madcapmilkdrinker Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 I was in two minds as to whether to reply to this post due to your unwarranted rudeness and unswerving assumption that I had acted in a stupid way, or harboured incompatible emotions in respect of the election outcomes. Anyway, I'll put it like this: I am a socialist first and a Labour Party member a distant second. The party which I first joined 40 years ago is now a hideous caricature of its former self and I am on the verge of quitting it as a lost cause. The SNP, in my opinion, is far more representative of the working class in Scotland than the Labour Party has been for decades. Labour's atomisation last Thursday was just desserts for their appalling arrogance and self-serving assumption of their divine right to power. They have acted as political bullies for far too long and deserved their battering. Dead simple in my view. Whether that makes any sense to you is your business; I couldn't give a flying ****. If the planets align and I'm ever in Glasgow as the same time as you (unlikely but who knows) I'll buy you a shandy. #notadatethough 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 Hard to see what labour can do now, as a move to make them competitive in England, it would seem, would be a move further from the left wing roots that appeal in Scotland. Would question whether there is a place for a single party, or a need for a separation to allow the Scottish party greater independence on policy. Even with that, it would be a very difficult message to sell during a general election campaign, where the Scottish view will always be largely influenced by the message coming through the UK media. Something has to happen though, because I don't want to see the SNP with a free reign (rein?) in Scotland and no meaningful opposition. And I say that as someone who voted for them. To my mind there has to a credible Scottish Labour - and I don't mean one that's controlled from Millbank. But therein, I think, lies the problem... nae credibility. The SNP have nabbed it all and are now the party that now claims to represent ordinary working people. The people of Scotland, IMO, saw right through blair, Brown etc. I think this is the point Blackpool Jag was making; they f***ed it up and have done nothing to maintain ties with their traditional voters. Roughly 1m Scottish voters gave them a kicking (SNP vote in 2010 was 490k and jumped to 1.4m this election). I accept my figs are a bit rough and don't take into account changes in the size of the electorate. But I agree that there needs to opposition. If the SNP horse the 2016 Holyrood elections then we're effectively a one-party state. Maybe Cameron will sanction air-strikes to effect regime change and cite WMD? (WTF did I just say? We already do a nice line in missiles! One of my neighbours, definitely an SNP supporter because he plays traditional Scottish music (Fran and Anna records) when he's blootered, has been adding manure to his garden; this suggests something more sinister and would surely be of interest to weapons inspectors!). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 It isn't meant as a compliment! IMO it is foolish and or stupid to say that you are a member of an organisation and then state you are glad it got wiped out! Isn't that akin to saying ' I love Thistle and it hurts like hell when they lose, but I will be glad if they are relegated'? For me, this post explains neatly why Labour were able to take Scotland for granted for so many years - people supported the party like it was a football team. "My da voted Labour". I voted SNP last week, largely because I was impressed by my local candidate (now MP). But they are by no means guaranteed my vote for evermore. Labour badly needs a reboot - on both sides of the border. On this side, I think they should copy the Scottish Greens and formally split from the UK body, thus creating a truly Scottish Labour Party with its own policies and values. At this point, with UK Labour licking its wounds and looking to lurch to the right once again, I can see no other way of them stopping the haemorrhaging of their support to other parties, particularly the SNP. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 For me, this post explains neatly why Labour were able to take Scotland for granted for so many years - people supported the party like it was a football team. "My da voted Labour". I voted SNP last week, largely because I was impressed by my local candidate (now MP). But they are by no means guaranteed my vote for evermore. Labour badly needs a reboot - on both sides of the border. On this side, I think they should copy the Scottish Greens and formally split from the UK body, thus creating a truly Scottish Labour Party with its own policies and values. At this point, with UK Labour licking its wounds and looking to lurch to the right once again, I can see no other way of them stopping the haemorrhaging of their support to other parties, particularly the SNP. Spot on Will take years but the SNP, in fairness (and I'm not a fan), worked hard to achieve their success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) To my mind there has to a credible Scottish Labour - and I don't mean one that's controlled from Millbank. But therein, I think, lies the problem... nae credibility. The SNP have nabbed it all and are now the party that now claims to represent ordinary working people. The people of Scotland, IMO, saw right through blair, Brown etc. I think this is the point Blackpool Jag was making; they f***ed it up and have done nothing to maintain ties with their traditional voters. Roughly 1m Scottish voters gave them a kicking (SNP vote in 2010 was 490k and jumped to 1.4m this election). I accept my figs are a bit rough and don't take into account changes in the size of the electorate. But I agree that there needs to opposition. If the SNP horse the 2016 Holyrood elections then we're effectively a one-party state. Maybe Cameron will sanction air-strikes to effect regime change and cite WMD? (WTF did I just say? We already do a nice line in missiles! One of my neighbours, definitely an SNP supporter because he plays traditional Scottish music (Fran and Anna records) when he's blootered, has been adding manure to his garden; this suggests something more sinister and would surely be of interest to weapons inspectors!). Completely agree. It is important that in an effective democracy the ruling party has an effective opposition. At the moment, the Scottish Greens, who I have time for, are being talked about as potential candidates for that role. While I rate Patrick Harvie as a politician, is there sufficient depth of talent in that party to form a credible opposition to the SNP? I also wonder if any of the Labour MPs who lost their seats last week will stand for Holyrood next year. Murphy almost certainly will, as he has little choice now (that is, if he retains his job). I am not sure my blood pressure could handle Dougie Alexander's wee smug puss popping up on Reporting Scotland night after night though! Edited May 15, 2015 by Guy Incognito 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 The worry is that the SNP clean up at the Holyrood election and that the usual suspects get in on the list vote. I'm all for an effective opposition but would like to see some fresh talent with fresh ideas taking the fight to the SNP. But if the SNP do a good job; maybe no need to get my knickers in a twist. Your comments re the Greens are of interest, some mates of mine have moved in that direction of travel (some have been round the parties - Labour, SSP, Solidarity and some mob with initials I can't remember...) and are now talking up the Greens. My wife has been a fan for years but for purely eco' reasons; plus she thinks (or knows) that I just talk sh***! Poor women has had to put up with me going off to branch meetings, conferences etc and ranting about stuff she tells me isn't important. With hindsight; maybe she has a point; but New f***ing Labour!! Come on... I don't know why I care so much about Labour, they were happy to see the back of me during the Militant purges. Not that my politics are as right-on (or should that be loony-left) any more. It's not like I've started reading The Telelgraph; although you do get a nice free bottle of water if you buy it from WH Smith! (I don't but I see it when I'm picking up Cycling Weekly.) But how times have changed, it was like only yesterday that the SNP sided with the Tories, brought down James Callaghan, and gave us a Thatcher government. We perhaps forgive with time; or maybe the SNP has just moved to new centre-left ground. They have; but I still like to have a grumble. In fairness, I think wee Nicola might give Cameron an earful. However, will he listen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 For a candidate to have stated there was "secret oil fields" which has proven to be a lie, share a platform with Tommy Sheridan and talk about head butting opponents while decrying "career politicians" whilst only ever studying politics at uni under a manifesto which was very similar to Labour and still win against Douglas Alexander who was very experienced and competent shows the power of nationalism and how it blinds decision making. Nationalism in Scotland has consumed any far left opposition. It's followed the political history of many countries and those on the left have jumped on the bandwagon without thinking of the consequences and also abandoning their belief in class solidarity. Scotland is not a left leaning country. National attitude surveys show it is very similar to rUK. The tactics and policies of SNP show they understand this and are able to dominate Scottish politics through nationalism. They have been in power since 2007 and abandoned local tax reform as it would have increased taxes. Frozen council tax which damages local services. Changed Stamp Tax reforms so middle class pay less. Education standards have plummeted in schools, college places decimated and Con/Lib coalition spent more on NHS as % than SNP on Scot NHS. Free uni education benefits middle class who go while working class rates in Scotland are lower than in rUK. And yet they use the smokescreen of being for all Scotland. The masses lap it up, the left embarass themselves by abandoning political ideology and people lie to themselves on Scotland being more left. If they were to increase tax which the could especially with income tax powers I'd like to see the reaction to that. I see SNP MP's in the Glasgow Airport BA Lounge which means they are on a biz flexi ticket over £300+ instead of standard fare. How's that for "austerity"? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Willjag Posted June 10, 2015 Members Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 I see SNP MP's in the Glasgow Airport BA Lounge which means they are on a biz flexi ticket over £300+ instead of standard fare. How's that for "austerity"? Just to put you right on that one, if you register with BA's frequent flyer scheme, once you reach 'Silver' you're allowed into the BA lounge no matter what BA ticket you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Just to put you right on that one, if you register with BA's frequent flyer scheme, once you reach 'Silver' you're allowed into the BA lounge no matter what BA ticket you buy. 20 return trips to London would do that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 House of Commons only started back couple weeks ago. Silver = 50 flights. 25 returns or 600 tier points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) A wee jaunt to the 'states would improve the airmiles of the commonweal. Edited June 10, 2015 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Willjag Posted June 10, 2015 Members Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Also, you can invite someone in with you if they are also travelling BA. Maybe the MP you did see was claiming it as a business expense, maybe the MP was already a BA SIlver/Gold member? We don't really know. I'm just pointing out in the interest of balance that it might not necessarily be an expense claim? Unless of course you are that SNP MP LLD. .....or maybe even a former Labour MP that's just lost his seat to a Nationalist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 They should be taking the Megabus for £1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Willjag Posted June 10, 2015 Members Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 They should be taking the Megabus for £1 Yeah but think of the booze expense for a trip that length Norge!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 I'm sure the good people at Comedy Central would have fronted the flights. Maybe, good buddy Jon has his own private jet or something? Or, perhaps The World Bank'll sub us some dough for our VIP's? Half an hour with the U.S.'s second most senior diplomat must mean we am the big cheeses now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Has anyone ever seen Yvette Cooper (wife of rejected shadow chancellor Ed Balls, and Labour Party leadership contestant) and darts player, Kevin Painter, in the same room? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Also, you can invite someone in with you if they are also travelling BA. Maybe the MP you did see was claiming it as a business expense, maybe the MP was already a BA SIlver/Gold member? We don't really know. I'm just pointing out in the interest of balance that it might not necessarily be an expense claim? Unless of course you are that SNP MP LLD. .....or maybe even a former Labour MP that's just lost his seat to a Nationalist! If you know you'll be taking say 40 flights a year on the same route with BA (or Sas, KLM etc) you can pay a 1 off corporate fee which pays all your flights in that region and automatically gives you Gold membership, for SAS in Norrway it's £15k a year, which seems a lot but if your traveling on 2 or 4 flights a week the saving is massive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rid Skwerr Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 MB on Off the Ball now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 Yes, the experienced and competent Douglas Alexander who is pro-austerity and voted for the war in Iraq. What a tragedy it was that he lost his seat. He was extremely competent as head of Labours election campaign wasn't he? A job well done for Dougy that was! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 SNP are pro-austerity too. Austerity means balancing the books. The state still spends more than it takes in which is a massive timebomb for those under 40. SNP could raise taxes but they don't. The say one thing but do the other. Their economic policies have been proven to have massive holes especially the downright lies they told during referendum and whenever Stewart Hosie opens his mouth he embarasses himself with incompetence. Best political scam in decades. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDFA Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 Scotland is not a left leaning country. National attitude surveys show it is very similar to rUK. National attitude surveys? A few hundred (or a couple of thousand at best) respondents? We have a thoroughly comprehensive national attitude survey every five years called the General Election. How do the right-leaning Conservative Party do in those in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK? Relative to rUK, Scotland is most certainly a left-leaning country... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 National attitude surveys? A few hundred (or a couple of thousand at best) respondents? We have a thoroughly comprehensive national attitude survey every five years called the General Election. How do the right-leaning Conservative Party do in those in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK? Relative to rUK, Scotland is most certainly a left-leaning country... Only if you class snp as left which i doubt they are any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 People often pick a party with what they think it is instead of what it actually stands for. The Labour Party manifesto was more left wing and redistributive than SNP. The SNP had no redistributive policies in their manifesto. Whenever they were asked for an example by the "biased" media they could not name one. They can behind this as they are nationalists and say they are "for Scotland" where even socialists living in England are taken in by them. It's an impressive and powerful tool they use but every time Stewart Hosie opens his mouth his economic ineptitude actually depresses me he's a deputy leader of any party. Since being in power they have benefited middle class far more than those in lower incomes. It works for me as I've got a decent salary for now, free education (thanks for paying 4 years of uni which were mostly a doss those on lower incomes funded), council tax freeze (I could pay more but don't have to), prescription and dental charges (I could pay more but don't have to). Nicola Sturgeon is paid more than David Cameron. Her husband earns more than £100k. That's a household on £250k a year prob no mortgage and no kids. Utopia! If they offer tax raises for Holyrood then that will be welcome as it contributes to an honest debate but I doubt they will bring back "Penny for Scotland" campaign. I'm the most boring middle of the road of political persuasion you can get. I just want honest debate based on numbers. Populist rhetoric will never appeal to me. The SNP anti-austerity campaign is populism with no substance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 snp economics at its best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQvJac_NAKI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I don't agree with Mhairi's political theory. However, what I find more disappointing is that a clearly intelligent lady who cites Anthony Wedgewood Benn as one of her political heroes, quoting his - two kinds of politicians, weathercocks and signposts - maxim, at her first opportunity to stand for election uses the - I did not leave the labour party, the labour party left me - excuse, to jump on the SNP band wagon. It is not disrspectful to her to assert that, given her young age, if she was a member of the labour party she did not use her political accumen for very long in trying to influence its general policy or implement it. Given, and I'm willing to be corrected, she only joined the SNP about a year before she stood for election and her passionate support for independence, it is not hugely naive or prejudice to suspect that it is this single issue that drew her to that party rather than "the level of poverty and injustice prevalent in our society” she would rather us beleive. Indeed, her post election party-line of “I truly believe that the only way to bring the powers we were promised, and the social justice that Scotland so desperately needs, is to have a strong group of SNP MPs at Westminster to ensure our voices are heard.", is somewhat distant from her post rerendum, “The No side can feel how inevitable independence is. It is coming and it is coming quick, because you have 1.6 million people who want out of this union.”. The 55% may be as she says "gullible" or as her father asserted, the bigoted, the selfish, the frightened and the deluded, however I doubt many of them will be fooled into ignoring the SNP's raison d'etre. Salmond and Sturgeon are not Hitler and Mussolini .... However, their willingness to seek power and authority using the fanaticism of nationalism married to the pseudo philanthropy of socialism has a disastrous historical record. In fairness, populism does again seem to be the name of the game in politics these days. All parties could be accused of chameleon behaviour. A "tory" party announcing a mandatory "national living wage", ffs!!!! It all leaves me asking, social justice and "equality" or Scottish "independence", which is most important to you Mhairi? Weathercock or signpost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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