Policing On Saturday

[Vom Itorium]

Did anyone else notice the lack of polis at the game on Saturday and the amount of blokes in flouro waistcoats that had the word 'Observer' on the back? I also noticed that the ding-dong announcement at the start was read out by Brian rather than the usual jobsworth polisman. We also have the situation where Firhill Road now remains open, which is sure to mean the need for less police.

 

Are the club now trying to self-police themselves in an effort to save on policing costs? What's going on?

Edited August 16, 2010 by Vom Itorium

[1 John Lambie]

The people with 'observer' on their jackets were trainee policemen seeing how things work at a football game.

[Allan Heron]

I would imagine that the current police commander is open to a more relaxed view of the extent to which games need their active involvement. Maybe a new person who realises that there are probably many more things happening in Maryhill on a Saturday afternoon that require a police presence than the game at Firhill.

 

The levels of policing is something that the club have no direct control over - in other words, they can't simply decide not to have a presence on their own account. If the police commanders decides that we need half of the police in Glasgow to service our games then we're stuck with that.

 

This all seems to be good news as our matches have tended to be over-policed (usually on the grounds of some spurious relationship with what's needed at certain other grounds in Glasgow. So that's not Hampden for Queen's Park games then!).

[Dundeejag]

-I am sure there was an article in the press on Sunday stating that there would be fewer Police at all Strathclyde matches due to a lack of cash to finance the Police. Agreement has or is being sought to reduce the number of Police by increasing the amount of trained stewards. This should cost the clubs less money as the steward's wages are far less than that of the Police.

[B.C.G. JAG]

-I am sure there was an article in the press on Sunday stating that there would be fewer Police at all Strathclyde matches due to a lack of cash to finance the Police. Agreement has or is being sought to reduce the number of Police by increasing the amount of trained stewards. This should cost the clubs less money as the steward's wages are far less than that of the Police.

 

I'm sure the stewards need to be properly certificated these days like nightclub bouncers, but would it be worth the club paying for a few volunteers to get the required training and then possibly save even more...?

[Blackpool Jags]

The two officers who frequent the Aitken suite c2.30pm would be first on my list of cost-cutting measures. About as necessary as a 'Guide to Bigotry' for the average OF numpty.

[eighthoursbehind]

I read something last week about less police and more stewars to be used at football matches. Can't remember where I read it.

[Vom Itorium]

I read something last week about less police and more stewars to be used at football matches. Can't remember where I read it.

If this is the case the club should be letting the fans know and asking them to do their bit to make sure that Firhill is a trouble-free place on matchdays. For far too long now we have been over-policed and had to pay scandalous bills to the polis for their attendance at Firhill when there is very little, to no need for them.

 

I wish the club, and Brian well with with this and hope that we can all do our bit to help make sure that the need for the police is minimal and that it helps release some more funds for the BoD to piss up against the wall.

[thomas]

I read something last week about less police and more stewars to be used at football matches. Can't remember where I read it.

 

I think it was in either the daily retard or sunday mason....its the only papers ive read last week apart from the metro (for the letters, they crack me up!!!)

[eighthoursbehind]

Thanks Thomas.

[McKennan]

The Sunday Mail warned last year that cuts would be made after revealing Strathclyde Police spent £5million a season covering the SPL matches in their area ...

 

Oh really? Some of that didn't come out of the hide of a certain struggling team in the west of city? How very generous of Semper McVigilo.

[Hot Shot]

The levels of policing is something that the club have no direct control over - in other words, they can't simply decide not to have a presence on their own account. If the police commanders decides that we need half of the police in Glasgow to service our games then we're stuck with that.

 

Exactly

 

I think i'm correct in saying also, that there is a specific budget for policing football matches, which i'm led to believe is very little, the rest is paid for by the clubs, but if the police decide they need half the force to police our game then not only do we have no choice in the matter, we also have to pay for it.

[Ma Ba']

the level of policing in recent years at Firhill has been a scandal, with some games there is about 1 polis for every 4 away fans. I think it is a nice saturday afternoon overtime ploy.

You get more people and more trouble every friday and saturday night at some of the nightclubs in town, but are they hoachin with plods? not a chance.

No, we are easy meat, there is never any trouble within Firhill (apart from the murder on the park, Taggart C1984) even the carry on with Clydebank United was well away from the groundand the polis managed to miss that one!

[Guest Argus]

Personally I think it is a mistake not to close Firhill Road as the crowd comes out as its a disaster waiting to happen. Saw several near misses on Saturday, after the game, with kids running accross the road.

I wonder what the thinking is behind not closing it?

[Brian]

Personally I think it is a mistake not to close Firhill Road as the crowd comes out as its a disaster waiting to happen. Saw several near misses on Saturday, after the game, with kids running accross the road.

I wonder what the thinking is behind not closing it?

 

£500 min saving to club per game

Edited August 17, 2010 by Brian

[Steven H]

£500

 

Per game?

 

£10,000 a season roughly , hope Argus is wrong but it is a bit dodgy if fans are used to walking along the road.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Personally I think it is a mistake not to close Firhill Road as the crowd comes out as its a disaster waiting to happen. Saw several near misses on Saturday, after the game, with kids running accross the road.

I wonder what the thinking is behind not closing it?

I suppose it's all this cutback stuff that's been discussed but the non closing of the road is a strange one. Young kids are encouraged to come along to Firhill unattended. We all know road safety becomes more of a problem when youngsters are in a group, which often tends to be the case at our games. They're also the most likely to not hear/ignore the safety announcements.

There's absolutely no doubt we've been over-polised at Firhill but I'd have thought 2800 folk all having to converge on the the one street within less than 5 mins of each other would have made closure of that street a priority. I realise there's loads of other grounds where road closure isn't possible. Grounds like McDiarmid Pk, East End Pk, Gayfield, Cappielow all have busy roads outside the main exits but I'm fairly sure they've all got traffic lights, pedestrian crossing or points duty polis.

[Brian]

Per game?

 

£10,000 a season roughly , hope Argus is wrong but it is a bit dodgy if fans are used to walking along the road.

over the season its more like £20,000

[lady-isobel-barnett]

over the season its more like £20,000

Wait till Third Lanark reads this. Wonder what Pat Clarke's wages are at East End Pk?

[Brian]

Hi a wee bit of back ground on this

 

Police - January 2008

Policing Football Matches

The handing down just before Christmas of the first instance decision in Greater Manchester Police v Wigan Athletic FC Limited brought to a close (subject to any appeal) a long-running dispute about payment for the rising cost of policing football matches. Coincidentally, the decision came as the Metropolitan Police announced its intention to take a more robust stance to cost recovery against the backdrop of a £4.5 million ‘subsidy’ the previous year.

Although the Wigan case itself centred on amounts claimed for seasons 2003/4 and 2004/5, a number of the points in issue were of wider significance, both within the GMP force area and nationally.

In dispute was GMP’s entitlement to not only charge for officers at rest day volunteer rates and for 6 hours per fixture, but also to set the number of officers required without express agreement.

The club’s case was that there had been no request, as required under Section 25 of the Police Act 1996, for any policing over and above the levels supplied and paid for in the preceding seasons under a different divisional commander. Wigan contended that the absence of a request for the policing actually supplied following the command change prevented the police from recovering the extra costs invoiced.

The case was conducted over a two year period leading to a two week High Court trial in London in October 2007. In a comprehensive reserved judgment handed down on 21 December 2007, Mr. Justice Mann found for the police on all important points of principle.

Subject to the overriding requirement to act reasonably and fairly, it was for the police to set the appropriate policing level for fixtures. Although the police and club were at loggerheads throughout the two seasons, the judge concluded that the request for Special Police Services (SPS) under Section 25 “plainly can, and should be” implied.

But as no price had been agreed between the parties due to the stand-off during the two seasons in question the amount to be paid is “a reasonable sum for the SPS…actually provided”. With some regret, by virtue of the laborious and ultimately unsatisfactory nature of the exercise involved, the judge gave guidance as to what could or could not amount to SPS, based on a detailed analysis of sample matches during the two seasons in question. The final amounts due may be less than invoiced for certain fixtures and possibly more in others. If that is the case, then the claim will reduce or increase accordingly.

The wider significance of this case lies beyond the local dispute in Wigan. This is the first case in which the courts have looked at charges for SPS at a modern, out-of-town football stadium. Subject, of course, to charges being limited to officers performing duties special rather than public in nature, in terms of geographical catchment area the judge rejected Wigan’s argument that SPS could only be provided inside the stadium, favouring the much wider area of the leased land on which the stadium stands (even though the club itself uses the stadium by virtue of a licence). That finding reinforces the view that football clubs have a responsibility beyond the turnstiles to those attending to watch their matches.

So while this decision certainly reinforces the role of the police and provides a mechanism for cost recovery for SPS where negotiations may have broken down, its most important message is an encouragement to reach a sensible agreement each season, not only in Wigan but elsewhere -

“It is vital that the club and police get together before each season to reach an agreement as to how policing is to be paid for. Each side will have to be flexible, and there will have to be give and take. Doubtless any responsible senior police officer will want to bear in mind matters going beyond what strict entitlement and a strong bargaining position might otherwise drive him towards. Equally, any responsible club management will recognise that a workable regime will require flexibility on their part as to what may or may not strictly be SPS – debates which proceed on a dog by dog, horse by horse, phase by phase basis, should not be allowed to happen again.“

 

Page 1 of 7

APPENDIX 2

APA INTERIM GUIDANCE ON CHARGING FOR POLICE SERVICES

Introduction

1. In 2005 ACPO published ‘Paying the Bill’: Guidance on Charging for

Police Services. There had been no effective consultation with police

authority treasurers or the APA. The APA Plenary considered the

document in July 2005 and concluded that the costing guidance was

useful but that the guidance on charging neglected the role of the

police authority in charging decisions. It was agreed that the APA

should produce some covering guidance for police authorities, to

ensure that authorities played a suitably active role in setting policy on

when to charge for special police services.

2. During 2006 it was discovered that ACPO were themselves

considering revisions to the original version of ‘Paying the Bill’, partly in

order to respond to a recent court judgement (the ‘Mean Fiddler’ case),

and it was agreed that APA and ACPO should seek to produce joint

guidance which would reflect the views and address the concerns of

both bodies. By mid-2007 a near-final draft of the proposed joint

guidance had been produced with a small number of outstanding

issues remaining. These issues have still not been resolved and in the

meantime ACPO representatives are seeking to address the

implications of a further legal judgement (Wigan Athletic AFC v GMP).

3. It is unclear when the joint guidance will be finalised. It is nearly three

years since the deficiencies in the original guidance were identified by

the APA and there is increasing evidence that police authorities need

clarity about their role in determining charges for special police

services. It has therefore been decided to provide guidance to police

authorities on an interim basis. As far as possible this document

reflects what will appear in the joint APA/ACPO guidance but, in the

absence of final agreement, that cannot be absolutely guaranteed.

4. Both the original ACPO guidance and the latest draft of the proposed

joint APA/ACPO guidance can be accessed by police authority

treasurers on the PATS website.

Background

5. The police service is generally provided out of public funds for the

benefit of the public at large. However there is a limited range of

activities where it is appropriate for the service to make charges to

individuals or organisations to recover costs. Ensuring that charges are

levied effectively in such circumstances will protect the public police

provision and contribute to the overall funding of the service.

Page 2 of 7

6. Historically practice in terms of when and how charges are levied has

been variable between police authorities and within police forces.

Some variability may be legitimate but consistency should be achieved

where possible to secure credibility and confidence in the charging

processes and to ensure that proper cost recovery across the service

is not undermined.

7. As with financial management generally the service is increasingly

implementing charging policies on a delegated basis within forces.

Delegation requires an agreed framework of policies and procedures to

ensure that individual decisions at different points in the organisation

are made on a consistent basis and in accordance with the corporate

requirements of the police authority and force management.

8. In pursuance of these objectives the original version of Paying the Bill,

which was published as ACPO guidance in 2005, was aimed primarily

at police service managers. The joint APA/ACPO guidance, when it is

published, will be addressed at police authority members as well as

police force management, both corporate and delegated.

9. In addition the revised version provides guidance following the legal

judgement in the ‘Mean Fiddler’ case affecting the charging for special

police services, and will also address lessons to be learned from the

Wigan v GMP case. It is proposed that a future revision will also

address the basis of recovery of costs incurred under inter-force mutual

aid.

Scope

10. The ability to charge for police services is generally determined by

statutory provisions. The charging guidance covers three main areas:

· The provision of special police services at the request of any

person under s25 of the Police Act 1996 which makes such

services subject to payment of charges as determined by the

police authority. Special police services generally relate to

policing an event, eg a pop concert, or series of events, eg

football matches. S26 of the 1996 Act applies similar

requirements to the provision of police services overseas.

· S18 of the Police Act 1996 extends to police authorities the

powers of the Local Authorities (Goods and Services) Act 1970

to supply goods and services to other bodies or persons. This

may include services provided in competition with other

providers, eg training or vehicle maintenance, where charges

will reflect market rates, or services as a by-product of core

police activity such as provision of collision reports.

· The provision of police services to other agencies such as the

immigration service or prison service.

Page 3 of 7

Responsibilities

11. The police authority has statutory responsibility for the finances of the

police force. The Chief Constable is responsible for the financial

management of the force under delegation from the authority. The

police authority should therefore approve, in consultation with the Chief

Constable, a framework of financial policies and regulation within which

that delegated responsibility operates, including policies and processes

for charging. This requirement is reinforced by specific statutory

references, eg s25 of the Police Act 1996.

12. The police authority’s responsibility for setting charging policy,

particularly in relation to special police services but also chargeable

services generally, includes the following elements:

· Establishing, in consultation with the Chief Constable, and

approving the overall policy.

· Agreeing the scope of delegation to the Chief Constable.

· Determining exceptional cases.

· Monitoring implementation through regular reports.

· Reviewing the policy periodically.

· Supporting actions agreed with the Chief Constable.

13. The Chief Constable is responsible for agreeing the services to be

provided. This will normally be in accordance with a risk-based

assessment. The Chief Constable will assist the police authority in

determining charging policy and is then responsible for implementation

of that policy within the agreed terms of delegation. Individual force

managers will have delegated responsibilities as agreed by the Chief

Constable.

Costing Methodology

14. The costing methodology set out in the original ACPO guidance has

been broadly accepted and will not be fundamentally changed in the

revised guidance. It can therefore be relied on as a sound basis for

establishing the appropriate cost base for charging purposes.

15. Charging relies on the accurate recording and appropriate allocation of

costs. The sound financial systems operated by the police service

provide a firm foundation in this regard. There are then two principal

issues to address in establishing the cost base for charging purposes.

16. Firstly it is very desirable to have a standard approach across the

service which means that any variations in costs, and therefore

charges, reflect real cost differences between forces. The costing

model in the guidance therefore incorporates standard approaches for

the following items:

· police basic pay and allowances

· police overtime

· relevant ancillary costs

Page 4 of 7

· general overhead recovery

· productive hours and deployable time

17. Secondly a decision has to be taken as to which elements of cost will

be reflected in the charges for services delivered in different

circumstances. Charges could be restricted to recovery of actual direct

costs only or, at the other end of the scale, could be based on the full

economic cost. The costing model therefore allows the derivation of

costs according to different definitions which can then be applied

appropriately within the charging policy.

Charging Policy

18. Each police authority should set its own charging policy having regard

to its local circumstances. However a number of key principles have

been identified which should underpin the policy.

· Charging policy should have regard for the requirements for

stewardship of public funds.

· The policy should be set in the context of the overall funding

position of the authority.

· Charging policy should have regard to the authority’s overall

policing objectives.

· Charging policy must conform to relevant legislation.

· Charging policy should have regard to national guidance.

· Charging policy should reflect proper accountability and ensure

that costs are met by the body responsible for the purpose for

which the service is being delivered.

· Private persons/bodies should not be able to profit at the

expense of the police service.

· The policy should be clear and transparent to both providers and

receivers of the service, and all decision-making within the

policy should be transparent.

· The charging policy should be consistent in its application

including where discretion is allowed.

· Charges should be based on a robust and sound costing

methodology.

· The basis of cost calculations should be consistent, so that

significant variations in charges are explained by local

circumstances rather than methodology differences.

· There should be a clear understanding of how the charging

policy and costing methodology are to be applied by

practitioners.

Special Policing Services (Policing of Events)

19. The definition of special police services and the conditions for charging

have been the subject of a number of legal cases, including, most

recently, Reading Festival Limited v West Yorkshire Police Authority

(the ‘Mean Fiddler’ case) and Wigan Athletic AFC v Greater

Manchester Police.

Page 5 of 7

20. Special police services are normal police services provided over and

above core policing at the request of a person or organisation. It is

generally easier to demonstrate that police services are additional to

core policing when provided on private premises rather than in public

spaces. Payment for the services is effectively the subject of a

contractual arrangement with implications for prior agreement on both

sides. Nevertheless case law confirms that a request can be ‘implied’

depending on the particular circumstances.

21. It is the Chief Constable’s responsibility to determine the level of

policing required on the basis of a risk assessment. However to ensure

that payment can be enforced police resource managers should draw

up a memorandum of understanding as a basis for written agreement

with event organisers.

22. To ensure that the Chief Constable’s view is given due weight in the

event of disagreement, the police authority and the force should

maintain good relations with the safety and licensing bodies in their

area.

23. Charging policy needs to distinguish between different categories of

event, in particular:

· Commercial events, intended to generate private profit

· Non-commercial events, ie charitable or community events

· Statutory events reflecting constitutional rights or processes.

24. Authorities are strongly recommended to charge the full economic cost

of special police services provided for commercial events. It is essential

that this approach is adopted consistently across the country to ensure

that legitimate recovery of police costs is not undermined. Any

departure from this principle should only be made on exceptional

grounds and with the specific approval of the police authority.

25. It is appropriate to abate charges for non-commercial events. Good

relations between police and local communities are fundamental to the

success of modern policing, both in respect of neighbourhood policing

and securing cooperation and information to address serious crime and

terrorism, and this is a proper factor to take into account in considering

the policing of community events and any charges.

26. Whilst charitable events may generally be viewed favourably, police

authorities need to give careful consideration to their policy on charging

for police services. Some major events may require substantial policing

and can generate large sums albeit for charitable distribution. A

reasonable contribution towards police costs is both desirable and

feasible. Non recovery of costs represents a subsidy from public funds

and authorities should satisfy themselves that they are supporting

appropriate charitable purposes in this way.

Page 6 of 7

27. The original guidance describes a model for determining levels of

charge for non-commercial events based on an evaluation of relevant

features of the event. The joint guidance will introduce greater flexibility

into the application of this model. Both the weightings attached to

particular features and the levels of abatement are for local

determination by each authority. If it is considered that there should

normally be some level of contribution towards the costs of policing

non-commercial events then a reasonable range of abatement would

be 25-75%. However it is within police authorities’ discretion to allow

full abatement, either as a general policy or in exceptional

circumstances.

28. The model could be adopted or adapted by police authorities to fit their

own circumstances and policies, and incorporated in their charging

policy. Any decision to depart from its normal operation would then be

subject to authority approval. General use of the model would enhance

consistency of charging across the service. The APA, in consultation

with ACPO, will review the implementation of the guidance to assess

the degree of variation between authorities’ policies and whether there

has been any adverse effect.

29. Policing of statutory events is part of core activity and no charges

should be made.

Provision of Goods and Service to Third Parties

30. Potentially police authorities could provide and charge for a wide range

of goods and services. Indeed the statutory support for this has been

strengthened recently by the application to police authorities, as best

value authorities, of s93 of the Local Government Act 2003.

31. However in practice the scope is limited in a number of ways. Firstly

any service or activity has to be supported by police authorities’

statutory powers. In effect such a service must spin off from normal

police activity or be an activity which is incidental to the provision of the

police service. The level of chargeable services must also be

reasonable and proportionate to the services required by the police

force itself. Chargeable activity should ultimately support and not

undermine the core purpose of providing a public police service.

32. There are services which are common to all police forces and unique to

the police service, such as the issue of firearms certificates or the

provision of copies of accident reports, for which the guidance sets out

standard rates of charge which should be applied across the service.

33. Other services which support the police service itself have a marketcompetitive

dimension. These include for example training in particular

skills or vehicle maintenance. Where such services are provided to

other bodies the charges will have to take account of market rates. The

general principle should be that, as a minimum, charges should

Page 7 of 7

recover the costs of supplying the service. Where market conditions

permit charges could be levied up to the full economic cost in order to

contribute towards overheads.

Charging for Services to Government Agencies

34. The police service increasingly provides a range of services for, and

with, other government agencies. These are often part of central

government such as Customs and Excise or the Immigration Service,

but they may also be arms-length agencies with a quasi-commercial

status.

35. Even where the purpose of particular activity supports the

responsibilities of a separate government body or service, the police

force may be securing benefits towards it own objectives. Recovery of

costs should be based on direct employment and other specific costs

incurred.

36. In the case of quasi-commercial activity, assessment of charges should

start with the resource cost, ie direct costs and direct overheads, and

increase up to full economic cost subject to any market constraints.

[jags365]

Going back to road closure, there was the annoucment on Saturday that Firhill Road would remain open at the end of the game, though it was closed when we left?

[Vom Itorium]

Thanks for the 'wee' bit of background Brian. Could we have the elongated version now please?

[Brian]

Going back to road closure, there was the annoucment on Saturday that Firhill Road would remain open at the end of the game, though it was closed when we left?

it was closed

Also over the last few games the road has monitored to see if it will work and it seems to be lance has been great with his help over the mic it is just a case of getting eveyone to walk on the pavement

[Brian]

Thanks for the 'wee' bit of background Brian. Could we have the elongated version now please?

That only part one mate

[yoda-jag]

Thanks for the 'wee' bit of background Brian. Could we have the elongated version now please?

 

That only part one mate

 

Bring on the full version then !