CUMBERNAULD JAG Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Are we not allowed to mention whats going on in London and the rest of England ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wragg Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Are we not allowed to mention whats going on in London and the rest of England ???? Eh? Did you have a thread deleted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAWB Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Are we not allowed to mention whats going on in London and the rest of England ???? Who said you couldn't? Finnally the BBC has changed their headlines from the UK riots to the riots in England. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Hope any jags fans living in any cities affected have come through unscathed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Are we not allowed to mention whats going on in London and the rest of England ???? Didn't know this was off topic but if a thread starts up I'm sure the usual suspects will be sharing their world vision! I wonder who Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mod7 Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Are we not allowed to mention whats going on in London and the rest of England ???? It was not me who deleted it, however having checked the deleted/removed posts I probably would have removed it too. There is nothing wrong with discussing the riots, by all means do but please avoid posting racist nonsense if you do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigesige00 Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 These youth riots show the widespread "no future" feelings. Capitalism has failed. However, there is no revolutionary party armed with the internationalist perspective. The emergency task of the proletarian vanguard is to establish the Fourth International. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 These youth riots show the widespread "no future" feelings. Capitalism has failed. However, there is no revolutionary party armed with the internationalist perspective. The emergency task of the proletarian vanguard is to establish the Fourth International. blahh blahh blahh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Didn't know this was off topic but if a thread starts up I'm sure the usual suspects will be sharing their world vision! I wonder who you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) you Jaggy I'm feeding you lines and pulling you into my trap. Next time you look in the mirror you'll have started a wee goatee as tribute to Leon. Oh, and don't tell me that you've not already got a pair of hammer and sickle scants! When contemplating life free from the shackles of the capitalist system, have you ever wondered why the commies have all the good facial hair? [Cue for you to come back with: some of the guys have got good beards as well. Boom boom!] I'm clearly Mike to your Bernie Winters! But to return to your bed time reading, why not try this from the great architect (of the revolution, not the Universe): The rich will do anything for the poor but get off their backs. Think about what has happened over the past few days and we perhaps have the starting point for a discussion. Not that I'd ever wish to condone what's happened; but this has very little to do with achieving a political outcome. Although - perversely and as happened when Thatcher faced similar problems in Toxteth etc - a political solution will be found and cracks in society will be papered over. Until the next time that is... The system is in some ways reactionary and as "The Pen" [Trotsky] pointed out when speaking of the American system: If the leaders seek only to preserve themselves, that is what they become; preserves, dried preserves. So they will huff and puff, David will threaten "the full force of the law" and then promise "inclusion" or something similar; as ever, tinkering around the edges but not really addressing the problem. But maybe what is becoming apparent is that this will take more than money being thrown at inner city areas. How about a return to full employment and offering youth meaningful opportunities? In a civilised society, is that too much to ask? You know it wasn't that long ago Dave said: "let's hug a hoodie", now it's "let's hang a hoodie!" - another Tory volte face? They're just politicians, would you expect anything else? Edited August 10, 2011 by Meister Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianlucatoni Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) The system is in some ways reactionary and as "The Pen" [Trotsky] pointed out when speaking of the American system: If the leaders seek only to preserve themselves, that is what they become; preserves, dried preserves. So they will huff and puff, David will threaten "the full force of the law" and then promise "inclusion" or something similar; as ever, tinkering around the edges but not really addressing the problem. But maybe what is becoming apparent is that this will take more than money being thrown at inner city areas. How about a return to full employment and offering youth meaningful opportunities? In a civilised society, is that too much to ask? You know it wasn't that long ago Dave said: "let's hug a hoodie", now it's "let's hang a hoodie!" - another Tory volte face? They're just politicians, would you expect anything else? and now i'll bite - nothing but a bunch of wee fandans running about looking for a new mobile phone or DVD - and those besuited nobends who all ran back from their holidays for such a non-issue to 'reclaim the streets' are just as bad - but please spare us the platitudes of the disposessed, lack of meaningful opportunities for the 'there's no hope' crew - get off your tracksuited ar*es and get a friggin job - bring back the birch Edited August 10, 2011 by gianlucatoni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.C.G. JAG Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) These hooligans think they can act with impunity. They think that they can just do as they want and take what they want with no consequences for them and that the tax payer will just pick up the tab. The politicians are all full of condemnation and promises of crackdowns on looters, but in the end we won't see even one banker arrested. Edited August 10, 2011 by B.C.G. JAG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Half-way down the Road to Serfdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinyman Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Sometimes it's a shame we don't have torture chambers in the UK, These scumbags below would be a fine example of the people I'd send to em http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYuMPw6Yi3k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 and now i'll bite - nothing but a bunch of wee fandans running about looking for a new mobile phone or DVD - and those besuited nobends who all ran back from their holidays for such a non-issue to 'reclaim the streets' are just as bad - but please spare us the platitudes of the disposessed, lack of meaningful opportunities for the 'there's no hope' crew - get off your tracksuited ar*es and get a friggin job - bring back the birch I personally wouldn't disagree with anything you've said. Had this happened in some so-called socialist countries I think the policing would have been a bit more heavy-handed (understatement!) and we'd be checking the body count. I put this on and expected a doing so will read on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 (edited) Half-way down the Road to Serfdom. Glad you've woken up and realised that we are going down a one-way street! But if obedience and a bit of old-school discipline does it for you then I'm sure there are services that can be bought in your area Edited August 11, 2011 by Meister Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Heron Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 These youth riots show the widespread "no future" feelings. Capitalism has failed. However, there is no revolutionary party armed with the internationalist perspective. The emergency task of the proletarian vanguard is to establish the Fourth International. There were four internationals on last night. Mind you, as some of them were friendlies that's probably not quite what you were looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 These youth riots show the widespread "no future" feelings. Capitalism has failed. However, there is no revolutionary party armed with the internationalist perspective. The emergency task of the proletarian vanguard is to establish the Fourth International. And I thought I was the mad mental one on this DG! So where do we find the vanguard of the proletariat? To explain, Lenin spoke of educating the workers' party, with Marxist teaching educating "the vanguard of the proletariat" who were capable of assuming power and leading the whole people to socialism, of directing and organizing the new system, of being the teacher, the guide, the leader of all the working and exploited people in organizing their social life without the bourgeoisie and against the bourgeoisie. . . blah, blah, blah. Point is there is no workers party and the point I've tried to make is that today's kids are understandably alienated from the body politic; and given that successive governments have failed them, who the f*** can blame them! If you're seriously trying to make a political point read Lenin's pamphlet entitled 'Left-Wing Communism: an Infantile Disorder'. I think you'll find that the old Bolsheviks wouldn't have had a moment's hesitation in dealing with this unrest! Oh, and I'm still not saying that rioting is an acceptable form of protest. The fact is that I loathe the scum c**** who did this for a free telly or Fred Perry out of Debenhams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Oh, and I'm still not saying that rioting is an acceptable form of protest. The fact is that I loathe the scum c**** who did this for a free telly or Fred Perry out of Debenhams. you have seen the light, your "i love Maggie" badge and poster is on the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 you have seen the light, your "i love Maggie" badge and poster is on the way Jaggy Do us a favour, chuck in one of Annabel Goldie and laminate them for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianlucatoni Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I personally wouldn't disagree with anything you've said. Had this happened in some so-called socialist countries I think the policing would have been a bit more heavy-handed (understatement!) and we'd be checking the body count. I put this on and expected a doing so will read on... ... think the mostly overweight coppers realised they'd never catch most of them slippery youngsters so did nowt (on fkin triple time) ... apart from the initial protest/violoence in tottenham (where it could be argued there was a bit of ill feeling) the other events which followed were quite hollow indeed. .. and since when did the new riot gear involve a daft wee golden circular shield - what happened to the 5foot perspex shield of old? - thought those wee Roman style shields were quite gay looking (in a non-homophobic way!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 (edited) ... think the mostly overweight coppers realised they'd never catch most of them slippery youngsters so did nowt (on fkin triple time) ... apart from the initial protest/violoence in tottenham (where it could be argued there was a bit of ill feeling) the other events which followed were quite hollow indeed. .. and since when did the new riot gear involve a daft wee golden circular shield - what happened to the 5foot perspex shield of old? - thought those wee Roman style shields were quite gay looking (in a non-homophobic way!) I work alongside a few ex-cops and firemen (the forgotten front-line heroes in some of this - who put out the fires as they were being bottled etc?) and the consensus is that the police weren't allowed to confront and engage. Apparently this isn't how to control the angry mob: lessons from Ulster and other forms of crowd control (usually large demo's etc). I'll take their word... But as I see it, there simply weren't enough cops in attendance and they looked pretty impotent and unable to control themselves never mind the angry mob e.g. I can't imagine this happening in say Paris; where the polis would have been half-cut and ready to rumble. (Drinking is apparently allowed with lunch. How French! ) Also, did I see a cop with pepper spray just spraying it around his colleagues like Lynx? WTF was that about? Poor guy - and they are just people (workers in uniform if you want to get all political) - was probably wondering why he ever joined up! However, were they to get stuck in then probably an eleven year old would have ended up with brain damage and the PR damage would have OTT. So softly softly seems to be the very British way. A few points: the mob (probably Tottenham aside) appears to have acted without motive so their actions were arguably not political. However, the solution has to be political and who knows, maybe the government will take stock and decide that they have to have a look at what their policies are doing to today's youth: lack of employment, training, piss poor education etc etc. You've probably heard it all from me in other threads and I can bore the a*** off myself trying to wind-up some of my chums on this DG. But the points are serious and, who knows, some of this might even lead to some cuts being shelved. (Police, education and social work budgets are being hammered under the cuts.) But there is one fact that stands out and that is that the government has been given a fright (the fact that it's a Tory coalition isn't the point). They'll talk the talk about law and order but privately in cabinet this might lead to the brakes being put on one or two of their more ambitious programmes e.g. widespread court closures, reductions in police numbers etc. Fact is, their system was severely tested and found wanting... (Just as well their plans to allow offenders to enter guilty pleas and the have sentences halved were recently shelved. How bad would that have looked for looters and rioters?) Do I have answers/ Probably I don't. Politically I'd like to see radical change, but this must come through the ballot box and it is debatable if, in the immediate short-term, this would ever be capable of sorting out the mess that the policies of successive governments have made of our communities. Why it didn't happen in Scotland is another discussion for another day... (Just thought I'd throw that in in case there are any takers!) Edited August 12, 2011 by Meister Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blutarsky Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 Why it didn't happen in Scotland is another discussion for another day... (Just thought I'd throw that in in case there are any takers!) Daily Record hack, on his blog, makes a little bit of sense. At least, he's right about the urban geography being a factor and also highlights the collective amnesia regarding the nedlam that broke out in KG at the royal wedding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honved Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 Nailed it, and in the Tele as well... The saddest thing and what makes me sick to the stomach, is that it seems that "we/us etc" have become so used to graft, corruption, lies, greed and being on the make, that it no longer surprises us. As Peter Oborne says in that article, everything from Philip Green avoiding tax (yeah Woodstock, very clever of him - not) to Gerald Kaufmann's £8000 B&O television. The emotions that we feel of anger and jealousy are largely suppressed, but it's no great surprise that some folk at the bottom end of society thought that they could get away with it just as easily. So now we have a whole line up of middle class wnakers sitting in courts handing down draconian sentences (as society, for quite sensible reasons, demands) and indignant commenteers (new word I just made up) on blogs and websites suggesting that the offenders homes should be taken away from them. How fecked up is that? Sometimes I despair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Scruff Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) Nailed it, and in the Tele as well... The saddest thing and what makes me sick to the stomach, is that it seems that "we/us etc" have become so used to graft, corruption, lies, greed and being on the make, that it no longer surprises us. As Peter Oborne says in that article, everything from Philip Green avoiding tax (yeah Woodstock, very clever of him - not) to Gerald Kaufmann's £8000 B&O television. The emotions that we feel of anger and jealousy are largely suppressed, but it's no great surprise that some folk at the bottom end of society thought that they could get away with it just as easily. So now we have a whole line up of middle class wnakers sitting in courts handing down draconian sentences (as society, for quite sensible reasons, demands) and indignant commenteers (new word I just made up) on blogs and websites suggesting that the offenders homes should be taken away from them. How fecked up is that? Sometimes I despair. I completely agree with the sentiments in the Oborne article. But, for me, you have to separate criminality from 'moral correctness'. If an MP has committed a crime they should get the jail (and some have). Ditto 'bankers' (whatever that's supposed to mean). And rioters/ looters who actively attacked innocent people and their property should be pursued to the full extent of the law. Where I despair is that WE have accepted over the last generation that "if you can get away with it, good on you. If you don't, here's your excuse". It's that you see every single day around you. To then say "don't punish those who commit crimes because that's our society" suggests surrendering any notion of civilisation. Edited August 12, 2011 by Mr Scruff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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