For Those There Today

[lennythistle]

Lenny, how did the mob know your dad had made the complaint?

Firstly, he turned and asked the guy to tone it down, as i said earlier it was noisy and so im prepared to accept it wasn't heard. as it continued he shouted to the steward , who was about ten feet away and watching the guy, "can you not do something, I mean the place is full of kids", followed by "just ask him to tone it down"

 

plenty sitting around us and within i'd say up to 2o feet knew my dad had been the one to shout at the steward.

 

no one had a go at my dad at that moment. It was only after it kicked off with the steward and the guy and his mates and they were being led away that it turned onto us. Immediately i realised the trouble we were in and at that point saw the distress my daughter was in. I then realised it was best to leave. it's as we got out our seats to go that the threats started and the abuse got worse. As i got to the bottom of the stairs, two , who had almost assaulted the steward and policeman, were making moves to come towards me my daughter and dad. Plenty more from both sides at us were shouting threats and abuse....and yes a good few called us scum. This after calling the police and stewards facists and scum.

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

I've read this thread in full. I've read it again. I've spoken to those in the vicinity of the incident and it all suggests the following occured:

 

A complaint was made about a fan using abusive language. A steward spoke to said fan who was contrite. His friend, however, was not. This resulted in an altercation between this fan and the stewards and police. One steward manhandled the fan in question which led to a surge of bodies in the direction of the fan who was now being escorted from the ground. The chants of "scum" were directed at the steward, not Lenny and his dad. A mob of fifty fans did not clamber over seats in a bid to physically harm Lenny, his father and his daughter. No threats were aimed at a 10-year-old girl although the girl was understandably affected by what was going on around her.

 

Lenny, you seem quite hysterical. Why don't you try and calm down. I don't believe any Thistle fan would deliberately harm a young girl I don't think you or any of your family would be in danger at Firhill. To suggest that is only inflaming the situation.

Edited October 23, 2010 by The Incredible Adam Spark

[lennythistle]

Sorry Leonard, I wasn't even at the game today, now if you'd excuse me, my daughter reads this forum, so please have some respect.

So how the hell are you qualified to state the whole matter has been blown out of proportion ? Just proven yet again what an utter moron you are !!!

[lennythistle]

I've read this thread in full. I've read it again. I've spoken to those in the vicinity of the incident and have came to the following conclusion.

 

A complaint was made about a fan using abusive language. A steward spoke to said fan who was contrite. His friend, however, was not. This resulted in an altercation between this fan and the stewards and police. One steward manhandled the fan in question which led to a surge of bodies in the direction of the fan who was now being escorted from the ground. The chants of "scum" were directed at the steward, not Lenny and his dad. A mob of fifty fans did not clamber over seats in a bid to physically harm Lenny, his father and his daughter. No threats were aimed at a 10-year-old girl although the girl was understandably affected by what was going on around her.

 

Lenny, you seem quite hysterical. Why don't you try and calm down. I don't believe any Thistle fan would deliberately harm a young girl I don't think you or any of your family would be in danger at Firhill. To suggest that is only inflaming the situation.

 

Can i suggest you read it again then.

 

Said i believe up to 50 were involved in the abuse towards us (my dad has already posted he thinks i may have that number wrong, i don't), never said 50 clambered over seats...at least two did....made it very clear the chants of scum and facists were aimed at police and steward as they took the guys out, then it turned onto my dad and me. We were only called scum, amoungst a great deal other threats and general abuse. Facists was kept purely for the police and steward.

 

I ain't a drama queen, haven't over reacted and haven't fabricated any part of the events....could those who were in the area vouch for everyone in that end of the ground and who said what to us.

 

I know the abuse and threats were aimed at my dad and i not my daughter....bloody hell said that often enough tonight....but she was there, she was terrified and that alone was enough evidence for those involved to back off !!! I'm not angry with what i was called, bloody hell been called worse ....i'm angry my daughter was subjected to it. Something a good few on here tonight fully understand...but sadly a good few don't.

[Pie Of The Month]

I ain't a drama queen

 

Funniest part of the thread so far.

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

If you were one of the 50 or so who swore, threatend and abused me, my dad and MY TEN YEAR OLD DAUGHTER...

 

...are you proud you were threatening a child....a TEN YEAR OLD GIRL !!!!

 

 

The abuse aimed at me, my dad and the tearful daughter was as we left...

 

...why continue to threaten us ????

 

 

I know the abuse and threats were aimed at my dad and i not my daughter....bloody hell said that often enough tonight....

 

she was there, she was terrified and that alone was enough evidence for those involved to back off !!!

 

Lenny, you accused people of threatening your daughter and said they continued to threaten you all, despite your distress being clear.

 

You're now saying the abuse wasn't aimed at her and the crowd backed off.

 

As I said, you sound quite hysterical. Maybe best for all involved if you sleep on it and reflect on the events come the morning.

[patrick bateman]

Wasn't at the game today but what has apparently happened to this guy doesn't surprise me. I've never witnessed such a bunch of infighting fans in my life like Thistle fans. The amount of incidents me or my mates have been involved in over the years in unbelievable at one stage almost weekly.When i used to relay these incidents to OF supporting mates they couldn't believe it. This seems an even new level though when there is kids involved and is truelly shamefull. As usual there is blinkered people on here who think we are the the best fans in the world and are constantly searching for excuses for todays behaviour. Just like to say to Lennythistle that we're not all a*******s although it doesn't feel like that sometimes.

Edited October 23, 2010 by patrick bateman

[johnnyjagsy71]

I was there. I saw it. I saw a number of "Jags fans" shouting at a guy in a Thistle tee shirt and his very scared daughter as they left and I felt ashamed. I heard the abuse from the guy at the time and I thought it was over the top. It reminded me of the time at Firhill when I asked someone to calm down when they were calling the ref a f*ckin c*nt" two rows behind a bunch of kids and was told they shouldn't be there if they are scared of swearing. I was angry today and I swore but the guy was way, way over the top. I was in a different bit of the stand and I heard him. Whether he should have been huckled is another matter but Lennythistle is absolutely right. The venom from some people directed to him made me ashamed in a way that after 40 years I thought I would never see.

 

 

 

Lenny, you accused people of threatening your daughter and said they continued to threaten you all, despite your distress being clear.

 

You're now saying the abuse wasn't aimed at her and the crowd backed off.

 

As I said, you sound quite hysterical. Maybe best for all involved if you sleep on it and reflect on the events come the morning.

Edited October 24, 2010 by johnnyjagsy71

[little_miss_jag]

 

Swearing in front of children is unacceptable

 

Agreed, however at a football match where your team is sitting 3-1 down I would say then yeah it is allowed at that point.

 

Lenny, I get your point but to be honest I was sitting a row behind the guy, he was angry prob had a drink in him and was beginning to calm down, I just think getting a steward involved was rather pointless and was only ever going to go one way! For all the time it took to say to a steward about the guys language you could have moved! I get that you should not have to but the swearing was always going to continue with a game like that so wouldn't it be easier just to shift seat and enjoy the game?

 

It was NOT a family section so the guy was perfectly entitled to air his opinions even if bad language was used! I really did not see the problem with that, the guy went on a bit but he was beginning to shut up.

 

At the end of the day let the thread die out, as horrible as it all is, what is the point in going on and on and over and over it again and again it is never going to get you anywhere.

 

I hope your little girl is alright and can enjoy going to games again soon

[lennythistle]

Lenny, you accused people of threatening your daughter and said they continued to threaten you all, despite your distress being clear.

 

You're now saying the abuse wasn't aimed at her and the crowd backed off.

 

As I said, you sound quite hysterical. Maybe best for all involved if you sleep on it and reflect on the events come the morning.

Please try to read my comments with more care....i'm saying the the state she was in was enough evidence for those involved to back off....im not saying they DID back off....far from it. Im saying they should have.

[smeatojag]

No i am not suggesting that it is wrong for people to swear but everything has to be in context. Reasonable people will always try not to swear in front of children, no matter the intensity of the situation they find themselves in. some posts have commented on the absense of a family section in stirling albion ground but we and the offenders were seated in a section which had the childrens gate and therefore obvioudly there were a considerable number of children were subjected to the swearing. again, i must point out that my objection to the language was not a result of an isolated incident. the swearing was non stop from before the start of the match to the point of my objection. other comments have been made that i and my family should have moved. Why ? anyone wishing to attend a match , believing that they have a right to express themselves in any langauge they wish to use should have the decency to move themselves from the vacinity of families with children. I have been made out to be the intolerant snobbish offender, when in reality all i did was ask someone to tone down his langauage in the presence of children, not only my grand daughter but others unknown to me. all he had to do was either move or moderate his language. the resultant problem with the steward and the police was entirely his own fault or those with him.

if you were so close why did you not ask the person or persons in question tone it down

[jaggybunnet]

if you were so close why did you not ask the person or persons in question tone it down

 

 

he did its in the part you quoted??

[Mr Scruff]

I was at the game, and saw this 'incident'.

 

Embarrased to be a Thistle fan. I've seen over-zealous stewarding before and that wasn't the problem this time. Some should take a look at themselves and their behaviour; reading several of the responses here suggests that's unlikely. And obviously the view of some is that to have a great atmosphere we need to be tolerant of ANY abuse or ANY behaviour. Well not my opinion (or experience).

 

Poor, poor stuff.

[Vom Itorium]

I'm sorry but anyone who believes that their children shouldn't be within earshot of sweary words when taken to a football match is either living in a bubble or should be going to the rugger.

 

Any shouting of 'scum' yesterday was aimed at that steward. The outrage of the majority of Thistle fans was aimed at that steward. There may have been words exchanged between the ones who felt the need to involve a steward in this and the friends of the guy who was arrested but c'montae****, it was a football match you were at where an official had made a really contentious decision, not the ballet.

[jaggybunnet]

I'm sorry but anyone who believes that their children shouldn't be within earshot of sweary words when taken to a football match is either living in a bubble or should be going to the rugger.

 

Any shouting of 'scum' yesterday was aimed at that steward. The outrage of the majority of Thistle fans was aimed at that steward. There may have been words exchanged between the ones who felt the need to involve a steward in this and the friends of the guy who was arrested but c'montae****, it was a football match you were at where an official had made a really contentious decision, not the ballet.

 

 

there has got to be a limit thought, shouting in the heat of the moment as has been posted before IMHO is fine, the guy yesterday continued long after that and then kept going a bit more just for the hell of it, he was also shouting abuse a fair bit before that incident.

 

where the line is i am not to sure but he def went over it and i think he would admit that, and seemed a bit embarressed when i spoke to him later.

 

i take you were close to the incident to be sure of the scum statement?

[Vom Itorium]

there has got to be a limit thought, shouting in the heat of the moment as has been posted before IMHO is fine, the guy yesterday continued long after that and then kept going a bit more just for the hell of it, he was also shouting abuse a fair bit before that incident.

 

where the line is i am not to sure but he def went over it and i think he would admit that, and seemed a bit embarressed when i spoke to him later.

 

i take you were close to the incident to be sure of the scum statement?

I can't be 100% about the scum statement but c'mon. Steward wades into crowd and starts acting like some kind of prison officer. Polis are also involved, where do you think that 'scum' is going to be aimed??

 

I'm not saying that a few of the guy who got arrested mates weren't peeved that he was being huckled due to being grassed up by a fellow fan. This may very well have been the case but surely people who go to a football match, whether with a child or not, must realise that there may be some swearing and some who may well take it too far? To go running off to stewards over this is wrong. Move seats if it's that bad, it wasn't as if the stand was full.

[Ancipital]

Bit surprised to come on here this morning and find me and my friends labelled yobs, a baying mob, vermin etc.

 

There were 6 of us sitting in a line yesterday, with 170 years experience of going to Jags games and (until yesterday) 0 ejections.

 

The first we knew of any problem was when the female steward came up and told -well, let's call him yob 1 for convenience's sake to tone down his language. As previously noted he took this on board but unfortunately yob 2 sitting next to him chirped back at the steward and she was well within her rights to get the cops.

 

Yob 2 was promptly asked to leave by the police and when they went to huckle him he said that he was leaving and would walk out without any "assistance". The cop in front turned his back as he was leading yob 2 out and the male steward took advantage of this to shove him 2 handed in the back, an event that was witnessed by many of the Thistle fans who had turned round and stood up to see what was going on. I then pointed out to the steward that I'd seen what he'd done and asked what his name was, to which he politely told me to "f**k off".

 

I noticed that he was wearing one of those armbands with his photo badge and name on it and tried to get a look at this. He pushed my arm away but I was able to see his name was Paterson. I then believe there was a wee altercation between yob 2 and Mr Paterson, which is where the assault allegations came from.

 

This is the important bit. None of the rest of the 6 of us were asked to leave, but we trooped down the stairs to the concourse to find out what was happening to our mate, and it turned out about 10 minutes later that he was being detained due to an allegation of assault. The other 5 of us returned to our seats just prior to half time, and ( I generally don't like using block caps but I feel this needs stressed ) IT WAS ONLY AT THIS POINT WE DISCOVERED THAT THE STEWARDS HAD BEEN CALLED BY A THISTLE FAN. Someone pointed out that "aye, it was an old guy sitting down a few rows there, he walked out".

 

So as much as I apologise to lennythistle's daughter for her day being spoiled:

 

* if any fan did have a "word" about the language, it was sotto voce

* we were walking down the stairs to find out if our mate was getting jailed or just thrown out.

* I, nor any of my friends have any idea what you and your family look like. I'm one of these folk who think people on internet forums look like their avatars, so I'd probably be looking for someone dressed as Batman

* so in no way were we trying to "get to you" or threatening you.

 

I can't speak for all the guys I wasn't with, but I would suggest that any surge towards the stairs was towards the stewards / cops as complaints about the incident went on well into the second half.

 

Anyway, 2 went home at half time and the other 3 stayed til full time- I'd arranged to meet my Stirlng supporting mate after the game so leaving at 4-1 wasn't an option. Received a phone call from yob 2 about 1720 to say he'd been released without charge and he joined us in the pub in Stirling. Got train back to Glasgow about 1840, met up with the other 2 in the Vale carrying yob 2 on our shoulders singing "Free Nelson Mandela".

 

Anyway, thought the thread deserved a wee bit of info from someone involved. I have no axe to grind with lenny, would be happy to meet for a pint in the Aitken Suite before a game... and call him a f***ing grassing b*****d to his face. (joking there).

 

Yours in Sport

 

Yob 5, BA (Hons)

Edited October 24, 2010 by Ancipital

[jaggybunnet]

I can't be 100% about the scum statement but c'mon. Steward wades into crowd and starts acting like some kind of prison officer. Polis are also involved, where do you think that 'scum' is going to be aimed??

 

I'm not saying that a few of the guy who got arrested mates weren't peeved that he was being huckled due to being grassed up by a fellow fan. This may very well have been the case but surely people who go to a football match, whether with a child or not, must realise that there may be some swearing and some who may well take it too far? To go running off to stewards over this is wrong. Move seats if it's that bad, it wasn't as if the stand was full.

 

 

no, one steward (woman) went and spoke to the guy who said ok no probs, it was once his mate started that the other steward (who was agressive) and the police man ( who didnt realy want involved by the looks he was giving)got involved.

 

they spoke to the guy, he kept going, why should they not try to get it stopped??

 

why should he? whos to say there was sapce for his whole family somewhere else.

 

people are making excuses for the behaviour of why i dont know

[jaggybunnet]

Bit surprised to come on here this morning and find me and my friends labelled yobs, a baying mob, vermin etc.

 

There were 6 of us sitting in a line yesterday, with 170 years experience of going to Jags games and (until yesterday) 0 ejections.

 

The first we knew of any problem was when the female steward came up and told -well, let's call him yob 1 for convenience's sake to tone down his language. As previously noted he took this on board but unfortunately yob 2 sitting next to him chirped back at the steward and she was well within her rights to get the cops.

 

Yob 2 was promptly asked to leave by the police and when they went to huckle him he said that he was leaving and would walk out without any "assistance". The cop in front turned his back as he was leading yob 2 out and the male steward took advantage of this to shove him 2 handed in the back, an event that was witnessed by many of the Thistle fans who had turned round and stood up to see what was going on. I then pointed out to the steward that I'd seen what he'd done and asked what his name was, to which he politely told me to "f**k off".

 

I noticed that he was wearing one of those armbands with his photo badge and name on it and tried to get a look at this. He pushed my arm away but I was able to see his name was Paterson. I then believe there was a wee altercation between yob 2 and Mr Paterson, which is where the assault allegations came from.

 

This is the important bit. None of the rest of the 6 of us were asked to leave, but we trooped down the stairs to the concourse to find out what was happening to our mate, and it turned out about 10 minutes later that he was being detained due to an allegation of assault. The other 5 of us returned to our seats just prior to half time, and ( I generally don't like using block caps but I feel this needs stressed ) IT WAS ONLY AT THIS POINT WE DISCOVERED THAT THE STEWARDS HAD BEEN CALLED BY A THISTLE FAN. Someone pointed out that "aye, it was an old guy sitting down a few rows there, he walked out".

 

So as much as I apologise to lennythistle's daughter for her day being spoiled:

 

* if any fan did have a "word" about the language, it was sotto voce

* we were walking down the stairs to find out if our mate was getting jailed or just thrown out.

* I, nor any of my friends have any idea what you and your family look like. I'm one of these folk who think people on internet forums look like their avatars, so I'd probably be looking for someone dressed as Batman

* so in no way were we trying to "get to you" or threatening you.

 

I can't speak for all the guys I wasn't with, but I would suggest that any surge towards the stairs was towards the stewards / cops as complaints about the incident went on well into the second half.

 

Anyway, 2 went home at half time and the other 3 stayed til full time- I'd arranged to meet my Stirlng supporting mate after the game so leaving at 4-1 wasn't an option. Received a phone call from yob 2 about 1720 to say he'd been released without charge and he joined us in the pub in Stirling. Got train back to Glasgow about 1840, met up with the other 2 in the Vale carrying yob 2 on our shoulders singing "Free Nelson Mandela".

 

Anyway, thought the thread deserved a wee bit of info from someone involved. I have no axe to grind with lenny, would be happy to meet for a pint in the Aitken Suite before a game... and call him a f***ing grassing b*****d to his face. (joking there).

 

Yours in Sport

 

Yob 5, BA (Hons)

 

 

 

 

when???

[Norgethistle]

I like most folk swear at the football(and at work and in the pub etc etc) especially when things start to go wrong, it happens. But noticing kids around me i will tone it down, yes the odd slip up happens i'm human. But come on horses for courses at times lads if theres a lot of young kids around tone it a tad or move, its easier for the grown ups to move than sometimes to move a kid who likes there seat cause they can see the players from there( i know i have a 4 year old and when they dig there heals in there's no moving them). Unfortunatly not all grounds have kids zones, which allow us to swear and the kids to be comfertable without hearing it. I don't take my daughter to firhill yet (as her english isnt great and too many strange accents would confuse her, plus her granda wouldnt get a minutes peace from her) but have to the viking games and yes i let her know that she may hear some bad words and they have not to be repeated. Kids need to be warned that they may hear bad language but adults also need to remember who's around them.

[Ancipital]

when???

 

when???

 

2003.

 

Firstly, I'm posting on my phone so replies will take ages but I wanted to get a reasoned point of view over before the thread went even more haywire.

 

The issues were

 

*at what point does swearing at football become unacceptable? Not getting involved in this one, everyone has their own tolerance limits which are affected severely by having kids with you.

* did they guy who got thrown out deserve to get thrown out? I've already said yes, chirped back too much at the steward

* did we threaten / abuse lennythistle and co- NO. this was the point I wanted to get across.

[Steven H]

I've read this thread in full. I've read it again. I've spoken to those in the vicinity of the incident and it all suggests the following occured:

 

A complaint was made about a fan using abusive language. A steward spoke to said fan who was contrite. His friend, however, was not. This resulted in an altercation between this fan and the stewards and police. One steward manhandled the fan in question which led to a surge of bodies in the direction of the fan who was now being escorted from the ground. The chants of "scum" were directed at the steward, not Lenny and his dad. A mob of fifty fans did not clamber over seats in a bid to physically harm Lenny, his father and his daughter. No threats were aimed at a 10-year-old girl although the girl was understandably affected by what was going on around her.

 

Lenny, you seem quite hysterical. Why don't you try and calm down. I don't believe any Thistle fan would deliberately harm a young girl I don't think you or any of your family would be in danger at Firhill. To suggest that is only inflaming the situation.

 

Is this an attempt at objectivity? Here's how I see it based on the same kinda sources you have drawn upon:

 

1 - An older gentleman took offence to the language by a group of Thistle fans and asked them to tone it down a bit, said fans never heard him (or ignored him) and he went to the steward. He was well within his right to do that if he felt it necessary, who are we to judge the value base of another and when he should feel a line has been crossed, that's his choice/outlook on life?

2 - A female steward done her job, the guy who caused offence took her advice and his mate took umbridge. Why his mate never just left is something he'd need to ask himself. A male steward arrived and showed an aggressive attitude towards staff (playing the big I am in front of the female steward perhaps?) and things escalated to the point a fan was being ejected. Behaviour of other people cannot be attributed to someone else, stupid reactions to stewards and heavy handed behaviour by a steward can only be attributed to said people.

3 - Thistle fans intimidated a family (3 generations of Jags fan btw) and it doesnt matter if it was 50 or 5. Given that a few posters have said they saw this incident I'm inclined to believe something of this sort took place, and given that NO ONE has came out and stated as absolute fact that it didnt happen (except folk who weren't there and simply think lennythistle is lying) then that for me suggests it did. End result? Wee girl terrified, Dad worried for safety of his daughter and a grandad who will never return to watch Thistle again. Sad!

4 - Some fans on this thread need to take a good look at themselves, for me the over riding issues is the fact a young girl was left terrified by THISTLE FANS and their intimidating behaviour, for me this shouldn't be over-looked. It doesn't matter who went to a steward, it doesn't matter why he went to the steward...what happened next can only be layed at the feet of those involved AFTER the steward(s) intervened.

 

This is all fact, backed up by other Thistle fans who saw it happen and some who say they saw/heard something (to greater or lesser degree) AFTER the fan was removed from the ground. There are a lot of areas of conjecture, like the singing of Hello Hello how do you do, like the guys decision to go to the steward with his complaint. If it was me and I took offence I'd ask the person(s) in question to tone it down (which apparently happened), if it was me I'd be singing the Hello Hello song because imo it is the least sectarian song in the world. But it wasn't me, it doesn't matter what I would have done, what you would have done and what any of us think the guys dad should have done. He took the action HE thought was most appropriate and fans should be big enough to handle a wee 'word in the ear' from a steward without going in a huff about it.

 

A sad sorry affair and I feel I've now said more than enough about it, I hope this thread can be allowed to die at somepoint today and when it's dead I hope Admin remove it completely, brings nothing but shame on the lot of us!

Edited October 24, 2010 by Steven H

[Jaggernaut]

That's to be respected, but surely you have to admit it's unreasonable to expect everyone within a large gathering of people to adhere to it. Fair enough, I concede that extreme forms of swearing should be shunned in public, but you appear to be stating that swearing, even in an intense situation, is unacceptable full stop.

 

Now, if swearing is the refuge of the ignorant, is that a question of upbringing and/or educational standards? You appear to have a fine vocabulary and an admirable grasp of the English language, but are you suggesting those who don't shouldn't be allowed to express their feelings in a way that comes easy to them?

He could work a bit on spelling.....

[jaggybunnet]

2003.

 

Firstly, I'm posting on my phone so replies will take ages but I wanted to get a reasoned point of view over before the thread went even more haywire.

 

The issues were

 

*at what point does swearing at football become unacceptable? Not getting involved in this one, everyone has their own tolerance limits which are affected severely by having kids with you.

* did they guy who got thrown out deserve to get thrown out? I've already said yes, chirped back too much at the steward

* did we threaten / abuse lennythistle and co- NO. this was the point I wanted to get across.

 

I certainly didn't see any of your group do it, but others in the area could of and I did hear raised voices when you had left to see your mate.

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

Steven, it's Lenny's histrionics I've taken issue with. That and the accusations relating to the abuse of a ten-year-old and the physical intimadation of Lenny and his family by friends of the ejected party - one of whom it transpires I know very well.

 

As I said earlier, questioning the veracity of Tom's claims post-Central Park appeared to be fair game, but doing so here is branded "shameful", presumably due to the involvement of a child.

 

It appears we can add a small band of hypocrites to the yobs and elitists that populate our support.