The Devil's Point Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Now that, good sir, is substantive bollocks. Erskine is one of the few reasons left to keep going to Firhill these days. I often enjoy watching Erskine, but if you want to build a consistent winning side you need to build a proper unit with everyone knowing what everyone else's job is. Erskine is erratic and unpredictable and that hinders us in trying to find a consistently workable system. As I say, a lot of talent. The ability to fit into a team has to go with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I can understand the posters opinion should he have only been to a few games this season. Erskine at times imho is a luxury but at the same time on many occassions is a magical/important player to have in your team. It's only my opinion but I can't recall a single game where Erskine has played well and we've been beaten. So I feel that before I rate Chris a magical/important player I'd like to come away from a defeat or a disappointing draw with the consolation of saying at least Erskine had a decent game. Maybe what I'm trying to say is when a wee bit of magic from Erskine turns a game or three and we sneak a few undeserved wins thru him alone then I'll start to see him as an important player. On the positive side I reckon there's no shortage of potential with Erskine and he's definitely worth pursuing with but at the moment I feel he's about 40% substance and 60% potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I often enjoy watching Erskine, but if you want to build a consistent winning side you need to build a proper unit with everyone knowing what everyone else's job is. Erskine is erratic and unpredictable and that hinders us in trying to find a consistently workable system. As I say, a lot of talent. The ability to fit into a team has to go with that. I want to be entertained on a Saturday. For me a predictable and consistent system at this level comes at the expense of genuine entertainment. Erskine's erratic and unpredictability is what makes football interesting. He produces moments of magic and madness. That's what I want to see. An element of that is absolutely essential to having a team people want to watch. If we had a consistently workable system but we scored the same goals all the time and became too predictable other teams would work us out. The best players in the world don't have a role; they just play football and do it intuitively. The most effective and challenging teams are the ones that are able to come up with something the other team hadn't anticipated or trained against. He's raw, but Erskine provides that. It's only my opinion but I can't recall a single game where Erskine has played well and we've been beaten. So I feel that before I rate Chris a magical/important player I'd like to come away from a defeat or a disappointing draw with the consolation of saying at least Erskine had a decent game. Maybe what I'm trying to say is when a wee bit of magic from Erskine turns a game or three and we sneak a few undeserved wins thru him alone then I'll start to see him as an important player. On the positive side I reckon there's no shortage of potential with Erskine and he's definitely worth pursuing with but at the moment I feel he's about 40% substance and 60% potential. People often said the same about Harkins. When Erksine plays well we play well. His bits of magic turn a largely predictable, mostly solid game-plan into a match-winning opportunity. The reason we lose is usually because we huff and puff with no game-plan or because of careless individual errors. You can't expect game-changers to change all games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Devil's Point Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I want to be entertained on a Saturday. For me a predictable and consistent system at this level comes at the expense of genuine entertainment. Erskine's erratic and unpredictability is what makes football interesting. He produces moments of magic and madness. That's what I want to see. An element of that is absolutely essential to having a team people want to watch. If we had a consistently workable system but we scored the same goals all the time and became too predictable other teams would work us out. The best players in the world don't have a role; they just play football and do it intuitively. The most effective and challenging teams are the ones that are able to come up with something the other team hadn't anticipated or trained against. He's raw, but Erskine provides that. I think most fans would rather have a predictable and consitent winning side rather than an entertaining losing one. Watching a real team work together is what makes football interesting. People will watch a winning Thistle side. They will not come in droves right now to watch a guy like Chris Erskine in a mediocre team. The best players in the world don't play for Thistle. The most effective teams at our level are the ones who can grind out results week in, week out. Erskine doesn't help us provide that. Good debate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 (edited) I think most fans would rather have a predictable and consitent winning side rather than an entertaining losing one. Watching a real team work together is what makes football interesting. People will watch a winning Thistle side. They will not come in droves right now to watch a guy like Chris Erskine in a mediocre team. The best players in the world don't play for Thistle. The most effective teams at our level are the ones who can grind out results week in, week out. Erskine doesn't help us provide that. Good debate Fundamentally disagree. Part of the unpredictability means that we'll win as many as we lose and score as many as we concede. We're never going to be world-beaters, and we're seldom if ever going to be thundering champions scoring consistently 2-3 goals a game and keeping tight at the other end. I don't accept the premise that by having players who don't fit into a boring rigid system somehow that means it's not a "real team". I also don't accept the premise that unpredictability means that the team can't work together. I would rather watch a Thistle side which challenged and was exciting but won, drew and lost games than one which was boring but won 1-0 a lot. If I wanted a predictable team that stuck to the same gameplan and played the same way all the time and was "consistent" I wouldn't be supporting Thistle. People don't go to the football because it's boring and it's expensive. It's not just because a team isn't winning. A team can be competitive and exciting and unpredictable without winning all the time. If we just won every game 1-0 it would be really boring and victories would feel hollow. It's the unpredictability that is the attraction of Thistle. Erskine is very much part of the team's make-up and is a game-changer. I don't really care if he's defensively hopeless or occasionally looks like a right diddy. The one or two times he gets it right in a game are genuinely exciting. Of course you need consistent players in a team, but if it's just a team of David Rowsons you're not going to get those moments of brilliance or a game-changing quality. Edited March 20, 2011 by Woodstock Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pie Of The Month Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 (edited) I'm going to make an assumption here which is not a major assumption. The creator of this thread clearly doesn't go to away games as if he did he would've noticed that Grehan was a major contributer in us going from a team who lost every game away from home to one who can outplay the league leaders at home along with outplaying Queen of the South only to be extremely unlucky. Of course instead of having a player who contributes to the general excellent play our team has had away from home maybe we should've spent beyond our means and kept Buchanan at the club playing as terribly as he had been. After all he's scored a couple of goals for Dunfermline so obviously McCall has made a massive mistake in letting him go. If I'm banned I really don't care but there's some absolute idiots on this forum such as the thread creator who should consider bothering their arse and actually going to all the games Grehan plays in rather than criticising him based on a few performances. I personally think Grehan has made more of a contribution to Partick Thistle in the last month or so than someone who has paid their £17 to complain about how shite we were against Cowdenbeath. Edited March 20, 2011 by Pie Of The Month Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 John Lambie Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Over-reaction pish. Has played not too bad when given a chance from the start. Play him until the end of the season & judge him on that, if he doesn't cut it, he's had his chance. He's never really had a chance to play in 10 games running to get some form. He has something, whether he can produce it consistantly we'll need to wait & see. Wins his fair amount of headers & 'has good feet for a big man'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Devil's Point Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Fundamentally disagree. Part of the unpredictability means that we'll win as many as we lose and score as many as we concede. We're never going to be world-beaters, and we're seldom if ever going to be thundering champions scoring consistently 2-3 goals a game and keeping tight at the other end. I don't accept the premise that by having players who don't fit into a boring rigid system somehow that means it's not a "real team". I also don't accept the premise that unpredictability means that the team can't work together. I would rather watch a Thistle side which challenged and was exciting but won, drew and lost games than one which was boring but won 1-0 a lot. If I wanted a predictable team that stuck to the same gameplan and played the same way all the time and was "consistent" I wouldn't be supporting Thistle. People don't go to the football because it's boring and it's expensive. It's not just because a team isn't winning. A team can be competitive and exciting and unpredictable without winning all the time. If we just won every game 1-0 it would be really boring and victories would feel hollow. It's the unpredictability that is the attraction of Thistle. Erskine is very much part of the team's make-up and is a game-changer. I don't really care if he's defensively hopeless or occasionally looks like a right diddy. The one or two times he gets it right in a game are genuinely exciting. Of course you need consistent players in a team, but if it's just a team of David Rowsons you're not going to get those moments of brilliance or a game-changing quality. Well we'll have to agree to disagree I think you'll find our crowds shoot up when we are consistently winning. Bring back Bertie Auld I say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Devil's Point Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 If I'm banned I really don't care but there's some absolute idiots on this forum such as the thread creator who should consider bothering their arse and actually going to all the games Grehan plays in rather than criticising him based on a few performances. I personally think Grehan has made more of a contribution to Partick Thistle in the last month or so than someone who has paid their £17 to complain about how shite we were against Cowdenbeath. No need to describe people with a different viewpoint as idiots. Perhaps you would have us all put down. I've not seen Grehan away because I only go to home games nowadays, but from what I have seen he is a very poor player indeed. If he plays well away from Firhill (yet still rarely scores) then fine, but that is not enough. I think he's rotten and Fraser should get the start from now on. Lets get Fraser learning and improving ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pie Of The Month Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 (edited) No need to describe people with a different viewpoint as idiots. Perhaps you would have us all put down. I've not seen Grehan away because I only go to home games nowadays, but from what I have seen he is a very poor player indeed. If he plays well away from Firhill (yet still rarely scores) then fine, but that is not enough. I think he's rotten and Fraser should get the start from now on. Lets get Fraser learning and improving ASAP. No I really do need to describe people as idiots if they base their entire opinion on a player based on a limited view of him. If I had never seen him play away from home I'd be careful when criticising him. However I have seen pretty much every game he's played since Buchanan left so I feel as if I'm much more qualified to have an opinion on him than most on this forum, if that comes across as me acting as if I'm some sort of better supporter then I apologise but the fact still remains that those who are being critical of him haven't seen how well he has played in games where we've had some excellent results away from home. Fraser should be nowhere near a start, his time on the pitch today proved that. He's 17 and putting too much pressure on him too soon will result in him not being able to fulfill his potential. Even if you don't go to away games, it doesn't take a genius to work out that McCall isn't going to throw a 17 year old in at the deep end when there's people on forums such as this who react to even a single poor performance as if a player has nothing to offer. Edited March 20, 2011 by Pie Of The Month Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Willjag Posted March 20, 2011 Members Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I thought Grehan had an ok first half and I also felt that the chance he had, the ball didn't come to him quickly enough and he had to sort of drag the shot rather than get a clean hit on it. There was definitely a big difference when he went off as Doolan didn't seem to be finding space the same as he did in the first half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck snort Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Harsh to single Grehan out yesterday when the whole team had a poor day. I thought he was having a decent game until he sclaffed the chance towards the end of the 1st half. Think that really knocked his confidence and he was poor after that. Noticed when he didn't take the chance just after Cowdenbeath went ahead that one of the players, think it was Rowson, went over to him to give him a gee up, so maybe he's the sort of guy who gets down on himself a bit quickly. If that's the case the last thing he needs is the fans getting on his back. In my opinion his general play has been improving over the season which has helped Doolan. Maybe he needs a couple more goals but if he's creating space for Doolan to score instead then he's doing his job as far as I'm concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Murray Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Grehan does not strike the ball cleanly enough and that shows in that he has only scored two goals this season. Real lack of confidence in front of goal as well, he should have done a lot better in that first half chance he had. I feel we desperately need another striker next to Doolan, given that Grehan does have a contract for next year he is worth keeping but not first pick on his performances so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blutarsky Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 He's been given hardly any game time until the last few weeks. perhaps a move to the MLS would address this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberteeb Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Worst player in 40 years at Firhill? There's been worse players in his role at Firhill in the past 2 or 3 years, Jim Hamilton and Lucas Akins. Grehan wasn't great yesterday but he was nowhere near the worst, there were a few utterly rank performances and then the rest were all poor, he was in amongst the rest of the poor ones. He has clearly become the scapegoat at Firhill as shown by the reaction of a fair number of fans when he went off. He could come good like other "never a footballer" candidates of recent years who have worked out well namely Paton, Boyle and Doolan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 What is frustrating about Grehan is his inability in front of goal. He does well in the air laying things off and can bring the likes of Doolan into the play. However, he is totally let down by his woeful attempts at shooting when presented with relatively easy chances like yesterday. His chance in the first half wasn't probably helped by him thinking he was offside given the way the 2 previous decisions had went from the JH side linesman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Grehan is under contract for next season. I can't see a full-time club taking him off our hands so we would have to pay him off. Perhaps a loan spell would do him good like Boyle, Kinniburgh and Doolan. Cheering his substitution will not help his confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Worst player in 40 years at Firhill? There's been worse players in his role at Firhill in the past 2 or 3 years, Jim Hamilton and Lucas Akins. Grehan wasn't great yesterday but he was nowhere near the worst, there were a few utterly rank performances and then the rest were all poor, he was in amongst the rest of the poor ones. He has clearly become the scapegoat at Firhill as shown by the reaction of a fair number of fans when he went off. He could come good like other "never a footballer" candidates of recent years who have worked out well namely Paton, Boyle and Doolan. Could be right about the scapegoat. That's why we need to keep him. Release Grehan and those who are happier groaning/booing/slating/jeering or whatever will want to move on to another. McCall is maybe over reticent in playing the younger players but perhaps he fears their confidence will be shattered playing in front of the teeth gnashing brigade. Any manager ideally wants to introduce young players at home rather than at an away game but when a sizeable minority of your support appear to enjoy mocking individual players then whether to start a youngster or not isn't an easy decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Could be right about the scapegoat. That's why we need to keep him. Release Grehan and those who are happier groaning/booing/slating/jeering or whatever will want to move on to another. McCall is maybe over reticent in playing the younger players but perhaps he fears their confidence will be shattered playing in front of the teeth gnashing brigade. Any manager ideally wants to introduce young players at home rather than at an away game but when a sizeable minority of your support appear to enjoy mocking individual players then whether to start a youngster or not isn't an easy decision. I would put him out on loan to build up his confidence - if McCall can bring in another striker on loan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I would put him out on loan to build up his confidence - if McCall can bring in another striker on loan. That could work but it's a bit late this season tho' I think there's technically 10 or so days left officially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camallain Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Worst player in 40 years at Firhill? There's been worse players in his role at Firhill in the past 2 or 3 years, Jim Hamilton and Lucas Akins. Grehan wasn't great yesterday but he was nowhere near the worst, there were a few utterly rank performances and then the rest were all poor, he was in amongst the rest of the poor ones. He has clearly become the scapegoat at Firhill as shown by the reaction of a fair number of fans when he went off. He could come good like other "never a footballer" candidates of recent years who have worked out well namely Paton, Boyle and Doolan. If it's me you are referring to with the "Worst player in 40 years at Firhill?" statement then at least be accurate I said "Grehan is one of the worst players I have seen in over 40 years of following the Jags!" And yes, in my opinion he is just as bad as the two you mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordie Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I can totally understand why people dont rate the big guy, for me I see something in him and feel he could be a player for us. He looks like a confidence player, the same as Boyle and look at tje difference this year in him. I said the same re Boyle last year, for what is worth, give the big guy a chnace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggy1967 Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I'm going to make an assumption here which is not a major assumption. The creator of this thread clearly doesn't go to away games as if he did he would've noticed that Grehan was a major contributer in us going from a team who lost every game away from home to one who can outplay the league leaders at home along with outplaying Queen of the South only to be extremely unlucky. Of course instead of having a player who contributes to the general excellent play our team has had away from home maybe we should've spent beyond our means and kept Buchanan at the club playing as terribly as he had been. After all he's scored a couple of goals for Dunfermline so obviously McCall has made a massive mistake in letting him go. If I'm banned I really don't care but there's some absolute idiots on this forum such as the thread creator who should consider bothering their arse and actually going to all the games Grehan plays in rather than criticising him based on a few performances. I personally think Grehan has made more of a contribution to Partick Thistle in the last month or so than someone who has paid their £17 to complain about how shite we were against Cowdenbeath. Im a season ticket holder Sir and I have missed only one home game this season. I have been to a few away games also. Clearly not as many as a special supporter like you. However if you feel that Martin is of value in his position as a striker with 2 goals to his name all season! Then you are easily pleased. I, on the other hand am sick to death watching his prancing around the pitch masquerading as a striker ( a striker is someone who scores goals ). If you or anyone else are telling me this is the best we can do then we might as well chuck it ! No he isn't the worst. I have heard Atkins and Hamilton's name mentioned . They were truly gash... yes worse than Grehan.. but only just ! Just how many games do we have to endure watching Martin Grehan ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jags365 Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 [quote name='Jaggy1967' date='20 March 2011 - 09:10 PM' timestamp='1300655401' post='44925' Just how many games do we have to endure watching Martin Grehan ? Until we can afford someone better, which, will not be for a long time. We can all see Grehan isn't a world beater, but cheering when he gets subbed off after not playing that badly isn't going to help matters either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggy1967 Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Until we can afford someone better, which, will not be for a long time. We can all see Grehan isn't a world beater, but cheering when he gets subbed off after not playing that badly isn't going to help matters either. Read the thread fully before you comment please ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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