lady-isobel-barnett Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 Has this been confirmed anywhere other than a news article that appears to have changed details from one published back in January? The reason Fraser never signed for Bolton at the beginning of the year was due to homesickness worries - if that is the case, I find it hard to believe that worry has diminished in the space of six months. A bit of a bizarre development which changes the face of the whole possible signing for me. I would rather play our own youngsters than nurture one for another club, especially one who has played as little football as Fraser. Tis bizarre indeed. I think as the lad's under 20 and assuming he isn't holding one of our own young midfielders back then it could be a decent enough deal. I'd like to think tho' that our financial involvement would be minimal. Only then does it make much sense. Not dismissing the good reports Fraser got last night by any means but it'll be quite a remarkable to see such a rapid development in a youngster. Going from midtable walk on parts in Div 1 to playing in a league above would take some doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagfox Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 The lad and another player at Hamilton came to an agreement to buy out their contract. Would be happy to get him and one or two others in on loan to add some depth to the squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 The lad and another player at Hamilton came to an agreement to buy out their contract. Would be happy to get him and one or two others in on loan to add some depth to the squad. Fraser bought out a 2.5 year contract? Then didn't apparently have a club to go to. This gets stranger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Edmonds Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 Loan signings should have a fair degree of pedigree about them that would suggest they would be in and around our starting 11/sub bench every week. Fraser does not have this. If the rumours are true that he's coming to us on loan then that's pretty underwhelming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Wragg Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Am in the same boat as Garscube Road End, with one small difference , I'm missing all of it, especially when Archie is being quoted as saying he'd love to sign him !! I do believe we need to become a bit more clinical and less charitable in bringing on youngsters for others to take at will !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleveland steamer Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Perhaps bit a case of getting a good U20 player in without paying for it? Even U20 players wages will affect our budget! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Has this been confirmed anywhere other than a news article that appears to have changed details from one published back in January? The reason Fraser never signed for Bolton at the beginning of the year was due to homesickness worries - if that is the case, I find it hard to believe that worry has diminished in the space of six months. A bit of a bizarre development which changes the face of the whole possible signing for me. I would rather play our own youngsters than nurture one for another club, especially one who has played as little football as Fraser. I get the homesickness thing. In January, he was probably just over 18 and apprehensive about moving away from home. With this new deal( assuming the year long loan is real), he will be at least 20 before he has to think about it. I think that gap is huge at that age. The other point is that we don't have enough under 20's yet to meet our obligation, so it makes sense to get some of them on loan too. There is the question, though, of why he doesn't appear to wan to play for Hamilton? Maybe we never will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 I get the homesickness thing. In January, he was probably just over 18 and apprehensive about moving away from home. With this new deal( assuming the year long loan is real), he will be at least 20 before he has to think about it. I think that gap is huge at that age. The other point is that we don't have enough under 20's yet to meet our obligation, so it makes sense to get some of them on loan too. There is the question, though, of why he doesn't appear to wan to play for Hamilton? Maybe we never will This is just what I was thinking. Also by signing for Bolton but being loaned to us he'll probably travel down there from time to time to meet up with the squad, coaches and manager. During this time he'll be able to familiarise himself with the area and get to know some people so when it comes to moving it won't be as difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firhillista Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 I get that the signing on loan of a 19-year old might seem underwhelming, but there's obviously a reason why an English Premiership team are keen to get him. And it's really time we stopped judging players by their age - how many major European ties now involve young guys in their late teens early twenties? A major part of the problem in Scottish football is we have far too low expectations of young players. We should be seeing far more nineteen year olds in our top division teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amsterdam jag Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 I get that the signing on loan of a 19-year old might seem underwhelming, but there's obviously a reason why an English Premiership team are keen to get him. And it's really time we stopped judging players by their age - how many major European ties now involve young guys in their late teens early twenties? A major part of the problem in Scottish football is we have far too low expectations of young players. We should be seeing far more nineteen year olds in our top division teams. Agree 100% with this. If do end up with Gary Fraser on loan and he proves to management that he is capable then get him in the first team. I have had an Ajax season ticket for about 10 years now and the number of players who I have seen him put into the first team at 17 or 18 is substantial. Best example of a player being signed by Ajax at a young age to play for youth teams and within a month was in first team was Christian Eriksen. Eriksen was signed for Ajax 3rd team and was so impressive they promoted him more or less immediately. Sneijder, Van Der Vaart etc I have all seen being promoted to play for Ajax first team at ages of 17 or 18. Then going onto win full international caps within a year. Now I am not comparing Fraser to any of these players but if we get him on loan and he is capable enough I see no reason not to include him in first team squad. It seems in Scotland football is played in general out of fear of losing so teams in general seem scared to promote youth. However last season I thought Thistle went against the grain as we had a very young team compared to the majority in Div 1 and won the league easily playing attractive football. I see nothing in SPL that makes me think we should change this policy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 I get that the signing on loan of a 19-year old might seem underwhelming, but there's obviously a reason why an English Premiership team are keen to get him. And it's really time we stopped judging players by their age - how many major European ties now involve young guys in their late teens early twenties? A major part of the problem in Scottish football is we have far too low expectations of young players. We should be seeing far more nineteen year olds in our top division teams. Nah; you won't win anything with kids. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 I get that the signing on loan of a 19-year old might seem underwhelming, but there's obviously a reason why an English Premiership team are keen to get him. And it's really time we stopped judging players by their age - how many major European ties now involve young guys in their late teens early twenties? A major part of the problem in Scottish football is we have far too low expectations of young players. We should be seeing far more nineteen year olds in our top division teams. I agree totally but should point out that Bolton is now a Championship club. Rooney was a teenager when he played for Everton. Ryan Giggs was 18 when he broke into the Man Utd side. Casillas and De Gea were playing in La Liga in their teens. Current examples include Raheem Sterling at Liverpool and Jack Wilshere at Arsenal. Our connection with Bolton is through John Henry who is a coach with the Wanderers' development squad. He stayed on after Dougie Freedman replaced Owen Coyle. Fraser is a good loan signing - can play for the Under 20s and, hopefully, challenge for a first-team place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancipital Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 (edited) re: Amsterdam Jag I dont think the issue is with Fraser's age itself, he's not much younger than Bannigan and SOD for example. However I believe if we're taking on a loan player at this level (or at any level tbh) it has to be someone from a higher level who markedly improves the team but we wouldn't be able to afford their full wages. Given Thistle's record in the loan market over the 25 years I've been going I'm not hopeful- the only standout one was Dorrans although there have been a couple who were good (Hutton, Murdoch). If this boy is good enough to do that at 18/19 then great, but if so why wasn't he in the Accies team for the first half of last season before the Bolton move fell through? Edited July 11, 2013 by Ancipital Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Given Thistle's record in the loan market over the 25 years I've been going I'm not hopeful- the only standout one was Dorrans although there have been a couple who were good (Hutton, Murdoch). ^ Must disagree. O'Donnell, Balatoni and Welsh were all good loan signings too. They were certainly good enough to win permanent deals and play a huge part in winning the First Division title. Hearts got £400k for Ryan McGowan who had good but short loan spell with us a couple of seasons ago. Andy Wilkinson was another good signing from Stoke - a regular in Tony Pulis's first-team squad over the last few seasons. He said that he benefited hugely from his spell at Firhill and loved the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 ^ Must disagree. O'Donnell, Balatoni and Welsh were all good loan signings too. They were certainly good enough to win permanent deals and play a huge part in winning the First Division title. Hearts got £400k for Ryan McGowan who had good but short loan spell with us a couple of seasons ago. Andy Wilkinson was another good signing from Stoke - a regular in Tony Pulis's first-team squad over the last few seasons. He said that he benefited hugely from his spell at Firhill and loved the club. O'Donnell was never a loan signing, however I do agree with everything else you have said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverandEver Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Disappointed we haven't shown an interest in Ziggy Gordon, Left Back at Accies. One year left on his contract, scotland U19, Hamilton's POTY last season. Maybe he is be too big for us, in a financial sense. and is the next player who will keep Hamilton afloat. What a player this guy is! Definitely should show an interest in him, good competition for sincy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
read'n'yell Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Left back is an area I think we need back up. I know Bannigan can play there but if he's playing midfield for Scotland 21's then he should for us also. Sinclair really had a lot of ropey defensive moments last season against very average opposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dariog Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Left back we have cover with Jordan Mc millan and Banzo Our Budget would be better spent with a flair player who can score to replace Erskine Or a season long loan deal for a good attacking player from a top club which would suit both teams ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancipital Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 (edited) ^ Must disagree. O'Donnell, Balatoni and Welsh were all good loan signings too. They were certainly good enough to win permanent deals and play a huge part in winning the First Division title. Hearts got £400k for Ryan McGowan who had good but short loan spell with us a couple of seasons ago. Andy Wilkinson was another good signing from Stoke - a regular in Tony Pulis's first-team squad over the last few seasons. He said that he benefited hugely from his spell at Firhill and loved the club. The difference is now we're in the top division we're unlikely to get loans from the same league apart from maybe Celtic so there's not the same scope for developing these guys if they're not good enough at the time to cut it in the top division as was the case with Balatoni and Welsh who have dropped down a level to re-start their careers. So we're probably looking down the route of English Championship or maybe even Premiership clubs for youngsters, but the wage differential at those levels will be huge, much more so than SPL- SFL1 last few seasons, so we're then faced with the scenarios of the loanees either being fantastic and much better than we have, which is good for the sake of this season but we've no chance of keeping them (I'm fine with this), or them being around the standard we have already, but very little chance of keeping them on if their parent club cuts them at the end of the season (not so happy with this). I had forgotten about Wilkinson, he had a good attitude and has probably played at a level higher than his talent allows due to hard work. McGowan's value would have nothing to do with 2 or 3 average games for us. I'm not denigrating the loan system entirely, some managers use it well (Watford took the piss a bit last season mind you) and it can benefit both teams and players, I do think we've had more bad than good over the years across all managers. Also: Ziggy Gordon is primarily a right back although he can play left back a la McMillan. I would rather have had him than Jordan all things being equal, but one cost us nowt and is still young enough to improve, whereas the other would probably have cost at least £100k so Archie probably took the pragmatic approach. Edited July 11, 2013 by Ancipital Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armand2 Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Given Thistle's record in the loan market over the 25 years I've been going I'm not hopeful- the only standout one was Dorrans although there have been a couple who were good (Hutton, Murdoch). Surely you have to include Stevie Craig in the list of standouts? His loan spell was probably the most prolific period of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancipital Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Surely you have to include Stevie Craig in the list of standouts? His loan spell was probably the most prolific period of his career. Semantics probably but whilst he was good I don't think he was significantly better than the vast majority of the team- I'd file him under good as well. Dorrans, -probably with a bit of hindsight- is the only one that sprung to mind who was too good for the level he was at when we had him on loan. Santala, who was on loan at the same time, clearly wasn't, for all the goals he scored. Hutton I'd put in the same category as Craig but there's already a whole thread about him This could end up a bit Monty Python from me (but aye, apart from them how many other good loanees have we had) so I'll just leave the names of Steven Campbell, Kal Naismith, Andy Stewart, and Steven Lennon to even it up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnyjag Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Billy Dodds and Colin West from Chelsea, two great loan signings that worked for us. Think we need to be realistic and explore all options and not pre judge what Archie is doing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dariog Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Would the connection of John Henry at Bolton not be a 2 way option for Thisltle We get a couple of players with potential from them on loan And as our players develop to Championship level I.e O Donnell, Muirhead and Bannigan etc we may well receive a suitable fee and loonies on an ongoing basis ? This may be a better approach as losing such players to English clubs in the next couple o seasons with small transfer fees or nothing as the players will use the freedom of contract Your opinion ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Would the connection of John Henry at Bolton not be a 2 way option for Thisltle We get a couple of players with potential from them on loan And as our players develop to Championship level I.e O Donnell, Muirhead and Bannigan etc we may well receive a suitable fee and loonies on an ongoing basis ? This may be a better approach as losing such players to English clubs in the next couple o seasons with small transfer fees or nothing as the players will use the freedom of contract Your opinion ? Why would our players wish to go to a championship side in two years time, when we will be playing in Europe in season 14/15, and champions league season 15/16, and winning it before 2020. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagfox Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Why would our players wish to go to a championship side in two years time, when we will be playing in Europe in season 14/15, and champions league season 15/16, and winning it before 2020. Money, Motherwell played CL and EL qualifiers last season but still saw half their first team leave at the end of the season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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