Jaggernaut Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Probably the most honest post i've read on this thread. Forget all the financial arguments, etc. If you feel Scottish then you must want independence. I assume that everybody voting for independence on the argument that we can survive on our own two feet and don't need England/ the union/ westminster will also agree with not joining the euro and basically being run from Brussels instead. The main thing that puts me off independence is that it wouldn't be independence. It would just be changing masters. Look at Ireland, Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal. All of these independent countries are having to implement financial cuts on orders/directions from Brussels. Maybe independence and joining the Euro would have worked at the start (Ireland certainly benefitted) but I honestly don't see the benefits in joining now. When we go for independence we should go from a position of strength. To join something that looks as if it could collapse any day would not be good for Scotland. Interesting. Many British nationalists who are against Scotland looking after its own affairs in the world claim that it's only due to the union that we have been able to survive the recent/current global economic crisis, so that's somehow good. Yet many of them also point the finger to the Eurozone and how the united zone is able to bail out Greece, Ireland etc and say that that is somehow bad. Where's the consistency in that? There is none! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Scruff Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Interesting. Many British nationalists who are against Scotland looking after its own affairs in the world claim that it's only due to the union that we have been able to survive the recent/current global economic crisis, so that's somehow good. Yet many of them also point the finger to the Eurozone and how the united zone is able to bail out Greece, Ireland etc and say that that is somehow bad. Where's the consistency in that? There is none! Fiscal union without political union doesn't work. That cuts both ways too. Political independence without fiscal independence doesn't work. Entirely consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Scruff Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Would it make us poorer or richer no one knows, they keep mentioning the Norway model, roughly the same population with some of the same resources and Norway on paper is very rich but... Norwegians have one of the highest rates of personel debt of anywhere in the world, partly down to the encouragements (through tax relief on your loans) by the goverment to take on debt, banks are owned by the goverment Norway has a terrible infrastructure, outwith oslo the roads are poor and you have to pay tolls (£2 a time to get near a city) to use them, on top of your road tax (£300 a year) plus the petrol is rougly £1.40 a liter and the new car price is at least twice that of a new car in the UK, and an 8 year old car will cost you almost as much as a new car in the UK due to them not losing there value at re sale We have to pay for our doctors fee's and prescriptions up to a point (first £300 a year if i remember correctly) Our income tax level is 36% on normal time and 50% on overtime We have high levels of poll tax Beer is roughly £7 for 0.4 liter in a bar, and £2.50 from the shop for a can Bread and milk will cost you roughly £4, and don't even think about buying chicken, although salmon is cheap. You have to shop around cans in this shop fresh stuff this shop etc etc Housing is extortianete here you will pay approx £1000 a month for a 2 bedroom unfurnished flat, not in the center. Norway and especially Stavanger were on there arse before the oil boom, stavanger was bankrupt with high unemployment and the norwegian government is so scared of it happening again it has not spent a penny of the money it has earned from oil, not even re-invested it in new technology for the future for when it does run out, Scotland doesn#t have that piggy bank, has a high level of debt and a ridiculous amount of people on benefit it has to pay for, where would that money come from, Norway has next to no unemployment so doesnt have that high level of payout. Also more importantly it is not part of the EU but is a EEA member so doesnt have to abide by some of its crazy laws. Norway also has more gas and oil production than the scottish sector so more income. Yes the standard of life is good here, but your outgoings are enormous and i know several people that had to leave as they were losing money by working here, and not by pissing it up the wall just living. I'd be very careful just pushing for independance before some party came out with what it really would cost the man in the street, as it could be his home and job if they mess it up That's a really helpful post - lots of stuff I wasn't aware of, although I've been to Norway a few times. There is this 'the grass is always greener' thing. I remember years ago talk of Shetland becoming independent from Scotland, or joining Norway. I see it's back on the agenda http://www.shetlink.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11546&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Interestingly the Shetland argument relates to their 'ownership' of the oil and gas fields and their historic racial ties to Norway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 That's a really helpful post - lots of stuff I wasn't aware of, although I've been to Norway a few times. There is this 'the grass is always greener' thing. I remember years ago talk of Shetland becoming independent from Scotland, or joining Norway. I see it's back on the agenda http://www.shetlink.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11546&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Interestingly the Shetland argument relates to their 'ownership' of the oil and gas fields and their historic racial ties to Norway... Rockall is the place to be in the future! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Scruff Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Rockall is the place to be in the future! The way things are going it'll end up an independent nation, 6 places below us in the FIFA rankings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 jaggy, We will always be forced to make cuts while we allow Westminster to dictate how little or how much money we receive, i am sick to the back teeth of this begging bowl mentality, that we have to be grateful for the crumbs thrown in our direction, while the money we put into this union is wasted on futile wars and Westminsters mismanagement. As for your "prove you can do the job" point, Jaggernaut and GrantB have already answered that adequately. no they havent they have just tried to side step it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Apparently 50% of East Germans miss the old DDR about 75% of old west Germans missed it too when most of there money was pumped into the east to rebuild it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Probably the most honest post i've read on this thread. Forget all the financial arguments, etc. If you feel Scottish then you must want independence. I assume that everybody voting for independence on the argument that we can survive on our own two feet and don't need England/ the union/ westminster will also agree with not joining the euro and basically being run from Brussels instead. The main thing that puts me off independence is that it wouldn't be independence. It would just be changing masters. Look at Ireland, Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal. All of these independent countries are having to implement financial cuts on orders/directions from Brussels. Maybe independence and joining the Euro would have worked at the start (Ireland certainly benefitted) but I honestly don't see the benefits in joining now. When we go for independence we should go from a position of strength. To join something that looks as if it could collapse any day would not be good for Scotland. what rubbish , i am Scottish i just don't think we would be better off as an independent nation and have not been shown anything to change my mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Would it make us poorer or richer no one knows, they keep mentioning the Norway model, roughly the same population with some of the same resources and Norway on paper is very rich but... Norwegians have one of the highest rates of personel debt of anywhere in the world, partly down to the encouragements (through tax relief on your loans) by the goverment to take on debt, banks are owned by the goverment Norway has a terrible infrastructure, outwith oslo the roads are poor and you have to pay tolls (£2 a time to get near a city) to use them, on top of your road tax (£300 a year) plus the petrol is rougly £1.40 a liter and the new car price is at least twice that of a new car in the UK, and an 8 year old car will cost you almost as much as a new car in the UK due to them not losing there value at re sale We have to pay for our doctors fee's and prescriptions up to a point (first £300 a year if i remember correctly) Our income tax level is 36% on normal time and 50% on overtime We have high levels of poll tax Beer is roughly £7 for 0.4 liter in a bar, and £2.50 from the shop for a can Bread and milk will cost you roughly £4, and don't even think about buying chicken, although salmon is cheap. You have to shop around cans in this shop fresh stuff this shop etc etc Housing is extortianete here you will pay approx £1000 a month for a 2 bedroom unfurnished flat, not in the center. Norway and especially Stavanger were on there arse before the oil boom, stavanger was bankrupt with high unemployment and the norwegian government is so scared of it happening again it has not spent a penny of the money it has earned from oil, not even re-invested it in new technology for the future for when it does run out, Scotland doesn#t have that piggy bank, has a high level of debt and a ridiculous amount of people on benefit it has to pay for, where would that money come from, Norway has next to no unemployment so doesnt have that high level of payout. Also more importantly it is not part of the EU but is a EEA member so doesnt have to abide by some of its crazy laws. Norway also has more gas and oil production than the scottish sector so more income. Yes the standard of life is good here, but your outgoings are enormous and i know several people that had to leave as they were losing money by working here, and not by pissing it up the wall just living. I'd be very careful just pushing for independance before some party came out with what it really would cost the man in the street, as it could be his home and job if they mess it up very good post which i doubt a lot of people know about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honved Posted October 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 On the basis that context is everything, I have had a look at some basic statistics following norgethistle's interesting post on the cost of living in Norway. I know that exchange rates and taxes need to be taken into consideration, but I found that in 2010 the UK average salary was £26,000 whilst in Norway, the average monthly salary was Kr36,700 which roughly equates to £4,000. So in basic terms, gross pay in Norway is about double what it is here, making a £7 beer equivalent to £3.50 and so on. One of the most interesting areas, which I stumbled on by chance, is that Norway has a much flatter reward structure across the grades of employee, with managerial staff getting around a third more than their staff whilst in the UK it's more like 50%. I don't want to take this thread into a cul de sac, batting statistics back and forth and ending up with three page posts that examine the per capita output of mung beans in Bhutan (let's leave that stuff to the politicians) but I do think that comparing Scotland with anywhere else is a bit daft, regardless of superficial similarities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 On the basis that context is everything, I have had a look at some basic statistics following norgethistle's interesting post on the cost of living in Norway. I know that exchange rates and taxes need to be taken into consideration, but I found that in 2010 the UK average salary was £26,000 whilst in Norway, the average monthly salary was Kr36,700 which roughly equates to £4,000. So in basic terms, gross pay in Norway is about double what it is here, making a £7 beer equivalent to £3.50 and so on. One of the most interesting areas, which I stumbled on by chance, is that Norway has a much flatter reward structure across the grades of employee, with managerial staff getting around a third more than their staff whilst in the UK it's more like 50%. I don't want to take this thread into a cul de sac, batting statistics back and forth and ending up with three page posts that examine the per capita output of mung beans in Bhutan (let's leave that stuff to the politicians) but I do think that comparing Scotland with anywhere else is a bit daft, regardless of superficial similarities. This needs to be said to the SNP who keep harking on about Norway due to population, resources and closeness geographically. Do i think it could work for Scotland? Yes if it was done correctly but there could be alot of hardship to get through for joe public firstly, but do i have faith that any of our politicians (from any party)could pull it off? No, I honestly believe with the cross party and in party fighting and ego#s within the partys it would be set up to benefit those at the top and end up putting scotland in a seriously worse position than it is now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 This needs to be said to the SNP who keep harking on about Norway due to population, resources and closeness geographically. Do i think it could work for Scotland? Yes if it was done correctly but there could be alot of hardship to get through for joe public firstly, but do i have faith that any of our politicians (from any party)could pull it off? No, I honestly believe with the cross party and in party fighting and ego#s within the partys it would be set up to benefit those at the top and end up putting scotland in a seriously worse position than it is now What do we have now with unionist parties, and look at the state of our society. What evidence do you have that makes you "honestly believe" that Scotland would be worse off once freed from London rule? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 What do we have now with unionist parties, and look at the state of our society. What evidence do you have that makes you "honestly believe" that Scotland would be worse off once freed from London rule? trams in Edinburgh, losing the income from the forth road bridge the parliament buildings the the alcohol policy but to name a few Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 what rubbish , i am Scottish i just don't think we would be better off as an independent nation and have not been shown anything to change my mind That was meant to be sarcasm. Maybe I should have used a smiley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 What do we have now with unionist parties, and look at the state of our society. What evidence do you have that makes you "honestly believe" that Scotland would be worse off once freed from London rule? Please read what i said Jaggernaut "Do i think it could work for Scotland? Yes if it was done correctly but there could be alot of hardship to get through for joe public firstly, but do i have faith that any of our politicians (from any party)could pull it off? No, I honestly believe with the cross party and in party fighting and ego#s within the partys it would be set up to benefit those at the top and end up putting scotland in a seriously worse position than it is now" My problem is that almost every politician who gets elected comes in for the good of the community and ends up feathering there own nest, its a career to make money these days whether getting onto boards of companys etc etc if this was set up there would be one shot at it, and do i think the politicians we have (on all partys) are good/straight enough to do it for the better good without looking to their futures no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) trams in Edinburgh, losing the income from the forth road bridge the parliament buildings the the alcohol policy but to name a few Jesus, look at the Millenium Dome, the fact that the Channel Tunnel was supposed to give Scotland a direct fast-train route to the continent (that's what the London government lied about to get European Funding), the complete and utter balls-up over a spanking new aircraft carrier (we cannae afford it, so will need to share it with France), which won't have any planes for years (cannae afford it, but we can afford billions on new nuclear weapons)..... Or don't you see Westminster government financial disasters? Edited to add: We're now told by London that we might be able to think about getting a high-speed rail link to London.....decades from now, well after much of middle England. We are being deliberately kept in underdeveloped circumstances for the benefit of our neighbours. Edited October 5, 2011 by Jaggernaut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Norwegian News trams in Edinburgh, losing the income from the forth road bridge the parliament buildings the the alcohol policy but to name a few And if they copy Norways policy as per the Norwegian news best of luck (run google translate) Norway has more binge drinking than anywhere else i have seen in the world, they will drink the same amount as we will in a week but in one night (and 90% of that in the house before they hit the town at eleven o'clock), every year several people in every region are blinded by illicit alchohal, and smuggling is rife from sweeden, and where i said its 7 quid a beer it works out at £9 a pint for local muck, try getting a bottle of wine here for the wekend, you have to be in the government owned shops before 3 o'clock on a saturday, and if its the day before a religious holiday its closed, The policy here doesnt work it just gives the government more money and increases the illegal alchohal trade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) My problem is that almost every politician who gets elected comes in for the good of the community and ends up feathering there own nest, its a career to make money these days whether getting onto boards of companys etc etc if this was set up there would be one shot at it, and do i think the politicians we have (on all partys) are good/straight enough to do it for the better good without looking to their futures no So what you're saying is that all politicians are in it for themselves (or at least end up that way; not a lot to disagree with there, I have to say), but that means we should do nothing and continue to be misgoverned and kept at a lower standard of living than we deserve by an English-interests dominated London government? That's similar to the sense of helplessness that Westminster likes to see in Scots, to make us feel dependent and incapable of changing their cosy position. Fortunately, the tide appears to be turning. Edited October 5, 2011 by Jaggernaut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Heron Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) Jesus, look at the Millenium Dome, the fact that the Channel Tunnel was supposed to give Scotland a direct fast-train route to the continent (that's what the London government lied about to get European Funding), the complete and utter balls-up over a spanking new aircraft carrier (we cannae afford it, so will need to share it with France), which won't have any planes for years (cannae afford it, but we can afford billions on new nuclear weapons)..... Or don't you see Westminster government financial disasters? Indeed - many such projects regardless of their provenance have been prone to dreadful project and/or contract management. But things are picking up in this area both in Holyrood and in local government. Thought you might want to have pointed out that the Scottish Parliament started off in Westminster with estimates that were, at best, inaccurate and, at worst, bare-faced lies. Edited October 5, 2011 by Allan Heron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 That was meant to be sarcasm. Maybe I should have used a smiley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Jesus, look at the Millenium Dome, the fact that the Channel Tunnel was supposed to give Scotland a direct fast-train route to the continent (that's what the London government lied about to get European Funding), the complete and utter balls-up over a spanking new aircraft carrier (we cannae afford it, so will need to share it with France), which won't have any planes for years (cannae afford it, but we can afford billions on new nuclear weapons)..... Or don't you see Westminster government financial disasters? Edited to add: We're now told by London that we might be able to think about getting a high-speed rail link to London.....decades from now, well after much of middle England. We are being deliberately kept in underdeveloped circumstances for the benefit of our neighbours. yes i can, my point is that in the union we can cope with these as an independent nation i don't think we can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 So what you're saying is that all politicians are in it for themselves (or at least end up that way; not a lot to disagree with there, I have to say), but that means we should do nothing and continue to be misgoverned and kept at a lower standard of living than we deserve by an English-interests dominated London government? That's similar to the sense of helplessness that Westminster likes to see in Scots, to make us feel dependent and incapable of changing their cosy position. Fortunately, the tide appears to be turning. Definetly not, i think we need to look at it in a different way, maybe if you stand for election you will get the same wage you had before plus normal expenses, and be banned from profiting out of it through directorships or think tanks etc, hey even hold your old job open for a max of 8 years... who knows but just now it doesnt work, it should be getting elected to make a change not to make a profit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Jaggernuat. If there is independence I doubt there will be a High Speed Train link to Scotland. Who would pay from Manchester up north especially before the border? The English Parliament would not want to pay for it or have much demand for it. Scotland would need it more so we would have more and more stand off's of that nature as we fight between who should pay and indeed who would pay. Scotland would need it built more to get to London and Europe. No Royal Navy means less ships to build on the Clyde and more closures and pain for the shipyard industry and the workers it supports. Close Faslane and the thousands of jobs it supports? You also say "continue to be misgoverned and kept at a lower standard of living than we deserve by an English-interests dominated London government?" Scotland's standard of living is very good especially when you take into account education, house prices and urban sprawl which a lot of south east England suffers from. Your tone makes me think you simply do not like the English. "English-interests dominated London government". Nationalists of any ilk like to group people together. Them and us. What is English interests? Is it South East England? Proud Yorkshire? Rural Cornwall? Industrial Midlands? Is it working class, middle class, landed gentry? London. Is it some kind of foriegn city? It could be argued as it more international than English. Multi-cultural, high immmigration, liberal with up to 100 000 Scots living in and around it. An unfounded accusation of "sense of helplessness that Westminster likes to see in Scots, to make us feel dependent and incapable of changing their cosy position." is paranoid, unsubstantative and to me wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Scruff Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) I think it boild down to the basics of whether you feel Scottish or not. Personally, it's not about whether the figures match up, it's whether you want to see your country stand up on it's own two feet and be able to make decisions concerning it's future without having to go cap in hand to Westminster for a share of what is in effect already ours! I'd vote yes even if it made me personally poorer. The way I look at it is I've too many responsibilities to ignore the likely economic/ fiscal impact. I run a business that employs a few dozen people and we sell our services throughout the UK. I have a family with 4 kids who will all be looking for opportunities in the future as well as security now. I live in a community that's not immune from the effects of economic decisions. I have a mortgage denominated in GBP. I need to know, not out of personal greed or opportunism, the implications of what I vote for. What is the SNP proposal for fiscal independence? On the Scottishness issue. I do feel Scottish. There's times when I feel Glaswegian, British, Scottish, European and just a plain individual. It's all a question of context and not enough justification (for me anyway) to say that Secession is fine irrespective of the detail. Edited October 5, 2011 by Mr Scruff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 The way I look at it is I've too many responsibilities to ignore the likely economic/ fiscal impact. I run a business that employs a few dozen people and we sell our services throughout the UK. I have a family with 4 kids who will all be looking for opportunities in the future as well as security now. I live in a community that's not immune from the effects of economic decisions. I have a mortgage denominated in GBP. I need to know, not out of personal greed or opportunism, the implications of what I vote for. What is the SNP proposal for fiscal independence? On the Scottishness issue. I do feel Scottish. There's times when I feel Glaswegian, British, Scottish, European and just a plain individual. It's all a question of context and not enough justification (for me anyway) to say that Secession is fine irrespective of the detail. As would most folk, all the nationalistic feelings would go right out the window IF we were told that independence would hit the normal joe heavily in the pocket, as we all have familys too feed and roofs above our heads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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