One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.

[Fawlty Towers]

I think the 19th of September may be a rather busy day for the police regardless what way the vote goes

 

Lets hope we are all celebrating on the 19th of Sept..........after we thrash St Mirren!

[Norgethistle]

Lets hope we are all celebrating on the 19th of Sept..........after we thrash St Mirren!

 

All joking aside things appear to be escalating at an alarming rate, trouble between yes and no demos in argyle street last night, a YES shop torched in Glasgow last night, the levels of abuse being brought by organised Yes mobs....... its all getting a bit sinister

[Meister Jag]

Thanks for the reply MJ. I feel you are overrating the Tories' 'devo max' proposal a wee bit though. Admittedly, it is better than Labour's pathetic pig in a poke proposal, but while income tax collection may be devolved all other revenues (including the oil and gas) will still be controlled by Westminster. Full devo max, i.e. full control over revenues, welfare and pensions with only foreign policy, immigration and defence being retained by Westminster, might interest me by way of a compromise, but what is currently on the table from the unionists isn't enough.

 

And that is assuming it even is on the table. Boris Johnson let the mask slip recently when he questioned why his party were promising more powers to Scotland in the event of a No vote. I can see his logic: the Tories fought tooth and nail against devolution in the '90s and now they are asking us to believe that they will deliver even more powers if we vote No!

 

There are pros and cons of bicameral vs unicameral parliaments. A second chamber would act as a safety valve for the first, but having just the one chamber means that government is less bloated (no bad thing). Even if we stuck with a unicameral system we would require additional ministerial posts to replace those currently filled in Westminster, but I don't see the change being massive. Regarding practicalities such as office space and staffing, we already have bodies on the ground; some Westminster departments have operational centres up here and the staff could just transfer over. Not everything need be headquartered in Edinburgh either: there is no shortage of office space in places like Dundee or Glasgow. One of the appealing aspects of independence, for me, is the potential to create a less centralised, less bloated state. Apparently Scotland has one of lowest levels of participatory democracy in Europe and we need to address this.

 

You'll never find me extolling the virtues of big business and if I thought that independence automatically equals an economy built on low-paid, low-skilled jobs then I too would be apathetic; the last thing I want is for Scotland to remain a country of wage slaves. But it needn't be that way. We could create an economy built around well-paid, high value jobs by specialising. I have seen hydrogen ship manufacturing being suggested, and then there is our huge potential for renewable energy.

 

Basically, an independent Scotland is a blank canvass and we shouldn't assume that it will be a mini-UK or that the SNP's vision will remain set in stone.

 

Thanks for your response, nice to have a discussion without bandying insults about. I seriously don't think I'm underestimating the Tories and I think they have taken a strategic gamble by even offering devo-max; plus haven't they more-or-less said that the parliament will get additional powers even if there is the expected 'No' vote (sorry, couldn't resist!).

 

But whatever happens, the machinery of government will need to grow; especially if Westminster power is devolved further. Salmond appears - to his credit - not to micro-manage but some of the ministerial portfolios seems bizarre and top heavy. Surely the cabinet must increase in size? If there is a Yes vote this will be an inevitable consequence of the referendum.

 

I have to say that I admire your optimism and accept that I'm maybe just overly cautious in that I have no faith in the present administration / political system; to include what's on offer by all sides of the referendum debate. As I think I've said before, here was a golden opportunity to offer the people of Scotland something different by increasing the role of the State for the common good. Perhaps nationalising power companies, some elements of public transport etc. But no, what we're getting is a reduction in corporation tax which suggests that a low-wage economy (presumably based on full-employment) will become the main feature of the economy. However, and this is perhaps where the No campaign has a point (although they are offering nothing other than the status quo), who will pay for the wage top ups afforded by Tax Credits etc. Can Scotland afford to meet this expense and has this been costed? (I bet it has as has the size of our welfare bill - DLA / PIP etc. Indeed, would changes to benefit entitlement mirror England and Wales? How much money will be made available to councils for crisis loans through the Scottish Welfare Fund etc. Do we just get independence and then expect / hope that the money is available?) Or do we simply expect ordinary people to cope with the pain of squeezed services and low-wage jobs? I say squeezed services as we're talking chicken and egg: taxes pay for services etc. No taxes, ergo no services...

 

From memory, the Scottish turn out during SP elections is low at around 50% which is admittedly low. Pretty sure this is higher than Wales but lower than N Ireland (my head is full of sh***!). But the higher than average turnout during European elections suggests that there will be a decent turnout. Add to that the reduction in voting ages (wonder why?) and there could be a decent level of engagement. No bad thing... even if all we're doing is handing over a mandate dictate for a few years (going off topic but once in power they can pretty much do as they please).

 

The second chamber debate is interesting and probably necessary for all the reasons you cite. Taking it away from the Edinburgh power base would also be a good idea.

 

Anyway, still voting No and trying hard to convince my kids who are both firmly in the optimistic Yes camp (as are most of their mates), why independence won't change much. Maybe they've been listening to my dour analysis for too long and can see a bright new future. However, it will come as no surprise when I say I can't (see above).

 

Cheers...

Edited September 1, 2014 by Meister Jag

[Guy Incognito]

Actually there was more than 1 person throwing, add to that the hate mob from YES (Which some YES folk now saying was NO campaigners in disguise!!!), whether people are listening to him or not does not entail for hate mobs to turn up en-masse and heckle in what appears organised demo's

 

The abuse shouted at Gordon Brown the other day again was out of order

 

This may show a bit what is going on

 

 

http://vimeo.com/104844421

 

Focussing on this kind of thing adds precisely 0 to the debate. I could sit here and point to a Yes shop being torched (as you have already mentioned), a registered No supporter kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach who had been arguing with him, an 80-year-old Yes volunteer being assaulted so badly while handing leaflets that he ended up with a broken arm, Yes activists being attacked by Hearts fans near Tynecastle yesterday and so on and so forth. But it would tell us little other than there are some absolute idiots in our society, and to infer that it is typical of either side doesn't advance anyone's argument one iota.

 

These 'organised hate mobs' are nothing but an invention of the No campaign though. Contrary to what they would like people to believe, there is no 'central control' of the Yes movement. I am not greatly involved myself but I know people who are and by all accounts its approach is largely spontaneous and grassroots. In any case, if I was going to organise a hate mob I would make sure it was a damn site more menacing than the collection of podgy middle-aged men and reedy voiced wifeys that appear in that video.

 

Last week was a disaster for the No campaign. This egg nonsense, whether real or contrived, is a text book deflection tactic which suggests that their arguments are spent. (By the way, has the egg-lobber been arrested yet?). I don't think those people should have challenged Murphy, I think it would have far funnier if everyone had just ignored him (although there is nothing wrong in trying to engage him in a verbal debate). But he knew that adopting a confrontational style would rile people and with a bit of luck provoke someone into doing something stupid.

[Jaggernaut]

Actually there was more than 1 person throwing, add to that the hate mob from YES (Which some YES folk now saying was NO campaigners in disguise!!!), whether people are listening to him or not does not entail for hate mobs to turn up en-masse and heckle in what appears organised demo's

 

The abuse shouted at Gordon Brown the other day again was out of order

 

"Hate mobs." = demoratic protesters. Have any arrests been made of these "hate mobs?" I remind you: who was it who threatened to slit Alex Salmond's throat? Who has been convicted for a referendum-related crime? Not a single individual of your s-called "hate mobs."

 

The abuse shouted at Gordon Brown by..... a Labour supporter?!

 

You're losing it.

[Jaggernaut]

Focussing on this kind of thing adds precisely 0 to the debate. I could sit here and point to a Yes shop being torched (as you have already mentioned), a registered No supporter kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach who had been arguing with him, an 80-year-old Yes volunteer being assaulted so badly while handing leaflets that he ended up with a broken arm, Yes activists being attacked by Hearts fans near Tynecastle yesterday and so on and so forth. But it would tell us little other than there are some absolute idiots in our society, and to infer that it is typical of either side doesn't advance anyone's argument one iota.

 

 

 

Norgethistle will not believe that these things happened.

[Jaggernaut]

There's a lot of interesting observations being made about this incident. By coincidence, somebody just happened to be focusing a video camera just at the right time on Jim Murphy's back. The egg-lobber, nothing whatsoever to identify him as a YES supporter in any way, calmly approaches, lobs his egg, then calmly disappears. This is all "caught" on video, with nobody, none of Murphy's team, doing anything whatsoever to either prevent the incident or attempt to intervene in any way. The egg-lobber's face is clearly visible, so you'd think that the police would easily be able to make an arrest and charge him with assault. But no arrest. But then Murphy calls off his tour of Scotland and claims that SNP "attack dogs" are making things impossible for him. Have you seen the videos of his tour? Nobody, but nobody is listening to him, nobody is turning up to listen to what he has to say.

 

A convenient way to avoid further humiliation, and also to create another lie and blame it on the YES campaign? We'll see.

 

The numpty who patted an egg against Murphy's back because Murphy wouldn't acknowledge his question handed himself in, got 80 hours of community service. The guy is not an "SNP attack dog' (drama queen Murphy's words), but a YES supporter.

 

Justice done in this case.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Jaggernaut

[Norgethistle]

 

 

The numpty who patted an egg against Murphy's back because Murphy wouldn't acknowledge his question handed himself in, got 80 hours of community service. The guy is not an "SNP attack dog' (drama queen Murphy's words), but a YES supporter.

 

Justice done in this case.

 

Agreed but also not a "plant" for a publicity stunt as was being branded about a lot on line

[PTFC1942]

If Scotland vote to become independent then do Scottish players in Scotland have to receive a permit before they are allowed to work in England, Wales and Northern Ireland?

 

Would this also be the case for all workers in Scotland?

 

Only asking.

[Norgethistle]

If Scotland vote to become independent then do Scottish players in Scotland have to receive a permit before they are allowed to work in England, Wales and Northern Ireland?

 

Would this also be the case for all workers in Scotland?

 

Only asking.

 

All dependent on whether Scotland becomes a EU / EEA member, if not immediately then by reckoning then yes they would unless a deal is struck between rUK and iScotland, on a personnel point of view my residence visa (open ended) if conditional on me being an EU citizen and is no longer valid if my nationality or my nations EU/ EEA membership changes , so not sure how that will effect me and several thousand like us in Norway, back down to the UDI to apply as a non-european worker which takes months and is so much harder to get

[Guy Incognito]

If Scotland vote to become independent then do Scottish players in Scotland have to receive a permit before they are allowed to work in England, Wales and Northern Ireland?

 

Would this also be the case for all workers in Scotland?

 

Only asking.

 

Not initially, but after independence it will depend on whether Scotland and/or rUK are still in the EU. If both parties are then there will be no issue. If one is and one isn't then there might be, and it will depend on the laws of the day regarding work permits.

 

Given that there are 800,000+ Scots living and working in England and close to 400,000 English doing likewise up here, then in that eventuality I reckon that any government, either in or out or the EU, would take the common sense approach and make it as easy for Scots or English people to live and work either side of the border as possible. In the 1960s Westminster did something similar regarding people from the RoI (the name of the act escapes me). Thus, no Irish person can ever be regarded as 'foreign' in the UK (unless the act is repealed, obviously).

[Fawlty Towers]

Saturday will be the last home prior to the vote and I would expect that people from both sides of the campaign would be looking to take their message to Firhill but I hope that it won't happen as I believe we should keep our politics and our football separate. I have e-mailed the chairman and managing director to ask if either side has asked for permission to hand out leaflets in or around Firhill (South Drive, car park, etc) as the club would have to give permission. I would hope that regardless of which side of the debate you are on you would respect the right of our club to keep itself out of this issue and allow us to simply focus on the thing we all want to see - a Partick Thistle victory!

[The Jukebox Rebel]

yougov for The Sunday Times puts YES ahead in todays poll.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-yes-vote-takes-shock-lead-in-poll-for-first-time-9716619.html

 

The Sunday Times spoiled their work by introducing an agenda "Unionist Queen fears break up" and "Queen is horrified by possible break-up of UK".

 

As far as I know, the Queen has issued no statement of the kind. Pathetic.

 

This is what we're constantly up against - snide little scare stories at every turn.

 

Despite this constant and shocking bias, it seems that the middle million are making their minds up.

 

Scotland's wealth has been squandered by the British government for years.

 

The people of Scotland are the only fit and proper people to look after Scotland.

 

It looks like we're coming to our senses at just the right time.

 

Ladbrokes have slashed the odds on Scottish independence TEN TIMES in just a few weeks.

 

13.08.2014 - 5/1

25.08.2014 - 9/2

26.08.2014 - 4/1

30.08.2014 - 7/2

31.08.2014 - 10/3

01.09.2014 - 3/1

02.09.2014 - 11/4

05.09.2014 - 5/2

06.09.2014 - 2/1

07.09.2014 - 7/4

 

I wouldn't like to be that guy with 200K on NO...

[Norgethistle]

yougov for The Sunday Times puts YES ahead in todays poll.

 

http://www.independe...me-9716619.html

 

The Sunday Times spoiled their work by introducing an agenda "Unionist Queen fears break up" and "Queen is horrified by possible break-up of UK".

 

As far as I know, the Queen has issued no statement of the kind. Pathetic.

 

This is what we're constantly up against - snide little scare stories at every turn.

 

Despite this constant and shocking bias, it seems that the middle million are making their minds up.

 

Scotland's wealth has been squandered by the British government for years.

 

The people of Scotland are the only fit and proper people to look after Scotland.

 

It looks like we're coming to our senses at just the right time.

 

Ladbrokes have slashed the odds on Scottish independence TEN TIMES in just a few weeks.

 

13.08.2014 - 5/1

25.08.2014 - 9/2

26.08.2014 - 4/1

30.08.2014 - 7/2

31.08.2014 - 10/3

01.09.2014 - 3/1

02.09.2014 - 11/4

05.09.2014 - 5/2

06.09.2014 - 2/1

07.09.2014 - 7/4

 

I wouldn't like to be that guy with 200K on NO...

 

Its still going to be the 8% undecided who swing it, the only poll that counts is the actual referendum

[Guy Incognito]

Saturday will be the last home prior to the vote and I would expect that people from both sides of the campaign would be looking to take their message to Firhill but I hope that it won't happen as I believe we should keep our politics and our football separate. I have e-mailed the chairman and managing director to ask if either side has asked for permission to hand out leaflets in or around Firhill (South Drive, car park, etc) as the club would have to give permission. I would hope that regardless of which side of the debate you are on you would respect the right of our club to keep itself out of this issue and allow us to simply focus on the thing we all want to see - a Partick Thistle victory!

 

But equally we should respect the right, in a democratic society, for both sides to peacefully express their views. Normally I am all for keeping politics out of football but the referendum is a unique situation. To attempt to stop either or both sides from leafleting near Firhill is just absurd in the current climate.

 

If people don't want to take leaflets then they have it in their gift to politely decline. It is as simple as that.

[Jaggernaut]

What I don't get is that Westminster has admitted to deceiving and lying to Scotland for decades, and yet still some people want to vote for more of the same...

 

The latest deception is the completely confused and ambiguous messages (a blatant infringement of the Edinburgh Agreement) about "new powers", an "agreed timetable" for "expansion of existing powers" etc. etc. What they mean is the SG can raise income tax, while Barnett will be slashed. That is not power in any sense, and people will be even more disgusted at this latest attempt at bribery and deception. The "no" camp has scored own goal after own goal after own goal. But the best boost for YES is probably still to come, when Farage and the flute band bigots descend on Edinburgh.

[Norgethistle]

What I don't get is that Westminster has admitted to deceiving and lying to Scotland for decades, and yet still some people want to vote for more of the same...

 

The latest deception is the completely confused and ambiguous messages (a blatant infringement of the Edinburgh Agreement) about "new powers", an "agreed timetable" for "expansion of existing powers" etc. etc. What they mean is the SG can raise income tax, while Barnett will be slashed. That is not power in any sense, and people will be even more disgusted at this latest attempt at bribery and deception. The "no" camp has scored own goal after own goal after own goal. But the best boost for YES is probably still to come, when Farage and the flute band bigots descend on Edinburgh.

 

Under independance the SG can raise income tax but the Barnett formula will be gone

 

As for bribery offering the Shetland islanders the full wealth from the oil lying in their waters must be up there, knowing that they are likely to vote No and in event of a YES vote have already tabled a bill to Holyrood asking for their own referendum as to whether or not to stay in an Independant Scotland

[Jaggernaut]

Under independance the SG can raise income tax but the Barnett formula will be gone As for bribery offering the Shetland islanders the full wealth from the oil lying in their waters must be up there, knowing that they are likely to vote No and in event of a YES vote have already tabled a bill to Holyrood asking for their own referendum as to whether or not to stay in an Independant Scotland

 

You mean that under independence the SG can raise all taxes? Thats 100%, from oil and whisky exports, income tax, business taxes.... And that money can be spent to improve the lives of the people of Scotland, rather than the small slice of it (to be reduced even further) handed back to us as a form of pocket money by Westminster.

 

Can you point me to a link that shows that Shetland has tabled a bill to Holyrood?

[Norgethistle]

You mean that under independence the SG can raise all taxes? Thats 100%, from oil and whisky exports, income tax, business taxes.... And that money can be spent to improve the lives of the people of Scotland, rather than the small slice of it (to be reduced even further) handed back to us as a form of pocket money by Westminster.

 

Can you point me to a link that shows that Shetland has tabled a bill to Holyrood?

 

Here is the bill rejected at Holyrood due to "Time scale" http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/islandgroups this movement has gained strength with over 2000 / 10% of the population signing the initial one that has been rejected and it is due to come back with a lot more

 

This is the reason the Scottish government have promised to give the Shetlands (0,8% of Scottish poplulation) the revenue (Up to 25% of Scottish predicted future oil, remember the Clair field is in their waters) from their waters http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27866413

[Jaggernaut]

Here is the bill rejected at Holyrood due to "Time scale" http://www.scottish....ns/islandgroups this movement has gained strength with over 2000 / 10% of the population signing the initial one that has been rejected and it is due to come back with a lot more

 

This is the reason the Scottish government have promised to give the Shetlands (0,8% of Scottish poplulation) the revenue (Up to 25% of Scottish predicted future oil, remember the Clair field is in their waters) from their waters http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-27866413

 

Sounds like the kind of bribe that Westminster is offering us, except that the SG has been specific and up front.

[Norgethistle]

Sounds like the kind of bribe that Westminster is offering us, except that the SG has been specific and up front.

 

At least Westminster allowed us our independance referendum, the SG stopped the Shetlanders

[Guy Incognito]

Sounds like the kind of bribe that Westminster is offering us, except that the SG has been specific and up front.

 

It actually sounds a lot better than the deal Westminster are offering us. None of the so-called devo-max packages suggested so far have included us having control of our oil revenues.

 

This is a bit off-topic but it surprises me that pro-independence Shetlanders (that is, pro-Shetland's independence) are against Scotland's independence. I can understand why they might want their islands to be independent from Scotland but after everything the British establishment has thrown at Scotland over the course of this debate do they really think they'd have an easier time dealing with Westminster than Holyrood?

[Collins Out!]

The establishment are shiting themselves now.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Here is the bill rejected at Holyrood due to "Time scale" http://www.scottish....ns/islandgroups this movement has gained strength with over 2000 / 10% of the population signing the initial one that has been rejected and it is due to come back with a lot more

 

This is the reason the Scottish government have promised to give the Shetlands (0,8% of Scottish poplulation) the revenue (Up to 25% of Scottish predicted future oil, remember the Clair field is in their waters) from their waters http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-27866413

 

Sorry Norge, you’re completely wrong.

 

There’s never been a bill on Shetlands independence.

 

The link you refer to was merely an “online petition”.

 

The petition idea came from Catriona Murray in Stornoway and Malcolm Lamont in Lerwick, two mysterious individuals who have told the media they are only contactable by email.

 

The petition seeks three independence referendums – one for the Western Isles, one for the Shetland Isles and one for the Orkney Isles.

You don’t even have to live in any of these places to add your electronic signature.

 

Signatures have been gathered from every corner of the globe stretching all the way to New Zealand.

 

The petition total for all three islands?

 

1,137.

 

If there’s an appetite for Shetland independence – which doesn’t seem likely in view of the numbers on that petition – then they should create a political party and vote for it.

 

Meantime, an electronic petition from two jumpers in a Lighthouse is hardly going to cut the mustard.

[Fawlty Towers]

But equally we should respect the right, in a democratic society, for both sides to peacefully express their views. Normally I am all for keeping politics out of football but the referendum is a unique situation. To attempt to stop either or both sides from leafleting near Firhill is just absurd in the current climate.

 

If people don't want to take leaflets then they have it in their gift to politely decline. It is as simple as that.

 

Near Firhill is the key part - people are free to do want they want (within the confines of the law) up and down Maryhill Road but what I meant was actually in the stadium or the areas that the club is responsible for. Lets be honest the only people who you should have to put with are the 50/50 sellers (what a shameless plug but everyone is campaigning these days).