Youth Development

[Jaggernaut]

I know that many people have been pleased to see us investing more in youth teams in the last few years. And I can anticipate the overall reaction to the following question: In view of the lack of players from our youth teams becoming established first-team players, is the money spent on these teams worth it? But I'm asking it anyway. It's clear that it is possible to pick up good young players from other places for not very much money: Doolan, Fox, Sinclair, Elliot are all recent examples. So, ditch the youths, free up some cash for good players that can win us promotion.

 

 

(Runs for cover...)

[Mad Mull Jag]

Our problem with youth teams , is up until McCall cam ein we had no structure. We kept changing it with every manager , so we had guys (Mark Stewart, David Barron) who were decent then we disbanded some of the set up and they went elsewhere.

 

Fora youth set up to work, it must run independantly from the 1st team, it needs to have a stable structure to produce players for the 1st team. It also takes time, you cant just start a system one season and expect it to produce 5 1st team players the next season. Realistically you look at a 5 years period to get a return.

 

You take a group of guys in at 15/16 then develop them, in 5 years time they are 20/21 and at that point capable of holding down a regulart 1st team squad place.

[jaggybunnet]

I know that many people have been pleased to see us investing more in youth teams in the last few years. And I can anticipate the overall reaction to the following question: In view of the lack of players from our youth teams becoming established first-team players, is the money spent on these teams worth it? But I'm asking it anyway. It's clear that it is possible to pick up good young players from other places for not very much money: Doolan, Fox, Sinclair, Elliot are all recent examples. So, ditch the youths, free up some cash for good players that can win us promotion.

 

 

(Runs for cover...)

 

short term view which is the reason that Scottish football is in the shit, very few teams have had a stable youth policy and this has been shown in the mediocre players being brought in from foreign country's or from GB.

 

our problem is that we don't have a full team of experienced players so we can filter the youth through, Jackie admitted that he is playing youth players far earlier than he would like to.

[John Blutarsky]

Of the team that started against Hamilton only Rowson and Archibald were over 25. Most of the team were in the 23 - 25 bracket, these being the guys signed from other clubs/on frees/loan deals. Our youth policy hasn't matured to produce anyone in that age group yet so it's right to sign players.

 

It was notable that it was Hamilton's experience - players going down easy, hectoring the referee, tackles at the very edge of the laws of the game - was the main difference between the two sides. Our inexperience was all to apparent at times, from Fox's blunder to one of our players (Flanningan?)staying stoically on his feet after taking an elbow on the jaw.

 

So why the clamour to throw in 18 - 20 year into an already young and clearly inexperienced side? Some will get their chance throughout the season, the squad size will see to that. IMO the success of the youth policy is a couple of years away at least though by then Scottish football might be deid.

Edited August 22, 2011 by John Blutarsky

[Vom Itorium]

This is the only way forward for not just us but EVERY team in Scotland. This system we've had in place needs time and I thank McCall for putting the youth system we have in place and bringing back a scouting network that can find a player like you have pointed out.

 

Where are these 'good players' that can win us promotion then Jaggernaut? By that do you not simply mean journeymen pros who fans will recognise as they've been around the block. The first division has proved for years that you may have the 'big' players but not always get out of this godforsaken place.

[cjptfc]

I know that many people have been pleased to see us investing more in youth teams in the last few years. And I can anticipate the overall reaction to the following question: In view of the lack of players from our youth teams becoming established first-team players, is the money spent on these teams worth it? But I'm asking it anyway. It's clear that it is possible to pick up good young players from other places for not very much money: Doolan, Fox, Sinclair, Elliot are all recent examples. So, ditch the youths, free up some cash for good players that can win us promotion.

 

 

(Runs for cover...)

 

Are you John Lambie?

[uberteeb]

Our youth system is the only source of optimism at the club going forward. We might be able to pick up half decent (ish) First Division standard players from the Juniors but we aren’t going to get a player of immense quality that way, the kind of player that can be sold on for millions of pounds that could just be what we need to survive. If Hamilton and Livingston can do it then so can we. Also worth noting that those 2 teams have spent a fair bit of time in the top flight having invested in youth.

[Phoenix]

Youth development if done correctly is more than worthwhile, just look at Hamilton and Livi to see how much money can be made from it.

[glasgow boy]

This is the only way forward for not just us but EVERY team in Scotland. This system we've had in place needs time and I thank McCall for putting the youth system we have in place and bringing back a scouting network that can find a player like you have pointed out.

 

your having a laugh in mccall helping set up the youth system,

 

the original set up was for a community set up on a Saturday morning coaching the kids 5 years and up to 12 ,with the 12 being our first u/13 the following year .

this would have taken us about 6 years to develop the kids to up to 19s .

 

but was knocked back by the club for the old fashion way of starting a under 19s, 17s then 16s and so on

i'm not sure but i take it our players are just the lads from rose vale bc.

 

i have two grandsons playing at hampden {toryglen} on a Sunday morning at under 5s upwards

training twice a week ,

costing £20 each a month how i would have gladly given this to thistle to do this

 

 

some players will make it to pro football some wont,

but if you treat the kids right there is a good chance they will come back and support the club,

 

thistle are such a big club that the we would attract plenty of young lads wanting to be trained by thistle

 

the set up is a a farce look at stennys,falkirk and hamilton to see how a real youth set up is run.

 

its just a never ending stream of young players coming thru for them all the time.

[brick_top]

i have two grandsons playing at hampden {toryglen} on a Sunday morning at under 5s upwards

training twice a week ,

costing £20 each a month how i would have gladly given this to thistle to do this

 

 

some players will make it to pro football some wont,

but if you treat the kids right there is a good chance they will come back and support the club,

 

thistle are such a big club that the we would attract plenty of young lads wanting to be trained by thistle

 

the set up is a a farce look at stennys,falkirk and hamilton to see how a real youth set up is run.

 

its just a never ending stream of young players coming thru for them all the time.

 

I'm sure I've said this on here before, but Motherwell do something similar to this at Schools and sports clubs throughout North Lanarkshire on various days of the week. It's run in conjunction with NLC, and it's about £5 per head, per session, so pays for itself really.

 

The kids go, get a lot of touches of the ball, are supervised by a Motherwell community coach, and get a little claret and amber strip (kinda "mock" Motherwell strip").

 

It's a great thing, and seems to me to be very low cost to MFC. There was about 20 kids at the one my son went to, and there was about 9 similar sessions across North Lanarkshire that week. That's approx 200 kids to tap into. If you get even 1 player who comes through, that's got to be worth it. Even discounting possible players, the amount of kids who will no doubt want to go to Fir Park because they now feel part of that club, will be a fairly large amount, I would think. Tie it in with the "kids go free" (you could even emblazon this across the front of the strips you give the kids) at Firhill, and they'll be bringing along numerous, paying, adults too.

 

Seems a no-brainer to me.

[Premjag]

I think the problem is we've never had a manager in my matchgoing lifetime willing to play anyone under the age of 22. From the beginning of last season we heard every week how we would have to pitch kids in, but apart from Campbell at the end of last reason being played out of position, this has never happened.

 

The Old Firm argue, perhaps rightly, that they're under too much pressure to blood youngsters. What excuse have Thistle got? It's not like the "experienced" players we've pitched in over the years have been any better. Would it not be better throwing in a raw 18-year-old for a few games on the trot and forcing them to develop that way? If it doesn't work, we won't really be any worse off than we are just now. Of the youngsters we've got, many seem to be 20, 21, an age where they should have had a couple of years under their belt, not being treated with kid gloves.

[cjptfc]

I'm sure I've said this on here before, but Motherwell do something similar to this at Schools and sports clubs throughout North Lanarkshire on various days of the week. It's run in conjunction with NLC, and it's about £5 per head, per session, so pays for itself really.

 

The kids go, get a lot of touches of the ball, are supervised by a Motherwell community coach, and get a little claret and amber strip (kinda "mock" Motherwell strip").

 

It's a great thing, and seems to me to be very low cost to MFC. There was about 20 kids at the one my son went to, and there was about 9 similar sessions across North Lanarkshire that week. That's approx 200 kids to tap into. If you get even 1 player who comes through, that's got to be worth it. Even discounting possible players, the amount of kids who will no doubt want to go to Fir Park because they now feel part of that club, will be a fairly large amount, I would think. Tie it in with the "kids go free" (you could even emblazon this across the front of the strips you give the kids) at Firhill, and they'll be bringing along numerous, paying, adults too.

 

Seems a no-brainer to me.

 

I take it this is done in mornings or during school time?

 

It sounds a good idea. However, the stumbling block, it would take full time coaches to do this, full time coaches we don't have and can't afford, unless you use guys like Archibald.

[rodge]

Think we have to have it.As someone whos son has played in the pro youth set up for the last 2 years it has a lot of plus points for a club the size of ours.Although i agree we also need a community side to it,which in turn makes us some money.and you may even get a couple of future players come through the community side.

 

Dont always think that the best coaches are at pro youth level.have wittnessed over the last few months some really bad coaches which in turn had my lad turning down a years contract.only saving grace was they have left to go to a bigger club and my son was contacted by head of youth to go back,although he is still thinkig about it.

 

You can even make some money if other clubs like your players with even under 12s going for 3k for every year they are in the system.

[brick_top]

I take it this is done in mornings or during school time?

 

It sounds a good idea. However, the stumbling block, it would take full time coaches to do this, full time coaches we don't have and can't afford, unless you use guys like Archibald.

It was every night at about half 5 or 6, and on saturday mornings, in verious locations throughout lanarkshire (Bellshill, Wishaw etc) so kids from the whole area could go to one session a week, at least.

 

If you reach the level Motherwell do it, then surely approx 200 kids x £5 = £1000 per week? Even half that amount would be enough to employ a few community coaches on a part-time basis to teach kids of under 5 the very basics. Then you feed the ones that are good enough into your under 9s, and upwards they go.

 

I'm not sure of the ins and outs, what NLC put towards it or anything like that, but it's surely do-able.

 

You could even employ the coaches from students who are studying relevant subjects (sports science?). Gives them a part-time income that's linked to their course too.

Edited August 22, 2011 by brick_top

[cjptfc]

It was every night at about half 5 or 6, and on saturday mornings, in verious locations throughout lanarkshire (Bellshill, Wishaw etc) so kids from the whole area could go to one session a week, at least.

 

If you reach the level Motherwell do it, then surely approx 200 kids x £5 = £1000 per week? Even half that amount would be enough to employ a few community coaches on a part-time basis to teach kids of under 5 the very basics. Then you feed the ones that are good enough into your under 9s, and upwards they go.

 

I'm not sure of the ins and outs, what NLC put towards it or anything like that, but it's surely do-able.

 

You could even employ the coaches from students who are studying relevant subjects (sports science?). Gives them a part-time income that's linked to their course too.

 

You should take this to Gerry Britton, I'm sure he would investigate and decide if its do-able for the club.

[Vom Itorium]

It was every night at about half 5 or 6, and on saturday mornings, in verious locations throughout lanarkshire (Bellshill, Wishaw etc) so kids from the whole area could go to one session a week, at least.

 

If you reach the level Motherwell do it, then surely approx 200 kids x £5 = £1000 per week? Even half that amount would be enough to employ a few community coaches on a part-time basis to teach kids of under 5 the very basics. Then you feed the ones that are good enough into your under 9s, and upwards they go.

 

I'm not sure of the ins and outs, what NLC put towards it or anything like that, but it's surely do-able.

 

You could even employ the coaches from students who are studying relevant subjects (sports science?). Gives them a part-time income that's linked to their course too.

Sounds great in theory and would, I'm sure, be used by parents in and around the area with which we would be targeting.

 

What we have to realise though is that things like this take organising and as a club we do not have the resources or bodies to take the time to do this. The last time I was in the office there was Maxi, two volunteers and that was that. People really do have to realise that, yes, we can have some good ideas and there's loads of things the club could and probably should be doing but we DO NOT have the staff!

[cjptfc]

Sounds great in theory and would, I'm sure, be used by parents in and around the area with which we would be targeting.

 

What we have to realise though is that things like this take organising and as a club we do not have the resources or bodies to take the time to do this. The last time I was in the office there was Maxi, two volunteers and that was that. People really do have to realise that, yes, we can have some good ideas and there's loads of things the club could and probably should be doing but we DO NOT have the staff!

 

You're right. Staffing these things is the stumbling block for Thistle. It all costs money.

[brick_top]

Sounds great in theory and would, I'm sure, be used by parents in and around the area with which we would be targeting.

 

What we have to realise though is that things like this take organising and as a club we do not have the resources or bodies to take the time to do this. The last time I was in the office there was Maxi, two volunteers and that was that. People really do have to realise that, yes, we can have some good ideas and there's loads of things the club could and probably should be doing but we DO NOT have the staff!

 

Fair point, yeah. Seems like something that could benefit us in the long term though, so it would all depend on whether the club could manage to get something like this organised.

 

Possibly something a volunteer fan would be willing to undertake? I couldn't personally as I don't have the time, and I'm also not the best when it comes to organisational skills

Edited August 22, 2011 by brick_top

[Willjag]

Seem to recall 3 or 4 years ago a comunity coaching session at the Complex on a Saturday morning Is it still on the go?

[jaggededge]

Our youth system is the only source of optimism at the club going forward. We might be able to pick up half decent (ish) First Division standard players from the Juniors but we aren’t going to get a player of immense quality that way, the kind of player that can be sold on for millions of pounds that could just be what we need to survive. If Hamilton and Livingston can do it then so can we. Also worth noting that those 2 teams have spent a fair bit of time in the top flight having invested in youth.

 

I totally agree about the importance of a good youth set-up and Thistle seem to be moving in the right direction in that regard.

 

The youth teams seem to be doing well and, from what I've seen of the U-14s, the coaches certainly appear to be getting the boys to play football the correct way.

[Fawlty Towers]

A decent set of results from the various teams this weekend:

 

http://www.ptfc.co.uk/news/2011-2012/october_2011/youth_round_up_-_october_23rd

 

In my opinion developing our own youth players is the way to go, it will take time but if we are patient then we will see the benefits. With people like Bobby Dinnie, Gerry Britton and Ian Cameron involved we have excellent people in place and given time they will produce for us.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

A decent set of results from the various teams this weekend:

 

http://www.ptfc.co.uk/news/2011-2012/october_2011/youth_round_up_-_october_23rd

 

In my opinion developing our own youth players is the way to go, it will take time but if we are patient then we will see the benefits. With people like Bobby Dinnie, Gerry Britton and Ian Cameron involved we have excellent people in place and given time they will produce for us.

For those that look at Sinclair, O'Donnell and Elliot and say "why the bother of raising our own youngsters" it's got to be noted that imported young players are far harder to tie down on contract.

It's likely then if we produce a kid of equivalent talent that we'll be able to receive a greater return as in a subsequent transfer fee.

[kni]

For those that look at Sinclair, O'Donnell and Elliot and say "why the bother of raising our own youngsters" it's got to be noted that imported young players are far harder to tie down on contract.

It's likely then if we produce a kid of equivalent talent that we'll be able to receive a greater return as in a subsequent transfer fee.

 

Let's look at the facts. Paul Cairney has longest contract at Firhill. He was signed in 2008 (loaned back to the Spiders for a season) and his deal expires in May. Two years is the longest deal that the club is now willing to offer. Aaron Sinclair (signed from Montrose) is on a 2 year contract. Christie Elliot (a free agent) also has a two-year contract. Stephen O'Donnell (released by Celtic) has a one year contract.

 

Let's look at the previous clubs of our modern apprentices

 

Aaron Sekhon - Falkirk

James Wightman - Celtic

Jordan Moffat - Celtic

Dale Keenan - Celtic

Bradley Halsman - Motherwell

Gavin Halman - Motherwell

 

Quite frankly, your claim does not stand up scrutiny. Most of the players in our squad were signed as free agents. We paid a fee for Sinclair and may have small fees for others, e.g. Paton, Cairney, Kinniburgh and Doolan. The players that we sign from other clubs are offered at least 2 year deals, i.e. we tie them down and then extend their contracts if we want to keep them.

Edited October 25, 2011 by kni

[Steven H]

Let's look at the facts. Paul Cairney has longest contract at Firhill. He was signed in 2008 (loaned back to the Spiders for a season) and his deal expires in May. Two years is the longest deal that the club is now willing to offer. Aaron Sinclair (signed from Montrose) is on a 2 year contract. Christie Elliot (a free agent) also has a two-year contract. Stephen O'Donnell (released by Celtic) has a one year contract.

 

Let's look at the previous clubs of our modern apprentices

 

Aaron Sekhon - Falkirk

James Wightman - Celtic

Jordan Moffat - Celtic

Dale Keenan - Celtic

Bradley Halsman - Motherwell

Gavin Halman - Motherwell

 

Quite frankly, your claim does not stand up scrutiny. Most of the players in our squad were signed as free agents. We paid a fee for Sinclair and may have small fees for others, e.g. Paton, Cairney, Kinniburgh and Doolan. The players that we sign from other clubs are offered at least 2 year deals, i.e. we tie them down and then extend their contracts if we want to keep them.

 

Counter that by looking at the players we've produced who have a good chance of progressing to first team level:

 

Campbell

Bannigan

MacBeth

Burns

Fraser

 

There are also players like Stevenson and McGrotty who have a chance. We'll need to see what happens in the next year or 2 but it's a good start and a good mix of our own youths and those realesed from SPL clubs.

[Mr Bunny]

 

Let's look at the previous clubs of our modern apprentices

 

Aaron Sekhon - Falkirk

James Wightman - Celtic

Jordan Moffat - Celtic

Dale Keenan - Celtic

Bradley Halsman - Motherwell

Gavin Halman - Motherwell

 

Quite frankly, your claim does not stand up scrutiny.

 

All of them will be playing in our under 19 team. Could we have found 11 plus subs by signing other teams players? probably but would the other players have been better than what we have? I doubt it.

 

Even if we had a very successful youth policy we'd probably still be bringing in the occasional young player from outside as you'll never be 100% successful. But the chances of picking up better players must increase the younger you look for them. The older ones you look to take from other clubs will already be well known to the scouts/coaches in the game.

 

Where we are at the moment is at a development stage; our youth policy - anyone's youth policy - takes time to produce results and we're only about 3 years after starting from scratch. As has been said before, if you can build a reputation for bringing on young players and getting them into the first team (we've gone backwards a bit on that this season but I believe the manager when he says they just need a bit more time) you can in the long term attract young players that might otherwise have signed up for bigger teams.

 

You have a point about contracts but I think that most young players who are still developing would be and probably are easier to deal with when they are first breaking through and though we don't seem to be giving out any really long contracts now, I'm sure we would if the player showed the promise of being a really great player. And there is still the rule about a cut for player development.

 

On the argument of expense, I'd doubt the money we'd save on youth policy would let us sign anything much more than a couple of average players, nowhere near enough to make up for the possible lost revenue if we missed out on a saleable player. And again, our youth policy is still in its infancy (n.p.i.) - once it gets going properly, we will have young players able to act a decent support for the main squad (and maybe a few able to be part of the main squad). So you'll end up with more player cover for the same money.

 

If having a proper youth policy is such a waste of time, why do so many clubs of various sizes and solvency have one? That's not even mentioning the other important considerations, such as the enjoyment fans get out of seeing a young player break through into the team and the enthusiasm they can give to it.

 

Finally whoever's right or wrong in this, it can only be proven one way or the other by giving the youth policy some time and to me that means at least another 3 years, more like 5 to really test it. Of course the other way has been tested - picking up young players from here and there is what we used to do and I'd say that has always been hit and miss.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Mr Bunny