Fawlty Towers Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Noticed today that Dunfermline announced losses of £430,000 for the year ended 31st May 2011. This is on top of QoS posting losses of over £250,000 and Morton losses of over £300,000 for the same period. Thistle posted a small (about £8,000) profit for that period. I know that there are a lot of fans who question if the Board have Thistle or PropCo's best interests at heart and say they should put their hands in their pockets but when compared to these clubs and, I would imagine, the other clubs from last season's first division who have to announce their figures then it certainly looks like we as a club are doing the right things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernsoul Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 From the Morton forum a couple of weeks ago: "Depressing reading yet again in that while the Club's annual losses have been materially reduced we are still hemorrhaging over £300k per annum - talk about an unsustainable business model! Without the benevolence of DDFR through loans from Golden Casket we are just about dead in the water." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 just heard on bbc scotland dunfermlan players full wages not paid for feb so all is def not well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Passenger Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) Noticed today that Dunfermline announced losses of £430,000 for the year ended 31st May 2011. This is on top of QoS posting losses of over £250,000 and Morton losses of over £300,000 for the same period. Thistle posted a small (about £8,000) profit for that period. I know that there are a lot of fans who question if the Board have Thistle or PropCo's best interests at heart and say they should put their hands in their pockets but when compared to these clubs and, I would imagine, the other clubs from last season's first division who have to announce their figures then it certainly looks like we as a club are doing the right things. How much do we owe Europa? Oh, and don't forget to factor in the loss of the Warriors cash when considering our financial stability. Edited February 29, 2012 by Dark Passenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 just heard on bbc scotland dunfermlan players full wages not paid for feb so all is def not well Losing/being owed £80K is bound to be affecting their cashflow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernsoul Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Losing/being owed £80K is bound to be affecting their cashflow. So will foolishly predicting average gates of 6000-7000 before the start of the season. £1,000,000 loss last year, £430,000 this year. No sympathy at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 How much do we owe Europa? Oh, and don't forget to factor in the loss of the Warriors cash when considering our financial stability. I don't know, our overall debt was stated at just over £600,000 at the open meeting earlier in the season but how much is to Europa I could not say. I certainly have not forgotten that and it will be a challenge for next season but that does not change the fact that our financial results for the last period were good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fredthecheesecloth Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 The Europa creditor in our accounts is quite a big deal. Billy Allen won't call it in, but if he did we would be in some hole. Accounts are nice, but they don't tell the real story. Go to Firhill on a Saturday, you get it all there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Passenger Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Accounts are nice, but they don't tell the real story. Agreed. This thread plus Beattie's views on vibrancy have added up to more bullish*t than I can swallow in a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Agreed. This thread plus Beattie's views on vibrancy have added up to more bullish*t than I can swallow in a day. I am no doctor but I would not recommend swallowing any of said substance in a day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKennan Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 The Europa creditor in our accounts is quite a big deal. Billy Allen won't call it in, but if he did we would be in some hole. Accounts are nice, but they don't tell the real story. Go to Firhill on a Saturday, you get it all there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 The Europa creditor in our accounts is quite a big deal. Billy Allen won't call it in, but if he did we would be in some hole. Accounts are nice, but they don't tell the real story. Go to Firhill on a Saturday, you get it all there. The Accounts are correct as they show a Trading Profit -the Europa Debt is clearly shown in them and is no different from any other debt -from memory its about £150K so by Football standards its not massive -it was however the only way we could continue to pay the outstanding HMRC debt -so we either have a debt to a Director which in theory could be called in OR we have a debt we struggle to pay to HMRC which they will definately call in -BUT we still managed a Trading Profit -Dunfermlines "Debt" is in the millions and they dont own there Stadium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fredthecheesecloth Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 The Accounts are correct as they show a Trading Profit -the Europa Debt is clearly shown in them and is no different from any other debt -from memory its about £150K so by Football standards its not massive -it was however the only way we could continue to pay the outstanding HMRC debt -so we either have a debt to a Director which in theory could be called in OR we have a debt we struggle to pay to HMRC which they will definately call in -BUT we still managed a Trading Profit -Dunfermlines "Debt" is in the millions and they dont own there Stadium I did not say that the accounts were incorrect to show a profit. I would say that by our standards, 150k would be considered 'pretty massive'. That could probably pay our teams wages for at least a few months? I agree completely that it is better owed to Billy than owed to Her Majesty's. Who owns our stadium? Wait, don't answer that, it opens up a can of worms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Passenger Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 The Accounts are correct as they show a Trading Profit -the Europa Debt is clearly shown in them and is no different from any other debt -from memory its about £150K so by Football standards its not massive -it was however the only way we could continue to pay the outstanding HMRC debt -so we either have a debt to a Director which in theory could be called in OR we have a debt we struggle to pay to HMRC which they will definately call in -BUT we still managed a Trading Profit -Dunfermlines "Debt" is in the millions and they dont own there Stadium Okay, I was under the impression the sale of Harkins and Twaddle cleared our debt to HMRC. Was a further £150,000 run up after that? If so, by whom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 "UNBELIEVABLE sums some people up. 2 hours after and open meeting with the full BOD CEO and manager (the 3rd meeting this season BTW) and you are criticising lack of communication and then talking about 'politics' on announcing afantastic investment. Really is that the first thing taht came into your head when you heard this news.!!! Why didnt you attend or get someone to ask questions on your behalf if you feel 'crtitisim on the way the club is being run' was valid point. Maybe the BOD should have a 4th meeting so you can get these points off your chest God knows what the the guys that put in the work think of this nonesense" "Guess I am not. Too many promises in the past not fulfilled. If the anouncement had been made before the meeting it could have allowed people to ask questions about it ( maybe they did) - such as is it in exchange for shares etc and what percentage of the club is now outwith the hands of DFCSS. Is the investment £100,000 ( 6 figures) or more? I am delighted that there is investment and do agree that the open meeting has to be applauded. I just dont like things being put out there as something good coming then nothing happens. To finish my moan were we not promised that funding was just waiting to come once we gave away controlling interest in the club and it took quite some time to come to fruition- if the folk who have now invested ( 10,000 & 100,000 minimum) are those who were going to invest in the first place. The days of me saying in the board we trust are long gone I am afraid- been burned too often for that, though you can see looking at my previous posts on this site that I do appreciate what those who are working for us now are doing. I just dont take everything on face value about football these days ( cynical old sod I know!)" Two very recent posts picked up from the Dundee forum. Change a few minor details and it just sounds like the same kind of old stuff we get on this board. So Thistle fans aren't really any different to fans of most other teams, just as likely to moan against things that the club do (or don't do) and against fellow fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Passenger Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Okay, I was under the impression the sale of Harkins and Twaddle cleared our debt to HMRC. Was a further £150,000 run up after that? If so, by whom? Any prospect of a response? I remember the fans being informed of the "£150,000 blackhole" in our finances - around the sametime mention was made of a unique fans fundraising initiative - but don't remember any mention of HMRC. Did I miss it? I've been waiting to hear about the initiative since December 2010, hopefully a reply on this issue won't take so long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKennan Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Any prospect of a response? I remember the fans being informed of the "£150,000 blackhole" in our finances - around the sametime mention was made of a unique fans fundraising initiative - but don't remember any mention of HMRC. Did I miss it? I've been waiting to hear about the initiative since December 2010, hopefully a reply on this issue won't take so long. I was under the impression directors has stepped in with an unsecured £150,000 to the club to stave off action by HMRC. Could that £150,000 have been part of a larger bill that also swallowed the transfer fees from Harkins and Twaddle? As JJ points out, far better to owe a director £150,000 than HMRC - as long as the director doesn't run out of patience and call it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 I was under the impression directors has stepped in with an unsecured £150,000 to the club to stave off action by HMRC. Could that £150,000 have been part of a larger bill that also swallowed the transfer fees from Harkins and Twaddle? As JJ points out, far better to owe a director £150,000 than HMRC - as long as the director doesn't run out of patience and call it in. i seem to remember there was still 70 grand still outstanding and wonder if the board paid that and any forthcoming bill for tax? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Dunfermline Athletic FC are nothing short of cheats. They have massive, massive debts and still took Buchannan from us (albeit doing us a favour) and then offered Paddy Boyle far more than we could offer. They are no different to what Motherwell did to us when they signed Craigan and Burns and deserve no sympathy when they end up back in Div 1 next season (unless the h uns situation somehow saves them) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Falkirk lost £410,000 in the last financial period which means that the 5 teams from last season's first division who have published their accounts (that I am aware of) have lost a combined £1,400,000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Dunfermline Athletic FC are nothing short of cheats. They have massive, massive debts and still took Buchannan from us (albeit doing us a favour) and then offered Paddy Boyle far more than we could offer. They are no different to what Motherwell did to us when they signed Craigan and Burns and deserve no sympathy when they end up back in Div 1 next season (unless the h uns situation somehow saves them) Are they paying their debts to the satisfaction of their creditors ? If so, why are they cheats ? That is like saying that I can't buy a box of cornflakes because I have a mortgage on my house. Having debt and paying it off is just good business practice, The problem comes if the debt doesn't get paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Any prospect of a response? I remember the fans being informed of the "£150,000 blackhole" in our finances - around the sametime mention was made of a unique fans fundraising initiative - but don't remember any mention of HMRC. Did I miss it? I've been waiting to hear about the initiative since December 2010, hopefully a reply on this issue won't take so long. Sorry didnt notice this -at the EGM (Round 2) it was confirmed we had a £200K Cashflow problem lAutumn 2010) which had been stated by David Beattie around the time -via a Director we attracted a £50K sponser package -obviously as the accounts show we covered the other £150K by not paying Europa -it was confirmed at the AGM January 2011 that we were still paying off HMRC and would complete the payments by August 2011 -so in short we stilled owed HMRC a healthy wad which took 12 months AFTER the Harkins Twadds sale to pay off -and if we hadnt had a Creditor who was also a Board Member we couldnt afford to pay HMRC as we would have had to pay our Creditor. Does that answer the question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Passenger Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 It explains a lot, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernsoul Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I've been waiting to hear about the initiative since December 2010, hopefully a reply on this issue won't take so long. I too, would like to know what the current situation is on this. I remember Fawlty Towers saying on this forum that an announcement on this was held back so it did not clash with the WaS night at Hampden, so it wouldn't take any of the attention off of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Are they paying their debts to the satisfaction of their creditors ? If so, why are they cheats ? That is like saying that I can't buy a box of cornflakes because I have a mortgage on my house. Having debt and paying it off is just good business practice, The problem comes if the debt doesn't get paid. As I understand it by far the largest part of their debt is constituted by what you could call soft loans. It might well amount to £10-£11M. So if that ever got called in that would be them goners (their ground I'm fairly sure is leased back to them and thus they have few assets). I don't suppose they'll ever be in a position to redress that.. Altho' they're showing trading losses I'd imagine they're par (npi) for the course in the SPL. I have a wee bit more sympathy for them than Grant as they had to strengthen their squad to play in the SPL or really what's the point of getting promoted in the first place. The fact they couldn't spend enough is by most accounts the reason they're bottom. Another example of where larger leagues would help alleviate the need to spend so much dosh to survive in the top flight. Edited March 8, 2012 by lady-isobel-barnett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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