Spl Take-Over Of The Sfl.

[David Stevenson]

OK, so who is surprised in the slightest by the SPL rejection of the SFL counter-proposals on league reconstruction?

The insistence that the SPL "vision" for the future of Scottish football is the one that must prevail is nauseating given the horrendous mess that this organisation has made of Scottish football. Had the SPL been a resounding success in even commercial rather than footballing terms, they might have some solid ground to stand on, but their project has been a failure by any measure.

The SPL proposal is really a take-over of the SFL by the SPL rather than a merger, and as such was designed for guaranteed rejection by the SFL. The SPL programme offered less than zero to almost 2/3rds of SFL clubs: no sharing of the cash redistributed downwards but the opening of the trapdoor of a pyramid system and the removal of any say in the running of the League for the bottom tier clubs.

Who would vote for that in SFL2 or 3? The SPL strategy is clearly one of driving a wedge between the SFL1 clubs (who stand to benefit from the cash for which they are clearly so desperate, they are willing to sell out the other SFL clubs) and those below.

Should the proposal be rejected (and 22 of 29 need to agree to this poisonous project), the situation of the SFL1 clubs will be used as a lever to generate SPL2. Remember that from last year? And how likely is it that an invitation will be extended to poor wee Rangers to bulk up the numbers to two Divisions of 12?

It looks in many ways to me that this is pay-back time for the SFL clubs, especially the "wee teams" who showed some backbone in publicly rejecting the bullying and lies that were directed at them by the SPL and SFA last summer. A great benefit of SPL2 would mean that never again would the "big teams" have to face a fall of 3 Divisions should the financial mismanagement for which they are correctly famed result in liquidation.... It would, at worst, be the scenario they had planned for Rangers: a drop of a single Division.

The truth is that the SPL proposals are not a 42-team solution, but a 12-team solution which also happens to suit a number of current SFL1 clubs. There are so many clubs in the SPL carrying unsustainable debt, and ALL of them in the bottom 7 this season, that the fall from grace and implosion is staring them in the face.

This "solution" is driven not by concern for "the benefit of Scottish football" as crassly claimed by the SPL's Ralph Topping in the Herald, but by the appalling mess that the SPL has spawned in it's inglorious 15-year history. In that period the national team has failed to qualify for a single tournament. Meanwhile, two clubs (Gretna and Rangers) have been liquidated, another four have been in administration (Motherwell, Dunfermline, Dundee and Livingston, the latter two twice) and others teeter on the brink with unsustainable debts: Hearts, Kilmarnock, Aberdeen and Dundee United in that order.

As many Jags fan recognise from past experience, the SPL is in reality the Self Preservation League comprising a group of Chairmen and apparatchiks who are serial failures yet see themselves as the smartest guys in the room; it's like the banks in microcosm.

It should be time to dissolve the SPL, but it is the SFL that's more likely to disappear.

[Juan Kerr]

Burn the witch

 

I hate to say I told you so...especially when it wasn't me.

[peagreenboy]

It seems like there's going to be a massive extinction event soon to happen in Scottish football. What side of the chasm to we want to be on? The morally correct side, or the side that survives?

[Lenziejag]

Were Thistle part of the discussions today at Hampden or was it Dundee. I wonder if Thistle have had any vote in this debacle.

[scotty]

Maybe it's time for the fans to once again start making the threats that were flying around when a compromise for sevco was on the cards. Many were prepared to hold their own clubs to account (ransom?) for the sake of "sporting integrity" then.

So what's so different now?

[simoncordiner]

Bang on David.

[MWM]

Clubs of ambition will not let the equally self serving diddy cartel consisting of two bob pub teams like Albion Rovers, the Shire and the Angus clubs stand in their way and block this.

Edited May 24, 2013 by MWM

[Juan Kerr]

Would "clubs of ambition" include Sevco, Hearts, Gretna, Dunfermline, Livi, Dundee, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, and Killie plus the serial basket cases of the 1st Division, or is it only the ones who've actually been in Administration/been liquidated?

 

SPL 2 is another attempt by full-time teams to stave off the inevitability of going part-time.

[Dunfermline Jag]

Clubs of ambition will not let the equally self serving diddy cartel consisting of two bob pub teams like Albion Rovers, the Shire and the Angus clubs stand in their way and block this.

It is embarrasing when Jags fans speak of part-time clubs in the same disparaging way that OF fans use to talk about us.

This is about a group of financial basket cases trying to stave off their inevitable decline by scapegoating generally well run and solvent clubs for their own self inflicted problems.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Dunfermline Jag

[MWM]

We have still been able to turn a profit the last two years despite a terrible financial model. With a redistribution of finances and play-offs, those figures would have been much more comfortable.

 

Hamilton have been full-time for nearly 8 years now, sold on some fantastic talents and paid back £2 million of debt in that time.

 

Those with aspirations of being full-time even in the current setup are not going to have glorified junior teams dictating to them how to run their business. I mean how dare these clubs try and boost their profits and fight for a better system! We rightly amongst other clubs have ambition to play at the highest level possible. Why should some bowling club committee have a major say in the running of Scottish Football? The fact four part-time village diddy teams from Angus have four times as many votes as ourselves or Falkirk to influence major decisions that affect professional businesses despite still having a smaller fanbase combined than either is absurd.

 

The diddies have bitten off more than they can chew, block this vote on the 10th of June and the SFL is a dead duck when the clubs with any semblance of a fanbase leave a two bob amateur organisation.

 

People look at the SPL name and faint. The seaside league clubs are as self serving as any SPL club, but surely not these loveable little hub of the community clubs? Many of them know with a pyramid they'll disappear off the face of the Scottish Football map, and good riddance it would be to a few of them. Why East Stirlingshire, a club who are homeless, devoid of a fanbase and grub in the lower reaches of division 3 year after year with no ambition to improve or find a home and establish a community of their own, is deserving of a senior place and leeching SFL and SPL annual settlement money over any junior or Highland club, I'd like to hear why.

[Juan Kerr]

Am I mis-remembering or do our office staff actually not get paid by the club? IIRC it's actually a Director's company that employs them. That means our "profit" is actually an accounting trick.

 

I'm prepared to admit that there are a couple of clubs in the lower leagues who have absolutely no ambition whatsoever, but equally, there are a few there who are only grubbing around that level because they have genuinely "cut their cloth". That makes them less succesful, which, in an ever decreasing spiral, lowers their crowds, making them have to cut deeper, making them even less succesful ad infinitum.

 

The "clubs of ambition" are generally only where they are currently either due to understanding bank managers or a benevolent backer. What gives them the right to dictate the future of Scottish football?

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I think it's very difficult for Jags fans, and coming to think of it the Club itself, to not adopt a big fish attitude when criticising the SFL status quo. I personally don't want to see the SPL take over the SFL and certainly not the continuation of two league bodies. However just because the SPL is a shambles doesn't mean that the SFL isn't.

I can almost understand why the top SFL division consists of only ten teams as there's only one promotion spot. But why two further leagues of ten? Simply because there's no relegation from the bottom tier as the SFL decide to run their outfit as a closed shop. If the SFL were serious about change but remain opposed to amalgamation with the SPL then they could at least come up with counter proposals that would make their competitions more attractive and more open. By allowing for some sort of pyramid system we could have say a first division of 12 clubs (more if promotional play offs are still on the table) and a lower division of 18 clubs.

Until the basement of the SFL is opened up then there's always going to be this tail wags the dug situation. The majority of traditionally part time clubs who appear content with the tedium of playing another nine clubs four times a season minimum will opt for the status quo.

At one end of senior football we have the so called self preservation league, which is fast dispelling that moniker as it's been shown it can't even self preserve. At the other end enough clubs happy with their lot and with a closed shop mentality.

Meanwhile Mssrs, Doncaster, Longmuir & Regan draw nice fat salaries.

[Dr.D]

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Meanwhile Mssrs, Doncaster, Longmuir & Regan draw nice fat salaries.

Precisely, this is the whole stumbling block. These 3 leeches just want to cling on to their very comfortable positions and are certainly not going to support anything that upsets their lifestyles. the good of Scottish football is the last thing on their minds.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

Scottish football has to be divided between part time and full time. As another poster has said it is crazy that Angus teams can have more votes than Thistle and can dictate to bigger clubs such as Celtic. We have to look at ratio of support, investment, what they put back into the game versus voting and monetary share.

 

You should still be allowed to move up and down leagues but all teams in Div 2 and 3 should be part-time to follow a sensible business model. Now they are demanding more money from top leagues it is not correct.

[David Stevenson]

You should still be allowed to move up and down leagues but all teams in Div 2 and 3 should be part-time to follow a sensible business model. Now they are demanding more money from top leagues it is not correct.

 

The thing is, they are (almost) all part-time and (mostly) run sensible business models. The clubs that are the most screwed economically are the wasters who pushed the SPL project and the clubs who had to buy into it via (needless) stadium investments.

 

I read in today's Metro that Hearts are "budgeting" a £2.5M deficit for next season on current revenues. They propose to plug this by player sales (£1M) and a membership scheme for fans (£1.5M). This is insane.

 

In the SFL, Sevco are losing £1M a month while having a player budget likely larger than that of the other 29 SFL clubs combined. Utterly nuts and unsustainable.

 

Scottish football's problems derive mostly from the "big clubs" not the wee ones.

[peagreenboy]

The fact four part-time village diddy teams from Angus have four times as many votes as ourselves or Falkirk to influence major decisions that affect professional businesses despite still having a smaller fanbase combined than either is absurd.

... it is crazy that Angus teams can have more votes than Thistle and can dictate to bigger clubs such as Celtic. We have to look at ratio of support, investment, what they put back into the game versus voting and monetary share.

 

Each club has one single vote regardless of size, right? I don't understand how any democratic process could be any different.

 

Not arguing one way or another, but if it comes down to size of support, earning potential, etc. then we should simply let Rangers and Celtic decide what is best to do, as they obviously have many more supporters than every other club in Scotland combined.

 

It's a bit daft imho to consider Thistle a big swinging dick in this matter.

 

If the part-time clubs are to be cut adrift, would that mean no pyramid system and no chance for new clubs to join the system? Simply two leagues with no relegation from the second tier?

[MWM]

Vikington on P&B summed it up wonderfully for me:

 

No: he's talking complete and utter shite (Annan Chairman). Stating that every club should have an equal vote would be like giving Brechin one MP in the UK Parliament and Paisley one MP. That is not in any way a democratic system. A fair system gives proportionate weight of voting power to clubs enjoying a higher league status, greater turnover, and more fans through the gates. There is no legitimate reason why Angus clubs should receive four times the voting power of Falkirk in the same organisation.

 

As has been shown throughout this whole mess, clubs like Annan are rattled because once the merger finally gets rid of their diddy veto on relegation, they'll be finding themselves playing in the regional pub leagues in a few years time. No-one is fooled by their grandstanding, and most importantly, none of the big clubs in Scottish football are on their side. Either they compromise by accepting the current proposal, or SPL2 will happen and they'll be packed off to the regional pub leagues.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

If the part-time clubs are to be cut adrift, would that mean no pyramid system and no chance for new clubs to join the system? Simply two leagues with no relegation from the second tier?

 

But that's my point. We rightly call the SPL the self preservation league but who are the clubs traditionally against opening the basement? You could argue that the the lower league "part time clubs" are just as self preservation orientated.

David S argues that the part time teams are on the whole sensibly run business models. I agree entirely. The problem is as I see it these sensibly run clubs have virtually no desire to see change. I could add a degree of cynicism and say it might be in their interest to see clubs traditionally further up the food chain forced into going part time as they are brought down to their level. I prefer tho' just to believe that they wish to defend the status quo.

So as it is today we have one group of clubs at the top fighting solely for their interests and another group towards the bottom fighting to maintain theirs. It's hardly surprising that a third group stuck in the middle has now emerged to fight their corner. Hardly surprising but a ludicrous situation and as I repeat those three clowns continue getting well paid for doing hee haw.

Edited May 24, 2013 by lady-isobel-barnett

[Lenziejag]

.

Meanwhile Mssrs, Doncaster, Longmuir & Regan draw nice fat salaries.

Precisely, this is the whole stumbling block. These 3 leeches just want to cling on to their very comfortable positions and are certainly not going to support anything that upsets their lifestyles. the good of Scottish football is the last thing on their minds.

 

I am in no way defending these guys - but it was the 2nd & 3rd div clubs(presumably) who blocked this. And why shouldn't they, as they were getting nothing out of it except possibly a bigger gap between them and the div 1 clubs

[Lenziejag]

 

 

This is just spin. Each Angus club gets one vote, just like Falkirk. Why not compare Angus clubs with Stirlingshire clubs, then it is 4 each, isn't it or why isn't the Annan chairman combining his with the other borders clubs - then it is 4 -4.

[peagreenboy]

Vikington on P&B summed it up wonderfully for me:

 

Anyway, a Morton fan of all people shouldn't be bumping his gums about proportionality, seeing under his system his club would deserve about a quarter-vote. Unless having millionaire sugar-daddies to prop up your ghost-town support and shanty-town stadium means your voice means more than community clubs in Angus or Fife. Is there even a "community" in Greenock anymore?

[twinny]

This is just spin. Each Angus club gets one vote, just like Falkirk. Why not compare Angus clubs with Stirlingshire clubs, then it is 4 each, isn't it or why isn't the Annan chairman combining his with the other borders clubs - then it is 4 -4.

 

This.

 

Also, if you ever find yourself agreeing with VikingTon again, go have a lie down.

[twinny]

To be honest though, the power should not be in the hands of any of the clubs. As much as I don't trust the SFA, there should be one national football body run by a committee independent of any club influence. Asking clubs to have to agree on anything for anything to happen just means each club will vote in their own interests rather than that of Scottish football, and all we'll get is further self preservation.

[Dunfermline Jag]

The part-time clubs were not against a weighted voting structure but the 3-2-1 proposed gave 3rd Division clubs no vote at all! They would have accepted 3-1-1-1 but the SPL rejected it out of hand - WHY?

 

Also, the SPL clubs wanted to keep 11-1in the top tier for certain matters.That was entirely inappropriate in a 42 club set up and would have meant that some proposals could have been defeated by 2 clubs from the 42 voting against! What nonsense!

 

The whole argument about part-time clubs blocking a pyramid structure is as inaccurate a chestnut is it is an old one. There is no pyramid to relegate these clubs to and that is all they have ever asked for - to know where they would play. Ironically, just when the SFA seem to be making progress here the SPL clubs are trying to scupper the whole thing.

[MWM]

Why should clubs who have around 5% combined of the fan support in this country dictate how the professional game is run?!

 

The pyramid talk is always funny, they claim they're all for it, but given it was part of the 42 club proposals, and for the first time there has been a genuine prospect of it, the wee diddies shat it they'll end up in the abyss when more ambitious clubs are given a chance and they lose out on their annual settlement as well the money the full-time clubs generate to keep an amateur league organisation viable for them.

 

I can just imagine the businessmen rubbing their hands and lining up to see their name branded across the new look SFL as 400 punters turn up at grounds across the country at Stranraer, Annan and Montrose. They belong in the regional setups with clubs of their own size and resource, where many of them would be swallowed up and never come to relevance again.

Edited May 24, 2013 by MWM