architectual abomination obviously differ a tad.

 

Yeah I think you're putting words in my mouth there. Didn't say it was pleasing did I oh wise one . I said it didnt look too bad, i.e. not as bad as expected.

[Jaggernaut]

Yeah I think you're putting words in my mouth there. Didn't say it was pleasing did I oh wise one . I said it didnt look too bad, i.e. not as bad as expected.

It was hideous. At least the original version that had a 1,000-seater stand would have kept the stadium looking like a (lopsided) serious football stadium, but the prospect of nothing but a wall is morale-sapping.

[Steven H]

It was hideous. At least the original version that had a 1,000-seater stand would have kept the stadium looking like a (lopsided) serious football stadium, but the prospect of nothing but a wall is morale-sapping.

 

The designs I saw had seats in there....not as many as 1000 tho. Anyway, that's not gona happen so who really cares what he, she or thee thinks.

[Jaggernaut]

The designs I saw had seats in there....not as many as 1000 tho. Anyway, that's not gona happen so who really cares what he, she or thee thinks.

Here's one that will probably never happen:

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.themainstand.com/images/planmini.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.themainstand.com/ms5.html&usg=__YEB_yXAiaizOMwIgzzompgxS4rQ=&h=171&w=226&sz=17&hl=en&start=12&sig2=NXYz0El1OmHp7ZRW8Sx3ew&zoom=1&tbnid=jmWMZiD-zljtpM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=108&ei=Ahq4TsJ0wpTyA5Xt4KIF&prev=/search%3Fq%3DFirhill%2Bartist%2527s%2Bimpression%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1

[yoda-jag]

What should have been:

This doesn't look too bad

[Jaggernaut]

What should have been:

This doesn't look too bad

The turf looks to be in a terrible state!

[potty trained]

aerial pic from the shed side of the ground 1980(?)

 

you can zoom in to make it larger.

Edited November 8, 2011 by potty trained

[potty trained]

anyone seen this before?

[McKennan]

anyone seen this before?

 

 

Wow! I haven't seen that. We can all day dream.

[Jaggernaut]

anyone seen this before?

Excellent find.

 

I'd be "happy" with that. I could see a lot of home fans heading for there.

[McKennan]

Leaving gaps in other parts of the stadium. Sadly, it always comes down to building a stand/more seats against 'who is going to sit in them?'

[northernsoul]

Leaving gaps in other parts of the stadium. Sadly, it always comes down to building a stand/more seats against 'who is going to sit in them?'

 

If it ever did happen then the gaps make sense. There would some for of gap towards the JHS to preserve the vehicle entrance area which I guess is highly significant to the Health and Safety certificate for the stadium. The gap on the other side would allow the required space to re-do the staircase beside the Main stand, which would maybe also include space for toilets.

 

Just my personal thoughts and assumptions. Sadly, I can't see anything happening for a long time and even when it did the fans wish for some form of good facilities will not be high on the developers list of priorities.

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

Unlike many jags fans, I have been generally optimistic about the potential of the Propco/Firhill Developments investments/trade off. In short, at least it's not Tesco or Barrat Homes trying to buy us out of house and home and re-locating us in an out of the Barr Construction box, toy town, lego, soul less, "stadium" miles away from any decent pubs or public transport links. We have repeatedly been assured by the directors who coordinated this deal that they share the opinion Thistle at Firhill is best for the football club, the local community and as a business asset.

 

The redevelopement of the city end is clearly of concern to many a jags fan. My thoughts are that something profitable needs to be done to replace the bing but this could be our last chance to regain some semblence of atmosphere and pride in our home. I appreciate that the stadium has been divvied up for the sake of the investment, but I hope those in positions of power can take a more wholesome view of Firhill's purpose when considering future developments.

 

I have twice heard Mr. Beattie say that plans for re-developement are on hold till the building and property market picks up. I dearly hope that this is true and allows for a re-think of how any investment into building at Firhill is spent. The vague plans that I have seen (the overcrowded towers on the city end and possible conversion of the old stand to flats!!! )appear very unsympathetic to ideal of keeping Firhill an attractive and exciting venue in which to both play and watch football matches. I doubt also if such a cluttered design would appeal to prospective tennants or purchasers of the new properties.

 

Instead of building an ugly new Metropolis on the bing, ripping up a hundred years of heritage putting gaffs in the old stand and losing facilities we currently use in order to cash in on the next property boom Why dont we tear out the 3000 or so seats in the Jackie Husband stand that never get used and give any office blocks or granny flats a bit of decent space and a nice view of the baisin on one side and that famous blinding sun set on the other?

 

The current configuration of different sections of our home support (family section, hospitality guests, directors box, season ticket holders, "the shed boys", press area) is far from ideal. The reason being is simply that the Jackie Husband Stand is about 2000-3000 seats too big!

 

... just a thought...

[Jaggernaut]

 

 

Instead of building an ugly new Metropolis on the bing, ripping up a hundred years of heritage putting gaffs in the old stand and losing facilities we currently use in order to cash in on the next property boom Why dont we tear out the 3000 or so seats in the Jackie Husband stand that never get used and give any office blocks or granny flats a bit of decent space and a nice view of the baisin on one side and that famous blinding sun set on the other?

 

The current configuration of different sections of our home support (family section, hospitality guests, directors box, season ticket holders, "the shed boys", press area) is far from ideal. The reason being is simply that the Jackie Husband Stand is about 2000-3000 seats too big!

 

... just a thought...

I would guess that reducing the JH stand by 10-15 rows would be horrendously expensive for no return. You'd need to demolish and re-site the wall, all the facilities within the stand etc etc, probably even change the ground level outside the stand and between the nolly. It's a no-goer, and I'd actually hate to see it happen anyway, as even though it's mostly empty these days, it's one of the best stands in Scottish football.

 

And anyway, when we get back to challenging for Europe we'll need as many seats as we can fit into Firhill!

[potty trained]

In short, at least it's not Tesco or Barrat Homes trying to buy us out of house and home and re-locating us in an out of the Barr Construction box, toy town, lego, soul less, "stadium" miles away from any decent pubs or public transport links.

 

The current configuration of different sections of our home support (family section, hospitality guests, directors box, season ticket holders, "the shed boys", press area) is far from ideal. The reason being is simply that the Jackie Husband Stand is about 2000-3000 seats too big!

 

... just a thought...

 

How would you say Firhill differs from the above definition of a cr@p stadium?

 

Excluding the Main Stand...

 

Barr Construction Box

Toy Town

Lego

Soul less

 

The only thing we can be "proud of" is that Firhill does have good transport links and good local pubs... Though considering it's in Glasgow, I would hope it would. In short thanks to these two things, we can get pished to numb the Barr Construction box, toy town, lego, soul less, "stadium", we have to endure every week. and then get the hell away from it as quickly as possible.

 

 

With regards to the second point quoted, these are all things that every other stadium seems to have, but yes, the JHS is "too big".

 

But lets not forget, it wasn't too big when it was built. And it was going to be part 1 of a 16000 seater stadia as shown above on The Main Stand Website.

 

What we need to ask is, when in the mid 90's we could attract crowds of 13000(?) to games v the old firm, why this will not happen again. Why won't crowds go up in the next 20 years, as much as they have dropped. lets not forget, prices haven't increased that much since 20 years ago, have they? i'm sure it was £12 when we went up at the start of the 90's.... what has been a problem is the standard of football on display.

 

Due to living in Paisley, i've taken in 2 St Mirren games this year. one, when we were away to falkirk, and one a midweek game against Ayr.

 

For £20, their ground is near spotless. You are close to the pitch, and the toilets are spotless, i mean spotless! The pie stalls are well staffed with queue's no more than 3 deep. Plus obviously, for £20, they are playing very entertaining football. When you compare what we are getting at Firhill, lav's that don't flush, a bolted down, piss stained wooden seat for a lav. pie stalls that are run at an almost amateur level and broken & dirty seats. But it is £3 cheaper!

 

It is also a 5 minute walk from 3 pubs and 10 minutes from paisley town centre. what i mean is, if they can relocate, so can we.

 

As one of the co-contributers to The Main Stand site, under the name Dave.J, i was dead against anything happenning to The Main Stand, but now, thanks to our BOD, they have successfully worn me down and i am now of the opinion, fck it, lets sell up and move. But thats more to do with the fact they have spent no real investment in the stadium, and have let the whole ground fall into a state of disrepair.

Edited November 8, 2011 by potty trained

[Jaggernaut]

 

For £20, their ground is near spotless. You are close to the pitch, and the toilets are spotless, i mean spotless! The pie stalls are well staffed with queue's no more than 3 deep. Plus obviously, for £20, they are playing very entertaining football. When you compare what we are getting at Firhill, lav's that don't flush, a bolted down, piss stained wooden seat for a lav. pie stalls that are run at an almost amateur level and broken & dirty seats. But it is £3 cheaper!

 

I thought this was quite amusing and revealing: A while back I (half-flippantly) pointed out the poor hygiene implications of handling food and money from punters without washing hands before each new transaction. On Saturday I noticed that a couple (not all) of the servers at Firhill were wearing gloves. But they were still simply taking money from punters and then handling pies!

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

I am not trying to defend Firhill in its current condition. Nor am I trying to suggest developing it into being a venue able to attract income streams for the club other than gate money from league games would be easy or inexpensive. The purpose of propco, in so far as I can decipher, is to attract investment to redevelop the space at the club's ( and now at the club/property company's)disposal in a profitable way. I am suggesting that the so far the proposals for this development are ill-considered in that they are overly ambitous in their utilisation of space and not ambitious enough in their consideration of Firhill as a whole.

 

If relocation were to happen, and it has been suggested by those in charge that it is not a resolution they favour, one has to answer the question of where the club would go. I would presume that land prices within Glasgow are higher than those of, for example, Paisley, Stirling, Airdrie or Perth and a move to the suburbs, for example, Cumbernauld or East Kilbride, can change the whole character of the club, may exclude the needs of current supporters and be wholly uneffective in attracting new custom.

 

A new stadium is only new for a short term. The Jackie Husband was new over 15 years ago. It could been argued that although impressive, it was never fit for purpose. Rather, it was built as part of a grand plan which pinned it's success on unfaultering achievment on the football field, consistant growth of support and a progressive well run an profitable league structure. It was only ever neccessary to meet with utterly fatuous and totally patronizing criteria which were not only ultimately damaging to our club and others but have since been reviewed and altered. We are able to fill it on occasion but with insufficient frequency to justify its size or to fund its upkeep.

[Jaggernaut]

 

A new stadium is only new for a short term. The Jackie Husband was new over 15 years ago. It could been argued that although impressive, it was never fit for purpose. Rather, it was built as part of a grand plan which pinned it's success on unfaultering achievment on the football field, consistant growth of support and a progressive well run an profitable league structure. It was only ever neccessary to meet with utterly fatuous and totally patronizing criteria which were not only ultimately damaging to our club and others but have since been reviewed and altered. We are able to fill it on occasion but with insufficient frequency to justify its size or to fund its upkeep.

I agree with a lot of what you've written. About the JH stand, I also have little to argue about. But we're basically stuck with it as long as we're at Firhill, as the costs of downsizing it (I mean structurally, rather than just putting some sections out of use) would be massively expensive, for nothing in return. The amount of land gained would be negligible and not suitable for anything anyway, since fans would still need to get access to the stand. Nor would it do anything to attract new fans.

 

The first thing the club needs to do is get a winning team on the park, one that looks like it could make it back to the SPL. Once we get there and get re-established as a top-tier team, then it'll be time for some serious talk about what to do with dear old Firhill.

[twinny]

I thought this was quite amusing and revealing: A while back I (half-flippantly) pointed out the poor hygiene implications of handling food and money from punters without washing hands before each new transaction. On Saturday I noticed that a couple (not all) of the servers at Firhill were wearing gloves. But they were still simply taking money from punters and then handling pies!

 

The big stadiums tend to have one person operating each till with one or two runners for that person who collect the correct food items to give to the customer. Pretty efficient (though the staff themselves are usually anything but).

[Willjag]

If it ever did happen then the gaps make sense. There would some for of gap towards the JHS to preserve the vehicle entrance area which I guess is highly significant to the Health and Safety certificate for the stadium. The gap on the other side would allow the required space to re-do the staircase beside the Main stand, which would maybe also include space for toilets.

 

Just my personal thoughts and assumptions. Sadly, I can't see anything happening for a long time and even when it did the fans wish for some form of good facilities will not be high on the developers list of priorities.

I think what McK is meaning by gaps NS is people moving from one stand where they usually sit to a new stand and leaving bigger gaps in the crowd?

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

But we're basically stuck with it as long as we're at Firhill, as the costs of downsizing it (I mean structurally, rather than just putting some sections out of use) would be massively expensive, for nothing in return. The amount of land gained would be negligible and not suitable for anything anyway, since fans would still need to get access to the stand. Nor would it do anything to attract new fans.

 

The first thing the club needs to do is get a winning team on the park, one that looks like it could make it back to the SPL. Once we get there and get re-established as a top-tier team, then it'll be time for some serious talk about what to do with dear old Firhill.

 

Unquestionably the priority of ant professional football club must be success on the field of play. But as we know all to well, that is easier said than done. Furthermore, the route to that ultimate goal is reliant on the other ways a football club makes itself a healthy, established business.

 

I am not an architect or surveyor, so I could not give an expert opinion on what might be acheivable when considering a restructuring of the JHS, nor can I make sound comment on cost. However, I am confident enough to speculate that there are experts out there who could develope ideas for such a project, within the budget that would be required for the redevelopment of the bing, which would provide us with a far more desireable resolution to stadium alterations than those currently proposed.

 

It is a huge challenge to put to Jackie and his team to provide successful, entertaining football that will fortnightly fill the JHS. I sincerely hope that they can but, even if the punters do come flooding back to Firhill on a regular basis, I think they would be better rewarded for such an acheivement by playing in a well designed, respectably considered, balanced arena which maximises use of space to provide an electric atmosphere and satisfactory conditions for all, as opposed to a dis-jointed, ill-conceived stadium created through ad hoc decision making, wishful thinking and failure to thoroughly analyse the consequences of bad design or explore alternative suggestions.

 

...

[McKennan]

I think what McK is meaning by gaps NS is people moving from one stand where they usually sit to a new stand and leaving bigger gaps in the crowd?

 

That's it, Will. Building 3000 more seats won't bring in 3000 more fans to fill them. I think it's good we're discussing the future of Firhill again. However, it's going to take a lot to convince me - and, I suspect, others - that the development plans as they stand are 'not the writing on the wall' for Firhill as a sporting amenity for the club.