Not Looking Good.............

[firhillfill]

I hope you're right as there are more fans like this below out there and I do include myself in that unfortunately.

It's unreal the amount of fans that have lost interest over the last few years. I include myself in that. Until recently I'd try to go to every game I could possibly get to, but the incentives not there anymore, I'm sick of all of the things mentioned previously and don't see my interest returning untill we get rid of these guys who are clearly destroying the club. I would support any type of fan takeover etc, but as has been mentioned there doen't seem to be anything actually happening with that. Alot of people seem to want it but noone seems to want to do anything about it.

[Steven H]

An interesting discussion in here and I'm surprised to find myself agreeing with people I normally disagree with. What's happening tho is that we are going round and round in circles, we've had these discussions, we know what peoples problems are with regards to the Boards decisions and we know the opinions of some with regards to the Jags Trust. What it all boils down to is that it's all old news and nothing can be done to change what happened.

 

I agree with Lady Isobel and ask if there is anything that can be done to get the momentum back and sort ourselves out as a group of fans? That would likely require a complete fresh start, maybe even a new direction, and the return of the folk Trotter talks about (apparently they were influential).

 

That unfortunately is not likely to happen because some people can't let the past go and focus on what to do in the future. I'm not happy with a lot of things going on at the Club (past or present) but I dont like the 'things aint going how I want them so am no playin' attitude. The past is gone and nothing will change what's happened, what we need to do is find a way forward without harping on about past mistakes. What's the alternative???

[Tom Stronach]

Folk who feel that way about Partick Thistle should do us all a favour and take their 'support' somewhere else.

 

What an incredibly stupid and ignorant statement.

[Tom Stronach]

The past is gone and nothing will change what's happened, what we need to do is find a way forward without harping on about past mistakes. What's the alternative???

 

It's time for the people on here who are constantly moaning about the way the club is run (and I include myself) to get off their arses and actually do something about it. I want to start a thread on this, but I really haven't a clue where to start. I am of the opinion that we should be trying to acheive what Stirling have, with their fans taking control of the club. If other people on here are thinking along similar lines, then please put your proposals to the forum and hopefully we could try and get something sorted. Be it putting proposals to the Jags Trust or forming a completely new group and starting from scratch. I honestly believe we have people in our support who could make something happen.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Tom Stronach

[GrantB]

It's time for the people on here who are constantly moaning about the way the club is run (and I include myself) to get off their arses and actually do something about it. I want to start a thread on this, but I really haven't a clue where to start. I am of the opinion that we should be trying to acheive what Stirling have, with their fans taking control of the club. If other people on here are thinking along similar lines, then please put your proposals to the forum and hopefully we could try and get something sorted. Be it putting proposals to the Jags Trust or forming a completely new group and starting from scratch. I honestly believe we have people in our support who could make something happen.

 

Sadly, I have less faith in some of the trust board than I do the club board. And that's saying something!

 

Otherwise, I agree with your sentiment.

[McKennan]

@ McKennan

 

The investment in Propco was for the benefit of Partick Thistle was it not? According to their press release at the time it claimed it was- ignore the 5% exit premium and fact they're life long fans.

 

http://www.ptfc.co.uk/news/2009-2010/august_2009/club_press_release

 

 

As an aside to that, it's hardly an interest free loan. At the end of the day I don't have too much of a quibble with that as they are businessmen. However the fact the Trust time and time again give money to the club for what in return? (MacNamra's wages last season initially spring to mind). In other words, one rule for one director in terms of giving money and expecting an investment and another rule for another director, namely the Trust.

 

 

The current BOD would happily see the club die now imo. Another scheme- Propco- hasn't worked they way they set out but they are no closer in admitting so. If they had any interest in seeing this club survive they would step aside and give the shares to the Trust. The same shares which cost them nothing except now time, which i'm sure after what they have received from the club over past number of years has been more than repaid.

 

 

At this moment the Trusts shares are worthless. They have a rep on the board who can't report back to anyone (or certainly not the full membership) due to confidentiality issues and then Hughes, Cowan, Beattie and co more or less gang up and push through Propco amongst other things.

 

These guys aren't accountable to anyone except themselves.

 

Who sanctioned Eddie Prentice's (part-time) wage for more or less something guys on here offered to do for nothing? (Centenery Fund draw)

 

Who sanctioned the moving of hospitality at the same time as looking to move the club to a 'new' site without waiting to see what the outcome was to be?

 

Who sanctioned the demolition of the City End terracing without the necessary paperwork being in place so that there would be something there other than a Bing?

 

Who sanctioned the transfer of Brown McMaster's shares to his kids/wife? (What ever happened there? All went very quiet after initial mumblings of they can't do that without consent of the board.)

I'm sure there are plenty out there who could add to the list.

 

Bottom line is nothing will happen as they (the B.O.D.) have driven a wedge between supporters. As I mentioned previously, more or less scunnered folk who did have the best interests of the club at heart into doing something else on a Sat afternoon.

 

I don't have any reason to argue against most of that, Trotter. However, I can't see those involved simply letting the club die. There is inertia - perhaps because there are some people simply out of their depths. Again, that's as much fishing as anything else.

 

Question: does anyone have any idea how many directors have made personal financial guarantees on behalf of the club? (This is not to be confused with asking about wages, by the way. )

[Trotter]

I don't have any reason to argue against most of that, Trotter. However, I can't see those involved simply letting the club die. There is inertia - perhaps because there are some people simply out of their depths. Again, that's as much fishing as anything else.

 

Question: does anyone have any idea how many directors have made personal financial guarantees on behalf of the club? (This is not to be confused with asking about wages, by the way. )

 

I think the question is another for the Jags Trust Board.

 

Can I also ask again about the other 50% of the ground that Propco don't own. Is there a way that the supporters in form of the trust, if it was possible to raise that amount of money, can purchase it? Or do Propco have 1st refusal on this also?

 

If this was discussed at the time the whole Propco issue was being discussed then I apologise as I missed it.

[Steven H]

It's time for the people on here who are constantly moaning about the way the club is run (and I include myself) to get off their arses and actually do something about it. I want to start a thread on this, but I really haven't a clue where to start. I am of the opinion that we should be trying to acheive what Stirling have, with their fans taking control of the club. If other people on here are thinking along similar lines, then please put your proposals to the forum and hopefully we could try and get something sorted. Be it putting proposals to the Jags Trust or forming a completely new group and starting from scratch. I honestly believe we have people in our support who could make something happen.

 

I have soome thoughts on a different direction for the JT and at least 1 JTB member is aware of these thoughts. Disbanding the JT and replacing it was one idea but given the shares issues I spoke about earlier that is not really viable. The Jags Trust are, as L-I-B says, the only show in town and we need to find a way to make that work. I agree that we have people in our support capable of making things happen and some of them are actually on the JTB now, but there are also people who could do great work but are disillussion with the JT (hence the reason for a new direction).

 

steelie-toes (Ailsa) produced a couple of surveys and the results clearly show that JT members and non-JT members agree that something needs to change. There are laws which govern supporters trusts I think and this may make wholesale changes difficult but something has to give.

 

The 'Stirling Albion model' is something to explore but I haven't really considered it in relation to what I would suggest but if we are to look at adopting something similar we must first sort out the problems that exist in our support.

 

All just imo of course!

 

In reply to Trotter, do you think we as a group of fans could raise the £1.8m required to purchase the other 50% of Firhill even if the Club were prepared to sell? I seriously doubt it but the idea is good even if it's a touch on the romantic side.

[Trotter]

I have soome thoughts on a different direction for the JT and at least 1 JTB member is aware of these thoughts. Disbanding the JT and replacing it was one idea but given the shares issues I spoke about earlier that is not really viable. The Jags Trust are, as L-I-B says, the only show in town and we need to find a way to make that work. I agree that we have people in our support capable of making things happen and some of them are actually on the JTB now, but there are also people who could do great work but are disillussion with the JT (hence the reason for a new direction).

 

steelie-toes (Ailsa) produced a couple of surveys and the results clearly show that JT members and non-JT members agree that something needs to change. There are laws which govern supporters trusts I think and this may make wholesale changes difficult but something has to give.

 

The 'Stirling Albion model' is something to explore but I haven't really considered it in relation to what I would suggest but if we are to look at adopting something similar we must first sort out the problems that exist in our support.

 

All just imo of course!

 

In reply to Trotter, do you think we as a group of fans could raise the £1.8m required to purchase the other 50% of Firhill even if the Club were prepared to sell? I seriously doubt it but the idea is good even if it's a touch on the romantic side.

 

The figure I kept seeing quoted that these guys paid for 50% was £1m but don't know the exact amount. Perhaps £1m is a bit fanciful but why not even 10% or 25% of the 50% share that's left?

 

At the start of this I asked who had 1st refusal on the second 50% and that was just my curiousity. It's bringing up the whole Propco debate again but still rankles with me as does the McMaster share fiasco and the lack of clarity with them.

 

Is that my imagination also, or was that really never clearly answered either?

[Steven H]

The figure I kept seeing quoted that these guys paid for 50% was £1m but don't know the exact amount. Perhaps £1m is a bit fanciful but why not even 10% or 25% of the 50% share that's left?

 

Yes but it was 50% of half the stadium, I think they paid 900k for it meaning the other 50% of half the stadium remained with the Club, thus meaning the overall value of that land was 1.8m. The overall valuation of the stadium was £3.6m IIRC so therefore I'd expect the remaining parts of the stadium where Propco have no investment would be valued at roughly 1.8m (although that valuation must surely have dropped if this land cannot be developed, as has been suggested by people more clued up then me). As for buying a percentage of that land, STJ raised about 100k and, without wanting to open up a debate about that figure, I'm not sure we'd raise that sort of money to buy a percentage of Firhill.

 

At the start of this I asked who had 1st refusal on the second 50% and that was just my curiousity. It's bringing up the whole Propco debate again but still rankles with me as does the McMaster share fiasco and the lack of clarity with them.

 

I don't know if anyone has first refusal but I agree completely about the lack of clarity over the issues you mention. Maybe a JT with more active members would have had a louder voice and been able to put more pressure on those concerned, but the infighting (maybe not the right word) amongst our support has played into the hands of people who may be looking to get the best deal for themselves (i.e. Directors with dual interests in the Club AND Propco and McMaster & associates).

 

Is that my imagination also, or was that really never clearly answered either?

 

Not your imagination, fact!

Edited July 8, 2010 by Steven H

[Trotter]

@Steven H: I agree with what you said previously about moving the Jags Trust in a different direction as the direction it's taking just now seems pretty aimless and, in my opinion, has been since the mass resignations after 1876 club and Centenery Fund merger.

 

I have no idea what the answer is but for the Trust to go anywhere it has to change (again) as from the outside looking in, for me, it's sitting far to close to the B.O.D. I'm not saying that it should put obstacles in the way at every opportunity but in it's present form it's not doing it's job. My final point about McMaster's shares and your answer to it suggests that is the case and perhaps that our thinking is not to dissimilar.

 

Thank you. Like I said, my curiousity.

 

Edited July 8, 2010 by Trotter

[McKennan]

I think the question is another for the Jags Trust Board.

 

Can I also ask again about the other 50% of the ground that Propco don't own. Is there a way that the supporters in form of the trust, if it was possible to raise that amount of money, can purchase it? Or do Propco have 1st refusal on this also?

 

If this was discussed at the time the whole Propco issue was being discussed then I apologise as I missed it.

 

 

You're most likely right. Frankly, I'd have any supporters' group run a mile from the issue you suggest above. One bitten, twice shy. However, I would be very interested to see a fans' group talk to the club about defining its intellectual property (no jokes please) and putting that under the control of the massed support so leastways the name and heritage survive in some form.

[Guest Argus]

I haven't a clue who is involved with the supporters trust, but as far as I can see all they do is act as the fund raising arm of the Board. Nothing wrong with that but clearly what they are not is performing the role of representing the supporters.

 

Steven H suggests there are secret talks going on with elements of the supporters trust. Isn't that part of the problem that a body which doesn't represent the fans seems to think it can go and discuss important issues less than openly. If you are going to critsise the Board for paying fans not enough respect isn't the supporters trust guilty of exactly the same charge?

[Steven H]

I haven't a clue who is involved with the supporters trust, but as far as I can see all they do is act as the fund raising arm of the Board. Nothing wrong with that but clearly what they are not is performing the role of representing the supporters.

 

Steven H suggests there are secret talks going on with elements of the supporters trust. Isn't that part of the problem that a body which doesn't represent the fans seems to think it can go and discuss important issues less than openly. If you are going to critsise the Board for paying fans not enough respect isn't the supporters trust guilty of exactly the same charge?

 

No I don't, I was refering to my thoughts on ways the JT could be developed that were sent to one Jags Trust Board member...and that was a good 10 months ago. If you ask me, its the lack of respect shown to the Trust that is the problem, by fans and the BoD.

 

Just to clear up any confusion!

Edited July 8, 2010 by Steven H

[Guest Argus]

No I don't, I was refering to my thoughts on ways the JT could be developed that were sent to one Jags Trust Board member...and that was a good 10 months ago. If you ask me, its the lack of respect shown to the Trust that is the problem, by fans and the BoD.

 

Just to clear up any confusion!

Thanks for that I clearly misunderstood you, however you then go on to contradict yourself, surely?

If you as a fan raise an issue with a supposed supporters organisation 10 months ago and have had no reply, doesn't that imply a lack of respect to a fan, rather than as you suggest fans showing lack of respect for the said organisation?

 

The Board is frequently accused of such type of action yet I can say I've always had a reply to anything i have raised with the club. I might not like the answer but I do get one.

[Steven H]

Thanks for that I clearly misunderstood you, however you then go on to contradict yourself, surely?

If you as a fan raise an issue with a supposed supporters organisation 10 months ago and have had no reply, doesn't that imply a lack of respect to a fan, rather than as you suggest fans showing lack of respect for the said organisation?

 

The Board is frequently accused of such type of action yet I can say I've always had a reply to anything i have raised with the club. I might not like the answer but I do get one.

 

Again you presume, I never said I didnt get a reply. I did get a reply and was respectfully treated as well as treated as an individual...unlike the BoD who have the old 'copy and paste' reply email set aside for each area of questions. My thoughts/ideas might not be ground-breaking or radical and I didn't call for action on anything I raised so there is no issue there!

 

Fans do show a lack of respect to the Trust and that has been evident on this forum, the last forum, the one before that and probably theharrywraggs forum too, not to mention the low percentage of fans who are members. Does the JT deserve that lack of respect? I cant speak for others but imo no they dont, they are a bunch of Thistle fans trying to do a job that is near impossible because the fans don't appear to back the Trust, thus allowing the BoD to disrespect them also (see the Propco 'no information given' fiasco for proof of that disrespect).

[Guest Argus]

Again you presume, I never said I didnt get a reply. I did get a reply and was respectfully treated as well as treated as an individual...unlike the BoD who have the old 'copy and paste' reply email set aside for each area of questions. My thoughts/ideas might not be ground-breaking or radical and I didn't call for action on anything I raised so there is no issue there!

 

Fans do show a lack of respect to the Trust and that has been evident on this forum, the last forum, the one before that and probably theharrywraggs forum too, not to mention the low percentage of fans who are members. Does the JT deserve that lack of respect? I cant speak for others but imo no they dont, they are a bunch of Thistle fans trying to do a job that is near impossible because the fans don't appear to back the Trust, thus allowing the BoD to disrespect them also (see the Propco 'no information given' fiasco for proof of that disrespect).

ok fair enough.

 

All I can say is that I have never had a 'copy and paste' reply from the club only because I've teneded to write and get a written reply. Old fashioned I know but I there you go. Like I indicated I didn't necessarily agree with the reply but I can't say i was treated with anything less that respect. Only my experience I know.

 

I can't comment on other forums either old or whatever as this is the first time I've been a member of one, being well warned by friends to stay clear of these forums due to the amount of bullying and harrasing that goes on (not suggesting you are guilty of that)if you don't agree with others opinion. Still seems to go on as far as I can observe and the people who run this site seem more interested who, other than Thistle fans might be offended.

 

As for the supporters organisation, as I say I've had nothing to do with it, not because I have anything against it but simply becasue it is neither visible or clear exactly what it does. It appears to just fundraise for the club, again I've no argument there but they don't appear to represent fans. I don't see that as being disrespectful as you suggest merely my own observations, so I'm not sure what you regard as disrespectful?

I'm equally unaware of what you refer to with regard of the sale of part of the ground to a group of directors and who misinformed who?

[Mediocre Pundit]

ok fair enough.

 

All I can say is that I have never had a 'copy and paste' reply from the club only because I've teneded to write and get a written reply. Old fashioned I know but I there you go. Like I indicated I didn't necessarily agree with the reply but I can't say i was treated with anything less that respect. Only my experience I know.

 

I can't comment on other forums either old or whatever as this is the first time I've been a member of one, being well warned by friends to stay clear of these forums due to the amount of bullying and harrasing that goes on (not suggesting you are guilty of that)if you don't agree with others opinion. Still seems to go on as far as I can observe and the people who run this site seem more interested who, other than Thistle fans might be offended.

 

As for the supporters organisation, as I say I've had nothing to do with it, not because I have anything against it but simply becasue it is neither visible or clear exactly what it does. It appears to just fundraise for the club, again I've no argument there but they don't appear to represent fans. I don't see that as being disrespectful as you suggest merely my own observations, so I'm not sure what you regard as disrespectful?

I'm equally unaware of what you refer to with regard of the sale of part of the ground to a group of directors and who misinformed who?

I know I've been a little pissy with you in the past, but that's a collection of really good posts you've written there...

[Steven H]

ok fair enough.

 

All I can say is that I have never had a 'copy and paste' reply from the club only because I've teneded to write and get a written reply. Old fashioned I know but I there you go. Like I indicated I didn't necessarily agree with the reply but I can't say i was treated with anything less that respect. Only my experience I know.

 

I can't comment on other forums either old or whatever as this is the first time I've been a member of one, being well warned by friends to stay clear of these forums due to the amount of bullying and harrasing that goes on (not suggesting you are guilty of that)if you don't agree with others opinion. Still seems to go on as far as I can observe and the people who run this site seem more interested who, other than Thistle fans might be offended.

 

As for the supporters organisation, as I say I've had nothing to do with it, not because I have anything against it but simply becasue it is neither visible or clear exactly what it does. It appears to just fundraise for the club, again I've no argument there but they don't appear to represent fans. I don't see that as being disrespectful as you suggest merely my own observations, so I'm not sure what you regard as disrespectful?

I'm equally unaware of what you refer to with regard of the sale of part of the ground to a group of directors and who misinformed who?

 

Well I think there is definately a lot of good points you raise and with regard to the questions you ask I will assume they are directed at me so I will start with them. When I speak about fans being disrespectful towards the JT I'm not refering to individual fans I mean as a body of fans. Its obviously an individual choice whether fans join up and become involved but its fair to say the JT has come under a fair amount of unfair criticism (as well as some which has been merited). Its also clear that the percentage of fans who are members of the JT is very low and that there are folk who are not members but have plenty to say about the problems(and probably plenty to give to the cause). Like I said earlier in the thread, its time to move on from standing on the sidelines moaning to actually looing to see what we as a group of fans can do about it.

 

With regard to Propco there was very little misinformation because there was none given by the Club and every attempt made by the Jags Trust Board to enter into discussion with the Club BoD, to address parts of this deal that fans where concerned about, where pretty much ignored/fobbed off. The BoD disrespected the JT and imo every single Thistle fan and they done nothing but increase the suspicions fans had/have. The guys on the JTB got some very unfair criticism for abstaining in a shareholders vote (too long a tale to go into in detail here), yet when an open meeting was arranged by the Trust in order for fans to discuss the issues and decide how we could vote I think only 1 person outside the JTB showed up.

 

As for the rest of your post, I agree the Club do show individual fans respect in a lot of cases but in others they don't. I also can sympathise with your thoughts regarding the Jags Trust and that's kinda what Im banging on about, the JT need more members and need to change imo in order to recruit them.

 

I hear what you're saying re the way past forums ended up, I don't think this one is quite as bad...yet, and I hope this discussion between us doesn't appear to be bullying or harrasing. However if there is disagreement (and Im not saying we are disagreeing) then there will be times when people will question/challenge others, that's fine by me as long as it doesn't become abusive or insulting.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Steven H

[potty trained]

another thread full of keyboard warriors who will do nothing.

 

why don't some of you grow a pair?

[Steven H]

another thread full of keyboard warriors who will do nothing.

 

why don't some of you grow a pair?

 

explaination required please!

[Vom Itorium]

Does the Jags Trust still exist? They seem anonymous on this forum..

[Guest Argus]

another thread full of keyboard warriors who will do nothing.

 

why don't some of you grow a pair?

 

Given the discussion on this thread maybe this is supposed to be an ironic comment

[Woodstock Jag]

Does the Jags Trust still exist? They seem anonymous on this forum..

You're not getting away from us that easily!

 

In the close season there's been a lot of work behind the scenes in an attempt to hit the ground running for this season. That said, it's going to take a bit of time to adjust to Kieron's departure from the Board with roles being changed accordingly. Some board members have been particularly busy with work commitments, but that only goes to emphasise how important it is for people who want the Supporters' Association to be active, visible and effective to get involved and spread the load. I'm a bit out the loop at the moment as I'm in (very) rural France, but hopefully we'll be able to release information about an 'open meeting' for fans to give the Trust some input and actually have an opinion to represent.

[Steven H]

You're not getting away from us that easily!

 

In the close season there's been a lot of work behind the scenes in an attempt to hit the ground running for this season. That said, it's going to take a bit of time to adjust to Kieron's departure from the Board with roles being changed accordingly. Some board members have been particularly busy with work commitments, but that only goes to emphasise how important it is for people who want the Supporters' Association to be active, visible and effective to get involved and spread the load. I'm a bit out the loop at the moment as I'm in (very) rural France, but hopefully we'll be able to release information about an 'open meeting' for fans to give the Trust some input and actually have an opinion to represent.

 

Can I just open this up again and ask how many of the folk on here would attend such a meeting? Might also be helpful to know of you are a JT member or not.