Beattie's Programme Notes

[MerryHell]

Why didn't they organize a couple of stupid Jags-related Christmas hampers as prizes, for God's sake? Couple of bottles of wine, some tinned ham, mince pies etc. etc; throw in a ball or a kid's jersey or two, and raffle them at a quid. Cost to the club? Peanuts. Income generated? Probably a grand or two.

 

I'm not having a go directly at you Jaggernaut, but I think that there is too much of this 'Why didn't they ...' stuff on this forum. There are channels open where these suggestions could be made to the club. Suggest things and they might happen - look at the 'Informal meeting ...' post to see that the club ARE open to suggestions, it's just that you might have to take a part in the organising of them. Is that what stops us?

 

Anyway, the club ensured that a game was on yesterday and only 1500 turned up. I agree with the posts that describe this as shocking.

 

I've asked this on another topic, but is the £100,000 just what we need between now and the end of the season, assuming nothing, or is this in addition to what the club would realistically expect to make from matchday/centenery fund/hospitality etc? We have 11 home games left - what profit do we average per home game?

[Woodstock Jag]

I've asked this on another topic, but is the £100,000 just what we need between now and the end of the season, assuming nothing, or is this in addition to what the club would realistically expect to make from matchday/centenery fund/hospitality etc? We have 11 home games left - what profit do we average per home game?

 

My interpretation is that it is a shortfall that needs plugged.

[stolenscone]

I've asked this on another topic, but is the £100,000 just what we need between now and the end of the season, assuming nothing, or is this in addition to what the club would realistically expect to make from matchday/centenery fund/hospitality etc?

 

Like Woodie, I took this to mean a shortfall. The Club Board will do what they can to chip at this, but at the end of the day, it's down to the supporters. It's our club, after all.

[Jaggernaut]

I'm not having a go directly at you Jaggernaut, but I think that there is too much of this 'Why didn't they ...' stuff on this forum. There are channels open where these suggestions could be made to the club. Suggest things and they might happen - look at the 'Informal meeting ...' post to see that the club ARE open to suggestions, it's just that you might have to take a part in the organising of them. Is that what stops us?

 

Anyway, the club ensured that a game was on yesterday and only 1500 turned up. I agree with the posts that describe this as shocking.

 

I've asked this on another topic, but is the £100,000 just what we need between now and the end of the season, assuming nothing, or is this in addition to what the club would realistically expect to make from matchday/centenery fund/hospitality etc? We have 11 home games left - what profit do we average per home game?

Point taken, and you're right. I guess more folk probably need to get actively involved, rather than merely sniping from the sidelines. I live too far away from Glasgow and am really too busy to get involved in any organizing of anything, but my point is mainly that quite a lot of people are ready to spend money that will go to help the Jags IF there is something attractive and different on offer. There are only so many 50/50 tickets, programmes, scarves etc you want to buy every other week. Change it around even slightly, freshen it up and the money is the same (well, it it would be extra), but more people are likely to be willing to part with their readies.

[Jaggernaut]

Like Woodie, I took this to mean a shortfall. The Club Board will do what they can to chip at this, but at the end of the day, it's down to the supporters. It's our club, after all.

To a certain extent. It's actually the club of the people who own the shares, especially those who have been dismantling and selling off the stadium to developers.

[Fellow Traveller]

As a general rule, when they're busy running up the debts it's their club, when they've got to pay them off or go bust it's our club.

[McKennan]

Like Woodie, I took this to mean a shortfall. The Club Board will do what they can to chip at this, but at the end of the day, it's down to the supporters. It's our club, after all.

 

 

David, I understand you're speaking figuratively but please don't advance this fiction. Thistle only becomes 'our club' when someone threatens to pull the chain as it sinks to the bottom of the toilet. For 1997/98 read 2010/11.

[McKennan]

As a general rule, when they're busy running up the debts it's their club, when they've got to pay them off or go bust it's our club.

 

Dear god, Greig Forbes and I are in agreement on something. National holiday I think.

[Trotter]

To a certain extent. It's actually the club of the people who own the shares, especially those who have been dismantling and selling off the stadium to developers.

 

 

As a general rule, when they're busy running up the debts it's their club, when they've got to pay them off or go bust it's our club.

 

 

Both spot on imo. Here's a suggestion. Why don't those club directors who've used hospitality over the years to impress and increase their client base, put a percentage of that back in the club. 1998 onwards should be quite a bit of cash.

[stolenscone]

David, I understand you're speaking figuratively but please don't advance this fiction. Thistle only becomes 'our club' when someone threatens to pull the chain as it sinks to the bottom of the toilet. For 1997/98 read 2010/11.

 

My point is only this:

 

If you (collectively) want to have a football club to support in the future, then you (collectively) need to give that support, financially. If you don't care, then don't. The Club needs to get to the end of this season and then begin to only spend what it brings in -- end of story.

 

Has the Club been run poorly in the past? Yes. Is there some evidence that this is being addressed? I think on balance, "yes". Probably not enough evidence, but if I sit around and wait to be convinced, then the Club might fold, so I've chosen not to do that. I hope others take a similar view, but that's up to each individual.

 

For me, there does need to be some real evidence of fan involvement in the decision making process -- not an occassional promise, but a systemic change that enshrines real fan involvement in the constitution of the football club (to avoid leaps of faith and the prospect of failed promises in the future). If we're in this together, then it's a two way street. Will that happen? Yes, I believe it will, although I appreciate that the Club has yet to make any announcement on this. My earlier response about not sitting around to wait refers.

[Fellow Traveller]

Dear god, Greig Forbes and I are in agreement on something. National holiday I think.

 

This will do wonders for your social life.

[GrantB]

Well it's made it into today's Currant Bun according to the BBC Scotland gossip page

[Fellow Traveller]

If you (collectively) want to have a football club to support in the future, then you (collectively) need to give that support, financially. If you don't care, then don't. The Club needs to get to the end of this season and then begin to only spend what it brings in -- end of story.

 

I think responding to people who have grave concerns about the people in charge of the club with "If you don't care, then don't" is a bit regrettable, David, but you're entitled to your view.

 

We all chipped in before and we'll probably all chip in again. But I'd feel a lot less conflicted about this bail out if the Financial Supremo who presided over our descent into debt and impending disaster had not merely moved over to be Company Secretary and then brought in more people from his own accountancy firm to run the club office and handle the finances. Because there is nothing to suggest that the individual concerned - that would be Tom Hughes of Gerber, Landa and Gee, Tom Hughes of Propco (hmm, conflict of interest anyone?), Impecunious of days gone by - has taken any responsibility for his role in this and is prepared to do the honourable thing and genuinely walk away from the club. As opposed to becoming the shadowy Mandelson figure whispering in David Beattie's ear while we all have to sort out the mess that happened on his watch. A fresh start cannot mean the same failed directors sitting in different seats around the table or, guaranteed, we will be here a third time and that really will be curtains.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Double Ugly

[Fellow Traveller]

Time to go.

[stolenscone]

I think responding to people who have grave concerns about the people in charge of the club with "If you don't care, then don't" is a bit regrettable, David, but you're entitled to your view.

 

None of this is intended to degerate into an "I'm a better fan than you" discussion, Greig. I'm just not interested in that sort of thing.

 

Bottom line is that PTFC is a business that provides entertainment to its customers at 19 homes league games and a couple of cup ties. If the business cannot be run at break even because it's customer base is too small to support its essential overheads, then there is no viable business and it should close its doors.

 

The issue is clouded by the emotional ties that people have to be business. If people care about whether the business can continue, then talking from the sidelines or waiting until certain things happen isn't really an option any more. If folk find that they don't actually care all that much whether the business folds, then that's their choice, and it's not one that I would criticise. But there's really nothing to be gained by these folk talking down the business from the sidelines.

 

As for the rest of your post (not quoted above), I find it difficult to disagree.

[Fellow Traveller]

And while we're scrambling around for £100,000 to keep the club alive until the end of the season, let's not forget the parting words of the other half of the comedy act:

 

The Hughes/Cowan legacy.

[Third Lanark]

I'm kinda hoping that Dundee have to sell Harkins during the January transfer window. We were entitled to 25% of the sell on fee, though I have my worries that they may try and wriggle out of this by using the administration excuse. Who knows how much they would get for Harkins the fact they are skint may mean they cant negotiate a good deal.

 

If they sold him for £40k (though I hope its quite a bit more than that) then we would I presume be entitled to £10k, I presume quite a bit of this could go to the £100k figure Still leaves us another £90k to get though.

[Norgethistle]

Bottom line is that PTFC is a business that provides entertainment to its customers at 19 homes league games and a couple of cup ties. If the business cannot be run at break even because it's customer base is too small to support its essential overheads, then there is no viable business and it should close its doors.

 

The issue is clouded by the emotional ties that people have to be business. If people care about whether the business can continue, then talking from the sidelines or waiting until certain things happen isn't really an option any more. If folk find that they don't actually care all that much whether the business folds, then that's their choice, and it's not one that I would criticise. But there's really nothing to be gained by these folk talking down the business from the sidelines.

 

As for the rest of your post (not quoted above), I find it difficult to disagree.

 

For years we have been asking about utilising the ground more outwith matchdays to bring more cash in, has it ever happened with the exception of a few jags trust events?

 

The board under our financial supremo has spent money we didnt have investing in things we didint need or ides that werent thought out completely.

 

How many ideas have come from here as to wee ways to make some revenue and never happened, not because they are impossible but because they couldn't be bothered, easy fix asset strip make a wee nest egg for yourselfs and keep the head above water for another year or 2. Whilst not livivng with in our means.

 

The back to back championships we had look at the crowds we had all money in the bank, we had no youth policy as such to pay, and the players were not on great money, add to that the semi final money, the 2 big transfers, the rangers games etc etc etc and alot more money came into this club in the last 10 years than most other clubs, yes we built a stand, but selling the land off for the student accomodation paid for that and a bit more (or so we were told at the time)

 

Surely to hell when the books have been getting revieved monthly, quartely annually overthe years by a man who runs a financial services company alarm bells should have started to ring years ago and said right lets cut back on this, utilize this more, not move this or pay to knock this bit down with no planning permission. or was it lets not worry something will turn up, someone will seee our advert.

 

Yet again its falling down to the normal jags fan to dig deep which we probably will, whilstn the guys that got us into it are still at the helm but under another job title.

 

The free shares should be sold if possible with all money going to service the debt, if you want your free shares you can pay for them as you got us into this mess and that may help us out of it

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

I'm kinda hoping that Dundee have to sell Harkins during the January transfer window. We were entitled to 25% of the sell on fee, though I have my worries that they may try and wriggle out of this by using the administration excuse. Who knows how much they would get for Harkins the fact they are skint may mean they cant negotiate a good deal.

 

If they sold him for £40k (though I hope its quite a bit more than that) then we would I presume be entitled to £10k, I presume quite a bit of this could go to the £100k figure Still leaves us another £90k to get though.

 

I'm assuming we'll be classed as one of Dundee's creditors. We're going to get close to nothing for Harkins, if anything.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I'm assuming we'll be classed as one of Dundee's creditors. We're going to get close to nothing for Harkins, if anything.

In my naivety I would assume we'd get 100% of our cut. Its wouldn't be Dundee's money in the first place. The buying club should be sending a cheque, cash iou to Dundee for 75% of the arranged fee and 25% straight to us. Of course I'm maybe being naive but the Harkins money due us would be a football debt and Dundee couldn't sell or buy while that debt remained. Citing the Livi embargo re O'Hooligan or whatever he was called.

[GrantB]

I'm kinda hoping that Dundee have to sell Harkins during the January transfer window. We were entitled to 25% of the sell on fee, though I have my worries that they may try and wriggle out of this by using the administration excuse. Who knows how much they would get for Harkins the fact they are skint may mean they cant negotiate a good deal.

 

If they sold him for £40k (though I hope its quite a bit more than that) then we would I presume be entitled to £10k, I presume quite a bit of this could go to the £100k figure Still leaves us another £90k to get though.

 

Dunno if I'm right but I think we have to hope the cheats maage to sell Harkins for more than the £150K than we sold him for before the 25% kicks in. If so, we have hee-haw chance of ever seeing a peeny as he's never shown enough form to justify any transfer fee since he's went to the cheats.

[McKennan]

For me, there does need to be some real evidence of fan involvement in the decision making process -- not an occassional promise, but a systemic change that enshrines real fan involvement in the constitution of the football club (to avoid leaps of faith and the prospect of failed promises in the future). If we're in this together, then it's a two way street. Will that happen? Yes, I believe it will, although I appreciate that the Club has yet to make any announcement on this. My earlier response about not sitting around to wait refers.

 

 

Then god bless the optimists because I'm afraid that the fans will bail the club out and the suits will stroll in and we're back to square one. The fitting and convulsions will stop and we'll get back on this merry-go-round in a couple of years.

 

I'm reminded of two adages and they both tell us the same story - the one about those who don't learn from the past and are condemned to repeat it and the other about doing the same damn thing 100 times and expecting a different outcome.

[McKennan]

This will do wonders for your social life.

 

 

I've had my innoculations for distemper. I'm sure I'll be fine.

[Alan Murray]

The reaction to one press statement is way over the top. Time to forget about Hughes/Cowan and get on with doing stuff to help the club.

[Fellow Traveller]

I'll forget about them when they've really gone instead of just pretending.

 

And that doesn't preclude doing stuff to help the club.