Scotland Game

[hebridean jag]

Two things:

 

The team is better in every respect from the one the manager inherited a fairly short while ago. That`s to me pretty much unarguable. So, unless someone else is stepping forward to take the credit why is suddenly open season on the guy?

 

Fletcher walked out on the national team. Like it or not, he`s slapped everyone who cares about the National Team in the face (obviously not everyone on this forum). His return to the squad, even allowing for precedence and need would merely add insult to injury. He should never be allowed anywhere near Hampden in the future unless he buys a ticket. Anyone who thinks anything else is wrong

[twinny]

I thought Naismith came up short against the Czechs. He's quick, energetic, and has good movement but his first touch- an absolute essential at this level- is anything but comfortable. The result of this was that he gave the ball away- most notably just before the Czechs scored their opening goal. He was marginally better against Lithuania. He scored a decent goal but his goal to chances missed ratio suggests he's far from the shark in the box that he thinks he is.

 

And he's always exactly the same for Rangers. The thing is they generate so many chances against SPL teams that he continues to look half decent.

[Stephen1876]

Two things:

 

The team is better in every respect from the one the manager inherited a fairly short while ago. That`s to me pretty much unarguable. So, unless someone else is stepping forward to take the credit why is suddenly open season on the guy?

 

Fletcher walked out on the national team. Like it or not, he`s slapped everyone who cares about the National Team in the face (obviously not everyone on this forum). His return to the squad, even allowing for precedence and need would merely add insult to injury. He should never be allowed anywhere near Hampden in the future unless he buys a ticket. Anyone who thinks anything else is wrong

 

Can see what you are saying, but providing we beat Liechtenstein and lose to Spain, we will only have finished one point better off than we did in our last campaign, in a group which was at least of an equal standard.

[Mr Bunny]

I thought Naismith came up short against the Czechs. He's quick, energetic, and has good movement but his first touch- an absolute essential at this level- is anything but comfortable. The result of this was that he gave the ball away- most notably just before the Czechs scored their opening goal. He was marginally better against Lithuania. He scored a decent goal but his goal to chances missed ratio suggests he's far from the shark in the box that he thinks he is.

 

I think he's a player that's gone backwards since he went to Rangers - even allowing that injuries set him back.

[Steven H]

I thought Naismith came up short against the Czechs. He's quick, energetic, and has good movement but his first touch- an absolute essential at this level- is anything but comfortable. The result of this was that he gave the ball away- most notably just before the Czechs scored their opening goal. He was marginally better against Lithuania. He scored a decent goal but his goal to chances missed ratio suggests he's far from the shark in the box that he thinks he is.

 

Agreed 100%, but in Naismiths favour is the fact he was in those scoring positions in the first place. With the formation we are playing we need midfielders pushing forward when they get the chance, against the Czechs only Fletcher was doing this.

[hebridean jag]

Can see what you are saying, but providing we beat Liechtenstein and lose to Spain, we will only have finished one point better off than we did in our last campaign, in a group which was at least of an equal standard.

Stephen, as someone who obviously watches football the correct comparison is which team is better, the current one or the one that took part in the last championships. To me, the answer is obvious. There are obvious deficencies in central defence and up front but the current team is still demonstrably better than those that went before in the recent past.

[erzamacaroonbars]

Interesting debate going on here! Despite having said Fletcher should be a shoe in, I perhaps I am being a bit hypocritical there, I really never wanted to see Kris Boyd back in the team and I didn't want Barry Ferguson back either, its not all ant-Rangers though as I wasn't too impresses when MoJo did much the same and I would have told him to sling his hook. However, I don't really know the details of the Fletcher vs Levein thing.

As far as the team getting better, I'm not so sure the team that played the Czechs was any better than the team that lost to Italy at Hampden. I do think we have a decent goalie, I quite like both Hutton and Berra and agree that Caldwell is not the best, I think the fact Davie Weir still gets a game says it all, he was never International class in his prime so how can he be now he's in his 80's? I like our midfield, Adams, Robson, Fletcher, Brown, Morrison, Dorrans all good players but up front virtually nothing. Kenny Miller I like but even he doesn't strike fear into any opponent. Stephen Fletcher would improve that but possibly not by much, hopefully Goodwillie will come good (providing he stays out of jail) and there is not a great deal on the horizon in terms of forward but you never know, the next Je Jordan may be out there somewhere!

And after all that is said and done I still think Craig Levein is a diddy, Peter Houston is a diddy and did anybody ever think Kenny Black would ever get anywhere near the national squad?? But they should be given time, at the most till we attempt to qualify for Brazil, but if there is any repeat of this no strikers malarky then all of the management team need to go! Infact if we continue to play 1 striker at home in important must win games they should go then also!

[Blackpool Jags]

I'm glad some posters have referred to the 'no strikers in Prague' fiasco. Firstly, I wouldn't have given Levein the job to begin with, but I'll always give any new manager support until he proves he doesn't warrant it (case in point - Campbell with us). I might just even have given Levein a temporary reprieve had he been honest enough to admit that he fecked up hugely in Prague, but - no, he stands by his decision to go with no striker in what was a vital and winnable game there for us.

 

You can never rectify your mistakes if you don't/won't recognise them and learn from them accordingly. It's not as if he can be unaware of the controversy around his tactics in that game. Furthermore, Charlie Adam didn't see competitive action in the group until half time in the Spain game. That's enough for me. I say that Levien must go sooner rather than later simply because he's never going to get it right, or even anything approaching right. Even if we somehow manage to pull the bodies out the burning building alive and qualify for the finals, Levein must be removed PDQ to avoid us being atomised on the big stage in Poland/Ukraine. Surely Gordon Strachan or Walter Smith could at least avoid (a degree of) the humiliation that Levein will ensure as our fate whether we qualify either this or next time round.

[honved]

Levein reminds me of Iain Gray. He had a real go at Al Lamont of the BBC after the Lithuania game, for having the temerity to suggest that "some people" ie not Lamont had suggested that the way Scotland had lined up was not an attacking formation.

 

He does not have a shred of humour or humility in his public persona which makes it hard to feel sympathy for him. Personally, I think he's useless and we are wallowing in mediocrity at present. He is better than Burley though and way better than Strachan would be.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Perhaps the only difference between Levein and a better manager would be he'd manage to get us into the play offs. Might even manage to qualify but we'd probably be humiliated in the group stage.

Getting a more suitable manager would be an improvement. Humiliation in the group stage would be an improvement as well but I think we'd be kidding ourselves on in believing that a change of manager would bring hugely significant change in fortune.

It's the lack of leaders on the park that's badly missed. Guys who don't have to look over at the bench every couple of minutes for inspiration and instruction. To repeat we've had Scotland bosses before that weren't let's say the "strongest" of managers but have decent track records and many of our best results occurred under their reign. I don't feel that success was all down to playing ability.

As Lambie would say we need a few heid cases.

[Mr Bunny]

He does not have a shred of humour or humility in his public persona which makes it hard to feel sympathy for him. Personally, I think he's useless and we are wallowing in mediocrity at present. He is better than Burley though and way better than Strachan would be.

 

Burley was stabbed in the back by a faction in the SFA that didn't want him so it's hard to judge how well he'd have done with proper support (from certain players too). Strachan has won things - maybe Celtic had money but they still have and haven't done anything since Strachan left. Scotland gig might suit him as he seems to get up people's noses a lot and not being with the team day-to-day might help with that.

 

Humiliation in the group stage would be an improvement as well but I think we'd be kidding ourselves on in believing that a change of manager would bring hugely significant change in fortune.

 

Humiliation in the group stage would be a huge improvement on what we've had in recent years. I woudldn't expect us to progress from a group stage but if we were to improve enough to get there there's a good chance we wouldn't get humiliated even if we went out.

 

Point about leaders is a good one as there seem to be few about in any team - the few that exist usually end up with the big teams. Just like every team used to have two good wingers every team used to have a guy that was their driving force: these guys are so rare now and the fear of doing nothing unless the manager tells them too seems to have taken hold almost everywhere.

[beep0608]

Interesting debate going on here! Despite having said Fletcher should be a shoe in, I perhaps I am being a bit hypocritical there, I really never wanted to see Kris Boyd back in the team and I didn't want Barry Ferguson back either, its not all ant-Rangers though as I wasn't too impresses when MoJo did much the same and I would have told him to sling his hook. However, I don't really know the details of the Fletcher vs Levein thing.

As far as the team getting better, I'm not so sure the team that played the Czechs was any better than the team that lost to Italy at Hampden. I do think we have a decent goalie, I quite like both Hutton and Berra and agree that Caldwell is not the best, I think the fact Davie Weir still gets a game says it all, he was never International class in his prime so how can he be now he's in his 80's? I like our midfield, Adams, Robson, Fletcher, Brown, Morrison, Dorrans all good players but up front virtually nothing. Kenny Miller I like but even he doesn't strike fear into any opponent. Stephen Fletcher would improve that but possibly not by much, hopefully Goodwillie will come good (providing he stays out of jail) and there is not a great deal on the horizon in terms of forward but you never know, the next Je Jordan may be out there somewhere!

And after all that is said and done I still think Craig Levein is a diddy, Peter Houston is a diddy and did anybody ever think Kenny Black would ever get anywhere near the national squad?? But they should be given time, at the most till we attempt to qualify for Brazil, but if there is any repeat of this no strikers malarky then all of the management team need to go! Infact if we continue to play 1 striker at home in important must win games they should go then also!

 

On the radio last night I heard references to some interview involving Gary Caldwell and/or Steven Fletcher and the suggestion was that Caldwell and Fletcher don't get on at all well, and Caldwell is seen as one of the lynchpins in the team, and what he says goes. For me, the more I watch Caldwell the more I see what Celtic fans talked about often when he played for them. Calamity Caldwell, or something like that. Just think back to Norway for a prime example. Perhaps he's Levein's blue eyed boy, in which case Steven Fletcher becomes unwelcome. In that case, if I was in Fletcher's boots, I'd be tempted to walk. I could be way off the mark here, but that would make me understand walking away from the national team, and I'm a fan, and supporter, Espana 82 footsoldier. In that position and I'm sure many of you would too. It happens all the time at club level but there is the transfer option. That's not an international option, unless you're uncapped and have an Irish granny, or whatever.

 

I'm not saying that I like or dislike Kris Boyd, Duncan Ferguson, Barry Ferguson, Lee McCulloch, Steven Fletcher, and others who have done the same, as I don't know any of them, but if you're with people of influence who you can't be around or work with then staying away is understandable. I'm not saying correct, as I'm sure others put up with similar crap too, but it is understandable, to me.

[hebridean jag]

 

 

I'm not saying that I like or dislike Kris Boyd, Duncan Ferguson, Barry Ferguson, Lee McCulloch, Steven Fletcher, and others who have done the same, as I don't know any of them, but if you're with people of influence who you can't be around or work with then staying away is understandable. I'm not saying correct, as I'm sure others put up with similar crap too, but it is understandable, to me.

Sorry, I absolutely fail to understand why you can think any reason to walk away from the National Team is either acceptable or understandable. Not having a go but these people are rejecting an opportunity that the rest of us (although apparently not some on this forum) can only dream of.

 

To me, their reasoning/motivation is utterly meaningless.

[twinny]

Sorry, I absolutely fail to understand why you can think any reason to walk away from the National Team is either acceptable or understandable. Not having a go but these people are rejecting an opportunity that the rest of us (although apparently not some on this forum) can only dream of.

 

To me, their reasoning/motivation is utterly meaningless.

 

I quit the Scotland u18 water polo team because the manager was a prick, so I know exactly what Steven Fletcher is going through

[The Cup]

Two things:

 

The team is better in every respect from the one the manager inherited a fairly short while ago. That`s to me pretty much unarguable. So, unless someone else is stepping forward to take the credit why is suddenly open season on the guy?

 

Fletcher walked out on the national team. Like it or not, he`s slapped everyone who cares about the National Team in the face (obviously not everyone on this forum). His return to the squad, even allowing for precedence and need would merely add insult to injury. He should never be allowed anywhere near Hampden in the future unless he buys a ticket. Anyone who thinks anything else is wrong

 

McGregor stuck 2 fingers up at the Scotland fans yet you didn't mention him.

Fletcher criticised Levein, rightly, for taking 4 (?) strikers to the Czech Republic and playing none of them.

What Fletcher did was not as bad was McGregor did.

 

Scotland have the best players they've had for years and Levein couldn't even organise them beat Lichtenstein or Lithuania comfortably. He needs sacked.

[lennythistle]

Sorry, I absolutely fail to understand why you can think any reason to walk away from the National Team is either acceptable or understandable. Not having a go but these people are rejecting an opportunity that the rest of us (although apparently not some on this forum) can only dream of.

 

To me, their reasoning/motivation is utterly meaningless.

 

But turning your back on the Jags, that's ok , isn't it ?

[beep0608]

Sorry, I absolutely fail to understand why you can think any reason to walk away from the National Team is either acceptable or understandable. Not having a go but these people are rejecting an opportunity that the rest of us (although apparently not some on this forum) can only dream of.

 

To me, their reasoning/motivation is utterly meaningless.

 

Of course, none of us are ever likely to be in that position, but if we were, and we came across people who we could not get on with in any way, and maybe felt we were being shafted by, I can't claim that I would be so strong and principled as to put up with it. I once had a nightmare of a job that I walked out of after 3 days, and I never regretted that decision. Maybe these are invalid comparisons, and maybe I'm giving far too much benefit of doubt to the likes of Fletcher, but I'm just trying to see things as they might really be.

 

Incidentally, despite what I said earlier, I do actually dislike Barry Ferguson, as he went way beyond what we're talking about here, and so did McGregor, and that's another black mark against Levein in my book, in begging Ferguson to come back, a player I've never rated anyway.

Edited September 9, 2011 by beep0608

[JaggyThistle]

Really surprised by the apparant "hatred" some people have for levein. Bit OTT in my opinion.

 

Gie the guy a chance ffs

[hebridean jag]

But turning your back on the Jags, that's ok , isn't it ?

So the money I plough into the Centenary Fund and the merchandising I buy for the family is worth squat I take it?

 

Bit of a contradiction in giving someone regular funds and turning your back on them...........isn`t it?

[hebridean jag]

McGregor stuck 2 fingers up at the Scotland fans yet you didn't mention him.

Fletcher criticised Levein, rightly, for taking 4 (?) strikers to the Czech Republic and playing none of them.

What Fletcher did was not as bad was McGregor did.

 

Scotland have the best players they've had for years and Levein couldn't even organise them beat Lichtenstein or Lithuania comfortably. He needs sacked.

McGregor has never declined a call up and has always insisted that it`s the great honour it is.

 

Fletcher can criticise the manager all he wants but the fact remains he has refused to play for his country.

 

He`s wrong and you`re wrong.

[jaggybunnet]

Really surprised by the apparant "hatred" some people have for levein. Bit OTT in my opinion.

 

Gie the guy a chance ffs

 

 

he had that with the 4-6-0 squad and his tactics are dire, and is to defensive, i would rather go out fighting than going out anyway playing that dross. could agree with being defensive against spain but against the rest it is pathetic.

Edited September 10, 2011 by jaggybunnet

[Blackpool Jags]

he had that with the 4-6-0 squad and his tactics are dire, and is to defensive, i would rather go out fighting than going out anyway playing that dross. could agree with being defensive against spain but against the rest it is pathetic.

 

Blackpool Jags & Jaggybunnet in total agreement shocker!

 

The 'give Avril a chance/bin him now' debate will no doubt roll along for a while to come as we'll probably beat the powerhouse of Liechtenstein then lose to Spain, and just miss out on qualification. But as regards the manager situation, surely all any of us want in a manager is someone who'll (i) get the team playing to at least 90% of its potential - through a combination of motivational qualities and having some basic football savvy, and (ii) at least make some basic attempt to entertain the fans and instil some fighting spirit into the players who, in theory, shouldn't need too much of a stimulus from the manager to put in a shift for their country.

 

Levein, I'm afraid to say, has failed spectacularly on both counts above; he clearly possesses neither the most rudimentary idea of how to approach a competitive international fixture selection-wise, nor appears able to motivate his charges to put in that extra 5% which can be the difference between success and glorious failure.

 

You can give him as much time as you want, but in the end, every game he remains in charge is a game less that an inevitable successor has to spend trying to undo the damage that Levein has caused and continues to cause.

 

If I'd ever gone to a Thistle away game, against any opposition, and Campbell had gone with a 4-6-0 formation, I, and I suspect many others, post-match, would've been pounding the doors of the team entrance demanding his dismissal and not simply becoming part of a growing crescendo to have him removed after a long period of stagnation and decline as happened. He'd have been toast there and then and rightly so.

[Mr Bunny]

Most folk are going on about the 4-6-0 formation because of its defensiveness. The other thing less mentioned is how ineffective it was - maybe another set of players could have made it work but not ours.

 

The real point is that 1) the formation looked ineffective very early on yet no changes were made.

 

On top of that these points that other posters have made are still valid:

2) The few times we got at them they looked weak defensively. No attempt was made by the manager to take advantage of this by either substitution or change of tactics.

3) Not even the slightest acknowledgement that he may have made a mistake by the manager. I've seen plenty of top managers (who've all done much more than CL) admit they got things wrong. Our guy doesn't. He really asks for the criticism he gets.

 

Having said that I'm afraid that barring a 0-6 defeat by Lichtenstein his job is safe until well through the world cup campaign.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Mr Bunny

[Vladimir Putin]

This qualifying campaign has been simply dire. Both Lithuania games were poor performances, especially the away game where we seemed content with a draw, the Liechenstein home game was utterly dreadful and we were incredibly lucky to win that, and this is all before we even get to the shambles that was the Prague game, which was arguably a sacking offence in itself as BJ says. And all this has been achieved with a squad that is better than it has been - players like Fletcher (Darren, that is), Dorrans, Hutton, Adam etc are better than we have had recently. A good international manager has to get the best from what, in Scotland's case, are limited resources, and Levein isn't doing that. Burley didn't get the luxury of a failed campaign to settle in to international management, and I see no reason why Levein should.

[beep0608]

McGregor has never declined a call up and has always insisted that it`s the great honour it is.

 

Fletcher can criticise the manager all he wants but the fact remains he has refused to play for his country.

 

He`s wrong and you`re wrong.

 

Who's wrong? It's all about opinions, I think I'm right but I'm not calling you wrong. Anyway, so feckin' what. I don't see the point in this any longer, or football really. MOTD is on just now but I'm flicking round other channels now. The game is a joke from top to bottom. I'll be back at Firhill alright, and still care about the national team, but that apart? Football is no longer cool, in fact there is steam rising.