General Election 2010

[Jaggernaut]

Grant B

 

 

This is extremely patronising. Please credit the Scottish people with some intelligence - even if they don't agree with you!

 

I know the votes in Holyrood will be higher for the SNP. People aren't daft. But in the election that counts the most (given who holds the purse strings and that turnout is higher in Scotland for a Westminster election than a Holyrood election) people chose 4:1 to vote for parties who did not want independence even though they knew that the Tories were likely to win!

 

If there is to be PR for the UK elections, the opposite could happen: if we know that we can never get a Conservative Party ruling us alone then one of the biggest fears would evaporate. If the English vote is delivered by PR we will not see the same massive Tory bloc in England.

And in those few words I think you've encapsulated why Scotland is moving towards becoming an independent nation again. Basically you're saying that any vote for Scottish independence (only available through the SNP) doesn't count. So, Scotland doesn't count? Well, sorry to burst any unionist bubble, but the SNP vote is growing with every year. People (north too, but maybe down south, especially) sneered at the Scottish people's desire for a fairer society with spending priorities for the people (as opposed to tax-raising ID card schemes and obscene nuclear weapons programmes, for example).

 

Just watch SNP power grow from now on. And bring it on!

 

Anyway, why do people in England even give a monkey's about what Scotland does? If they're subsidy junkies as the unionist want everybody to believe, then surely they should be got rid of?

[jaggybunnet]

And in those few words I think you've encapsulated why Scotland is moving towards becoming an independent nation again. Basically you're saying that any vote for Scottish independence (only available through the SNP) doesn't count. So, Scotland doesn't count? Well, sorry to burst any unionist bubble, but the SNP vote is growing with every year. People (north too, but maybe down south, especially) sneered at the Scottish people's desire for a fairer society with spending priorities for the people (as opposed to tax-raising ID card schemes and obscene nuclear weapons programmes, for example).

 

Just watch SNP power grow from now on. And bring it on!

 

Anyway, why do people in England even give a monkey's about what Scotland does? If they're subsidy junkies as the unionist want everybody to believe, then surely they should be got rid of?

 

Said it before and will say it again SNP are an irrelevance they will probably be voted out at the next Scottish elections which are a waste of time, effort and money (as is the euro elections but multiplied ).

 

And just to show how irrelevant they are, they are (allegedly) in power and still cant get a referendum on independence which is the only reason for them to exist.

 

Most Sensible people know independence is a bad idea and for that reason it will never happen.

 

Once again for the hard of hearing SNP are an irrelevance, so get over it and do the right thing and vote for Dave Cameron.

 

Grant i am sorry for bursting your bubble and will buy you a beer to make up for it.

[GrantB]

Grant B

 

Everyone knew the Tories were likely to win this election. Do you honestly think that people woke up on Friday morning shocked to realise that the Tories came first? And, even more shocked that Labour hadn't won?

 

This is extremely patronising. Please credit the Scottish people with some intelligence - even if they don't agree with you!

 

I know the votes in Holyrood will be higher for the SNP. People aren't daft. But in the election that counts the most (given who holds the purse strings and that turnout is higher in Scotland for a Westminster election than a Holyrood election) people chose 4:1 to vote for parties who did not want independence even though they knew that the Tories were likely to win!

 

If there is to be PR for the UK elections, the opposite could happen: if we know that we can never get a Conservative Party ruling us alone then one of the biggest fears would evaporate. If the English vote is delivered by PR we will not see the same massive Tory bloc in England.

 

As a Scot, the election that counts the most for me is the election to my country's parliament. That aint the Westminster one

 

The SNP vote and momentum is only going to build and build especially as the Tory policys are felt across Scotland.

 

Your Labour party are a thing of the past, a party with no policies that rely on scaring people into voting for them.

 

Said it before and will say it again SNP are an irrelevance they will probably be voted out at the next Scottish elections which are a waste of time, effort and money (as is the euro elections but multiplied ).

 

And just to show how irrelevant they are, they are (allegedly) in power and still cant get a referendum on independence which is the only reason for them to exist.

 

Most Sensible people know independence is a bad idea and for that reason it will never happen.

 

Once again for the hard of hearing SNP are an irrelevance, so get over it and do the right thing and vote for Dave Cameron.

 

Grant i am sorry for bursting your bubble and will buy you a beer to make up for it.

 

I look forward to a pint and a political discussion. It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're still wrong though

[Sandy Gall]

Gordon Brown for Scottish Labour leader?

[Phoenix]

Seems to me one of the reasons that the SNP are not as popular as they could be is the insistence of their supporters telling everyone who didn't vote SNP that they are either too stupid to understand the finer points of their policy or that they just vote the way their parents/grandparents voted.

 

If the SNP are so sure that they would win a referendum on Independance then why dont they fund it themselves and ask 1 simple question. Do you want an independant Scotland?

My theory is that they already know what the result would be and that would destroy them as a party.

 

As for them gaining momentum their showing in the recent General election was only slightly better than 2005 and worse than 2001/1997 and 1992.

[GrantB]

Seems to me one of the reasons that the SNP are not as popular as they could be is the insistence of their supporters telling everyone who didn't vote SNP that they are either too stupid to understand the finer points of their policy or that they just vote the way their parents/grandparents voted.

 

If the SNP are so sure that they would win a referendum on Independance then why dont they fund it themselves and ask 1 simple question. Do you want an independant Scotland?

My theory is that they already know what the result would be and that would destroy them as a party.

 

As for them gaining momentum their showing in the recent General election was only slightly better than 2005 and worse than 2001/1997 and 1992.

 

The question every Scot should ask themselves is do you think we should be able to run our own affairs as a confident, independent equal partner in the European Union or be goverened by Wetminster and be reliant on handouts?

[Jaggernaut]

Said it before and will say it again SNP are an irrelevance they will probably be voted out at the next Scottish elections which are a waste of time, effort and money (as is the euro elections but multiplied ).

 

And just to show how irrelevant they are, they are (allegedly) in power and still cant get a referendum on independence which is the only reason for them to exist.

 

Most Sensible people know independence is a bad idea and for that reason it will never happen.

 

Once again for the hard of hearing SNP are an irrelevance, so get over it and do the right thing and vote for Dave Cameron.

 

Grant i am sorry for bursting your bubble and will buy you a beer to make up for it.

That's got me grinning this morning!

[alx]

Guess what will happen now? -a- Creepy dishonest Labour activists & daft voters will not accept that Brown blew billions of pounds due to financial incompetence (you're supposed to save some money when in surplus) -b- blame the tories for all the cuts that are coming. I'll bet they will accept zero responsibility for what's coming. Typical labour, inherit a healthy economy, ruin it, and leave the wreckage for someone else to clean up.

[Chris near Oxford]

You can delude yourself as much as you like.

 

I realise that the Holyrood election is more important for the decisions that matter. But like you, I am in a minority.

 

If the Scots agreed with you turnout would be higher in a Scottish Election. Despite being a PR election so that "every vote counts", people in Scotland still vote more in a General Election by quite a large proportion.

 

This doesn't make me happy. It's just a fact that we can't hide from.

 

There is a simple job for the SNP to do: make the case for independence and make it stack up. Forget about bouncing a referendum on the back of the previously expected Tory government, with the franchise extended to weans. Make the case, and convince people.

 

Like many I am not some unionist with a love of the UK, I just remain highly sceptical that there will be any substantial difference from being independent.

 

The SNP can go along blaming the voters for being too thick to understand them (the People of Glasgow East were enlightened 2 years ago, but now are thickies who voted for a monkey in a red rosette because their grandad told them to?) What does Glasgow East tell you? Basically Labour does not have a right to rule in Glasgow and when they stuff it up and when the SNP put up a good candidate they will do well. So the people aren't morons at all.

[Chris near Oxford]

This article from a nationalist is completely on the button.

 

http://www.snptacticalvoting.com/2010/05/have-lib-dems-stymied-scottish.html

[KiwiJag]

Guess what will happen now? -a- Creepy dishonest Labour activists & daft voters will not accept that Brown blew billions of pounds due to financial incompetence (you're supposed to save some money when in surplus) -b- blame the tories for all the cuts that are coming. I'll bet they will accept zero responsibility for what's coming. Typical labour, inherit a healthy economy, ruin it, and leave the wreckage for someone else to clean up.

 

Spot on. It seems to be a common theme around the world that. Happened here in NZ too - Labour govt here ruined our economy after three terms in a row (gaining re-election twice on empty promises and rhetoric) but thankfully we saw the light and kicked them out at the last election. Things are MUCH better two years after their removal. Lets just hope lessons are learned - don't vote left unless you're happy to have an ever increasing government presence in your life.

[Mediocre Pundit]

Guess what will happen now? -a- Creepy dishonest Labour activists & daft voters will not accept that Brown blew billions of pounds due to financial incompetence (you're supposed to save some money when in surplus) -b- blame the tories for all the cuts that are coming. I'll bet they will accept zero responsibility for what's coming. Typical labour, inherit a healthy economy, ruin it, and leave the wreckage for someone else to clean up.

100% agreed.

[Phoenix]

The question every Scot should ask themselves is do you think we should be able to run our own affairs as a confident, independent equal partner in the European Union or be goverened by Wetminster and be reliant on handouts?

 

And that for me is exactly where the independence argument falls down. Joining Europe is not the answer, you only have to look at Ireland now to realise that.

Instead of relying on "handouts" from Westminster we would be reliant on Brussels.

Where would the money come from to run the country? Please dont fall back on the usual SNP argument about the oil.

[GrantB]

And that for me is exactly where the independence argument falls down. Joining Europe is not the answer, you only have to look at Ireland now to realise that.

Instead of relying on "handouts" from Westminster we would be reliant on Brussels.

Where would the money come from to run the country? Please dont fall back on the usual SNP argument about the oil.

 

So being nothing more than a region (which is how the EU refers to Scotland and Wales) is acceptable to you when we could play a full and active part as a full member? Even Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia have full EU membership.

 

Ireland is a smaller country than Scotland and has little natural resources. It still manages to attract investment from foreign companies as they can offer far lower buisness rates than we can. That is why I'm being made redundant and my job is going to Ireland.

 

Dont kid yourself on with Labour scare stories about our ability to survive independantly. This is the Labour party that told blatant lies before the 1979 devolution referendum that the oil would run out my the year 2000.

 

The only thing that is holding us back is ourselves.

[twinny]

So being nothing more than a region (which is how the EU refers to Scotland and Wales) is acceptable to you when we could play a full and active part as a full member? Even Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia have full EU membership.

 

Ireland is a smaller country than Scotland and has little natural resources. It still manages to attract investment from foreign companies as they can offer far lower buisness rates than we can. That is why I'm being made redundant and my job is going to Ireland.

 

Dont kid yourself on with Labour scare stories about our ability to survive independantly. This is the Labour party that told blatant lies before the 1979 devolution referendum that the oil would run out my the year 2000.

 

The only thing that is holding us back is ourselves.

 

Grant, putting aside any feelings about independance, don't you think that whilst the country has a very high rate of unemployment and national debt (I assume that Scotland is responsible for part of the deficit), isn't it a terrible time to think about independance? Obviously this is just in the short term, but with the increase in public spending that would be necessary, it just isn't currently feasable, and I don't think will be for a while yet.

[Phoenix]

So being nothing more than a region (which is how the EU refers to Scotland and Wales) is acceptable to you when we could play a full and active part as a full member? Even Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia have full EU membership.

 

Ireland is a smaller country than Scotland and has little natural resources. It still manages to attract investment from foreign companies as they can offer far lower buisness rates than we can. That is why I'm being made redundant and my job is going to Ireland.

 

Dont kid yourself on with Labour scare stories about our ability to survive independantly. This is the Labour party that told blatant lies before the 1979 devolution referendum that the oil would run out my the year 2000.

 

The only thing that is holding us back is ourselves.

 

Believe me Labour are the last people I would believe.

The only reason Ireland can currently offer lower buisness rates is because they are heavily subsidised by the EU. This money is drying up rapidly and Ireland could be in serious trouble soon (just look at their construction industry)

[GrantB]

Grant, putting aside any feelings about independance, don't you think that whilst the country has a very high rate of unemployment and national debt (I assume that Scotland is responsible for part of the deficit), isn't it a terrible time to think about independance? Obviously this is just in the short term, but with the increase in public spending that would be necessary, it just isn't currently feasable, and I don't think will be for a while yet.

 

I think that there will never be a 'right' time for Independence due to economic changes (many of which are unforseen i.e. the banking crisis). However, I strongly believe that we have in Scotland the tools and resources to stabailise our economy and play a role as a confident nation in our own right if we have the courage to go for it.

 

Believe me Labour are the last people I would believe.

The only reason Ireland can currently offer lower buisness rates is because they are heavily subsidised by the EU. This money is drying up rapidly and Ireland could be in serious trouble soon (just look at their construction industry)

 

Glad you dont believe the Labour spin. Apologies if I had made that assumption.

 

Ireland as a country has few natural resources in comparison to Scotland. This is one of the reasons why, historically, they have had mass emigration. I dont believe that we would suffer as badly as the Irish.

[crazy davie]

I think that there will never be a 'right' time for Independence...

There's always a right time. And it's always NOW.

[GrantB]

Poor turn of phrase from me. I meant that in a lot of peoples eyes, there will always be something that will be used by the unionists as a political tool to say the time isn't right for independence.

 

I 100% agree that the time is now.

[redandyellowallover]

I assume that Scotland is responsible for part of the deficit

 

The figure i've heard quoted is £17 billion.

[Mediocre Pundit]

The figure i've heard quoted is £17 billion.

The Scottish public sector, especially including their DB pension fund deficits, will be way more than that by itself. Add in RBS and HBOS and I'd imagine you're looking at about £60bn minimum.

 

The bottom line is that Scotland is ****ed and needs England to subsidise it. Wasn't always the case, won't always be the case, but right now - and especially with oil running out - it most certainly is the case. Get the cap out Salmond...

[The Devil's Point]

The Scottish public sector, especially including their DB pension fund deficits, will be way more than that by itself. Add in RBS and HBOS and I'd imagine you're looking at about £60bn minimum.

 

The bottom line is that Scotland is ****ed and needs England to subsidise it. Wasn't always the case, won't always be the case, but right now - and especially with oil running out - it most certainly is the case. Get the cap out Salmond...

 

 

Yep, those are the facts.

 

Anyone who wants to pretend Scotland could survive as an independent economic entity better have a magic wand to wave chronic alcoholism and drug dependency away. One in three people in Glasgow are incapable of work. Anyone who thinks you can base an economy on a workforce like that is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Edited May 17, 2010 by The Devil's Point

[Chris near Oxford]

I'd go along with Grant to a limited extent. If there was an overwhelming democratic case and popular will for independence then the obstacles we would have to take on the chin.

 

I don't think either nationalists or unionists should use the economic case as the trump card. It's either the right thing to do or not: nothing to do with short-term economic advantage.

 

The leadership of the independence movement is now more or less only the SNP leaders. However they have been sliding down a slippery slope from promoting the democratic & moral case for independence to the economic case for independence and now even further to the managerial case for independence (and by the way we'll keep the pound and British military bases, oh, and share a few embasssies).

 

I can see why they have done this. Support for independence is always higher outside of elections when the downside is discussed, so there are lots of people who would like independence, but remain sceptical of its benefits. But even if you add together the 20% or so who would want independence no matter the consequences to the nearly 20% who would think about it, then you would still not budge into a majority.

 

I only think independence will come about if there is a constitutional crisis in the UK. Basically the UK government would have to do something so terrible that people would want to leave. But given that Britain's only nuclear weapons are in Scotland (although American ones in England occasionally) and given that the Poll Tax still couldn't budge support for independence, it is hard to imagine what could be so damaging or who would be stupid enough to do it.

[GrantB]

Yep, those are the facts.

 

Anyone who wants to pretend Scotland could survive as an independent economic entity better have a magic wand to wave chronic alcoholism and drug dependency away. One in three people in Glasgow are incapable of work. Anyone who thinks you can base an economy on a workforce like that is living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

Straight out of the Labour party's big book of scary bedtime stories.

[The Devil's Point]

Straight out of the Labour party's big book of scary bedtime stories.

 

One out of three Glaswegians of working age claim Incapacity Benefit. We are a world leader in cancer, disability and premature death.

 

Scotland is much too ill for independence.

Edited May 18, 2010 by The Devil's Point