Oh Ah! Rangers In Trouble.

[yoda-jag]

sky sports knows the score

 

[Mr Bunny]

sky sports knows the score

But read down further ...

"should the club go into administration a second time"

 

Not quite got their story right have they?

[Tom Hosie]

The Bates period at Firhill is a fascinating one but a pretty undocumented period in the Club’s history.

As I recall he became involved when he promised Miller Reid he would purchase any unsold sales after a share issue. The share issue was spectacularly unsuccessful and he ended up with the majority shareholding almost by default.

Derek Johnstone was, again as I recall, not his first choice as manager. That was Ian McNeil who was, I think, assistant at Chelsea at the time. McNeil, not unsurprisingly, decided a part-time club which looked as if it were on a terminal decline playing to crowds that barely crept, and on occasions didn’t, over the 1,000 mark wasn’t a good career move.

Bates, aside from a couple of visits, a couple or articles in the programme and one delicious savaging of the self proclaimed ‘Voice of Football’, adopted a very much hands off role at Firhill.

I doubt he was terribly interested in events at Firhill but I don’t think he did the club any real harm.

The club was already rapidly heading downhill by the time of his involvement. How we never got relegated to the bottom league during the 1980s remains a mystery. We were truly, truly awful.

The problems began with Peter Cormack who in three full seasons relegated us and couldn’t get us back up.

Rooney came in and his policy of signing aging ex Morton players wasn’t a success and we flirted with relegation on two occasions. On the second Bertie Auld came in for the final 7 games and kept us up by the skin of our teeth.

The slide wasn’t reversed during Bates’ time at Firhill but I don’t think he accelerated it either. He just wasn’t especially interested. The club was at its’ lowest ebb ever in the second half of season 86/87. Crowds were regularly below 1,000 and Bates, the figurehead and absentee owner, was seen as the man to blame when in truth he inherited a complete mess.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Tom Hosie

[yoda-jag]

But read down further ...

"should the club go into administration a second time"

 

Not quite got their story right have they?

 

sky sports have their story right. state the club was formed in 2012 and any admin will be the first for the club.

 

the quote further down article is from a sds spokesman on behalf of 'rangers first' ..... who is hardly going to say its a new club when begging for money from the dead clubs supporters.

[angry gaz]

How we never got relegated to the bottom league during the 1980s remains a mystery. We were truly, truly awful.

 

I think the answer to that is Kenny Watson.

[Tom Hosie]

I think the answer to that is Kenny Watson.

 

Yes, I think you are probably right.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Being of gen x vintage (only) I have man love for three Thistle managers - Bertie, the great Lambini, and Archie.

 

I remember being thrilled when he stepped up to the mark for his second spell - he galvanised a sorry bunch and it was enough to keep us up.

 

Pretty sure he was all set to take charge for the following season - and had the supporters backing to do so. I can definitely vouch for the Livingston supporters branch anyway!

 

Yer man Bates completely undermined him by forcing Derek Johnstone in as a player. The impression from the outside looking in was that Bertie delivered a "him or me" stance and duly walked when Bates flexed his muscles.

 

Bertie Auld = good guy.

Ken Bates = w*nk.

[Tom Hosie]

Bertie Auld = good guy.

Ken Bates = w*nk.

 

Things are rarely, if ever, that straight forward.

 

Was what Auld did, jump ship to Hibs, any different from what Jackie McNamara did?

 

Then you need to debate the style of football that Auld deployed in the Premier League? "We want the Old Thistle not the Auld Thistle".

 

As a part-time team in an otherwise full-time league was his approach justified? Did he luck out that we had such a magnificent goalkeeper in Alan Rough?

 

His subsequent record at Hibs, Hamilton and Dumbarton would perhaps suggest that he did.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I think the answer to that is Kenny Watson.

 

Most definitely. Kenny was the one constant. Think he was more interested in the Jags than the majority of fans and I include myself with that apathetic bunch. Even as a regularly occasional supporter (if that made any sense) there were players you could loosely call footballers that just passed me by. "Who's the guy lining up beside Watson?", "Who's that Kenny just passed to?" were common questions and "I'm no too sure", "No idea" and "Could be ......" were common answers.

Don't really recall that much concern with finances etc as we were mostly of an opinion back then that football clubs didn't go to the wall. Not exactly sleeping giants but we were just going thru a bad spell. Fact was there was little passion on or off the field, on the terraces or in the boardroom. Kenny Watson was simply the exception to the rule.

I don't believe it was really till Lambie came along we rekindled that passion that had been absent since Bertie left.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Tom,

 

I was only wee - I can't recall the circumstances of the jump to Easter Road, but you're probably right to question the man in that regard.

 

However, I think the Ratbag is out on his own with his post-club shenanigans.

 

Back to Bertie though - I remember beating Rangers and Celtic often and going to school supporting one of the top teams in Scotland.

 

Yes, I remember the nil nils at Tannadice.

 

I'd do it all again.

 

Sorry - I'm not a purist. I just want Thistle to win. Ugly, beautiful, deserved, undeserved - I don't care!

 

As regards his post-Firhill record - I've never looked at it tbh. Maybe Bertie and Jags just had chemistry - sometimes it just works that way. That's the way it seemed to me.

 

Thanks to Bates we'll never know how he'd have shaped up in the 80s First Division. Certainly, the man was no stranger to leading Thistle to second tier glory... and he certainly COULDN'T have been any worse than DJ...

[jaggy]

Then you need to debate the style of football that Auld deployed in the Premier League? "We want the Old Thistle not the Auld Thistle".

 

As a part-time team in an otherwise full-time league was his approach justified? Did he luck out that we had such a magnificent goalkeeper in Alan Rough?

I still believe wee Bertie's 'style' of football gets a hard time from some. During his era we had some of the best strikers that I have seen at Firhill in Somner, McAdam and Melrose. We had great attacking midfielders in the likes of Gibson, Jardine, Watson, O'Hara, Houston and the quite magnificent Donald Park. Plus of course we had Rough, Anderson, Campbell etc. We were capable of beating all teams in the Premier League and often did, especially at home. I know he played for draws away from home, but considering he kept us up for 5 or 6 seasons as a part-time team I think he done a great job.

[Albert's Ghost]

Most definitely. Kenny was the one constant. Think he was more interested in the Jags than the majority of fans and I include myself with that apathetic bunch. Even as a regularly occasional supporter (if that made any sense) there were players you could loosely call footballers that just passed me by. "Who's the guy lining up beside Watson?", "Who's that Kenny just passed to?" were common questions and "I'm no too sure", "No idea" and "Could be ......" were common answers.

Don't really recall that much concern with finances etc as we were mostly of an opinion back then that football clubs didn't go to the wall. Not exactly sleeping giants but we were just going thru a bad spell. Fact was there was little passion on or off the field, on the terraces or in the boardroom. Kenny Watson was simply the exception to the rule.

I don't believe it was really till Lambie came along we rekindled that passion that had been absent since Bertie left.

Kenny Watson is my greatest Jaggy hero of all time.

[Lindau]

Yep, no complaints from me re Bertie, we had some great players at Firhill considering we were part time and Bertie did a great job keeping us up. The club never really recovered after he left, until Lambie came in and yes Kenny Watson was basically a one man team. The man is a Firhill legend and it's such a pity that he played in one of the worst ever Thistle era's. He deserved a helluva lot better than that.

[Winter of '63]

Good to see this thread divert from Rangers to Thistle! Maybe deserves a separate thread...there's also a decent thread on Pie & Bovril with comments on managers over the years.

 

Bertie was a breath of fresh air when he came in and generated a bit of publicity for the club, albeit much of it was self-publicity. He benefitted from the excellent players from Davie McParland's time - Alan Rough, John & Alan Hansen, Jackie Campbell, Andy Anderson, Brian Whittaker, Bobby Houston, Jim Melrose, Joe Craig - and got the very best out of cast-offs from other clubs - Donald Park, Doug Somner, Colin McAdam.

 

That was probably the strongest team and best group of players in my time watching Thistle...I'm sure there were two successive seasons when we were in the top three in the Premier League at New Year. The team's reputation for being defensive was a bit unfair - most sides then were set up to settle for a point away from home and we did have very good defenders and a brilliant keeper. However, the League Cup Winning side and the current team had/have more flair and style.

 

By the end of his time, I think most Thistle fans were not sorry to see Bertie go. Almost all our best players had moved on or retired and Bertie had failed completely to bring through much new talent preferring to sign journeymen professionals - we sold Somner, Melrose & McAdam for hugh fees and were left with Tony Higgins as our only striker...he was a midfielder, like Ryan Stevenson but even less mobile.

 

In many ways Auld set the club on course for the terrible decline of the 1980's. I didn't go to many games during that time but I do remember Kenny Watson still playing to the same standard and being head and shoulders above his team mates.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

How many posters who believe Bertie gets a raw deal on the stereotype front regularly attended away matches? That's not a loaded question as the away games I witnessed were local matches against the likes of Airdrie, Motherwell etc. I rarely saw signs of ultra negative football at those away games. I'd suggest the tag originated more from visits to Pittodrie, Embra and perhaps Tannadice.

[Lindau]

How many posters who believe Bertie gets a raw deal on the stereotype front regularly attended away matches? That's not a loaded question as the away games I witnessed were local matches against the likes of Airdrie, Motherwell etc. I rarely saw signs of ultra negative football at those away games. I'd suggest the tag originated more from visits to Pittodrie, Embra and perhaps Tannadice.

 

At that time I went to the matches with 3 people. Two of us loved the Jags style under Bertie and two others hated it and they were overjoyed when he went to Hibs. Only after witnessing Cormack, Rooney, Lamont and Johnstone did they realise what a fantastic job Auld did on a shoestring budget. I never at any time thought Bertie was over defensive. We had a cracking defence and we played to our strengths, but we had excellent and skillful midfielders and some great forward men as well.

 

[Garscube Road End]

Wee Bertie did play it defensively in the context of the era. But today it is termed as counter attacking football. Even Jim Mclean admitted that Thistle played a modern game of 4-4-2 and done it so well. Bertie was a very shrewd tactician who done a magnificent job with a part time team.He gets undeserved criticism. Also I recollect that when he left the club had 500k in the bank. Whateverr happened to that?

[lady-isobel-barnett]

It's worth reminding ourselves that back then it was only two points for a win. A drawn match today, no matter its merit, can see you lose a good bit of ground on your immediate rivals. As I said I can't recall just how defensive we were playing away at the more difficult venues but with less incentive to try and sneak a win there would be more justification in going for a draw.

[Mr Bunny]

In many ways Auld set the club on course for the terrible decline of the 1980's. I didn't go to many games during that time but I do remember Kenny Watson still playing to the same standard and being head and shoulders above his team mates.

 

Was that Auld or was it the board? Is it likely a manager would deliberately weaken his team - after all, poor results reflect on the manager. I remember we got big fees (by our standards) then for some players but little if any of it got reinvested in the team. I don't know whether that was greed or incompetence by the board or whether the game was changing and costing more to run a club but I don't think you can put it all down to the manager.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Mr Bunny

[Muscat Jag]

Off the top of my head I can remember 6-1 Hibs, 5-1 St Mirren, 4-3 Rangers (Twice) under Auld; I've never felt that there was any deliberate defensive tactic. I think the weakest element of Auld's team was the midfield. Often, particularly away from home, we were simply outplayed. A combination of the best defense in Scotland and some truly wonderful forwards saw us regularly get something from these games. It used to drive opposition fans mental; but **** 'em I say!

 

It would probably be worse nowadays, where people have become obsessed with meaningless statistics like possession.

[Tom Hosie]

Wee Bertie did play it defensively in the context of the era. But today it is termed as counter attacking football. Even Jim Mclean admitted that Thistle played a modern game of 4-4-2 and done it so well. Bertie was a very shrewd tactician who done a magnificent job with a part time team.He gets undeserved criticism. Also I recollect that when he left the club had 500k in the bank. Whateverr happened to that?

 

I was young at the time but I remember people moaning about the outlay spent on the segregation fence in The Shed and installation of electronic turnstyles.

[kni]

It seems that "Rangers" financial woes are not limited to Sevco.

 

The BBC reports "QPR could be refused future entry into the Championship if they fail to pay a potentially huge fine for breaching Financial Fair Play rules. Chairman Tony Fernandes has indicated he would appeal against a fine from the Football League, which would be around £54m if losses for Rangers' promotion season matched the £65.4m in 2012-13. But if the club don't pay, the league can block entry to its competitions."

 

If QPR refuse to pay the fine (rumoured to be up to £40 million) and are relegated, the Football League is saying that they could be refused entry to the Championship and forced down to the Conference. QPR could not be promoted into League Two until the fine is paid. BTW QPR's wage bill is reportedly bigger than AC Milan's!

[Richard Nixon]

Was that Auld or was it the board? Is it likely a manager would deliberately weaken his team - after all, poor results reflect on the manager.

 

Can it not be argued that Alex Ferguson is directly responsible for just how poor Manchester United now are? By not investing long-term in the squad he used up all the bog roll before buggering off out of the loo. You could blame it on the owners - they obviously have their faults - but it's not as if they haven't splashed insane amounts of cash when asked - this season and last.

[Winter of '63]

I was young at the time but I remember people moaning about the outlay spent on the segregation fence in The Shed and installation of electronic turnstyles.

I definitely remember fans commenting unfavourably at the time about the club selling Doug Somner and buying a fence - I recall someone mischievously suggesting that the transfer fee was to fund extensive renovations to the Esquire House but I'm sure that wasn't the case. However, even after these years, that still seems a strange transfer deal - selling your best striker to a club like St Mirren who weren't then more successful or better supported than Thistle. That was in the pre -Bosman days when the decision to sell was almost entirely down to the club. I think the following season Big Doug was the top scorer in the Premier League and St Mirren made a genuine title challenge.

[Mr Bunny]

Can it not be argued that Alex Ferguson is directly responsible for just how poor Manchester United now are? By not investing long-term in the squad he used up all the bog roll before buggering off out of the loo. You could blame it on the owners - they obviously have their faults - but it's not as if they haven't splashed insane amounts of cash when asked - this season and last.

 

And Auld didn't spend insane amounts of cash. I don't know what the situation was with the board. I was replying to a poster who blamed Auld for the decline in the team. A manager can only spend what he's allowed to spend. If the team declines long term it's down to the board either from poor managerial choices or not spending enough (caveat always being still spending within what can be afforded). Or a combination of both.

 

BTW Short term you can blame the manager, but if a team continues to go downhill after he leaves then surely the manager can't take all the blame.

 

One thing I do remember is that under the next manager (Cormack I think) we were looking a good bet to come straight back up but Mo Johnson, our main goal threat, was sold before the end of the season. This was before the days of Bosman and transfer windows. We could still have sold him at the end of the season - perhaps for a little less money but with a good chance of being in the top league when it happened.

 

As for the argument we needed the money, none of it went to the team which was quickly bereft of all it's decent players (except Kenny Watson) and we floundered in the lower league for years. I think I can argue that Auld had nothing to do with that - he wasn't even manager by then.

 

In previous relegations we'd managed to pick up good, young, eager players to come bouncing back up again (under Auld we came up with players like Bobby Houston, Joe Craig, John Craig, Ian Gibson - as long as holding on to players like Denis McQuade and Jackie Campbell). What had happened to the game (or the situation at Firhill) when we couldn't put a decent team together for years?