1971 Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 (edited) I think it's dangerous to staunchly defend Archibald at all costs purely due to his legendary status at the club, because there are some very valid criticisms of him just now. I'm happy to give him the next month to improve our current downturn and show that he does have some ideas, but if it became clear that a revolutionary appointment like Craig Levein would be willing to work for us, we should take that chance immediately. it could be the difference between us being a short 1-2 year visitor to the top flight or an every-season regular like St Johnstone or ICT who are now in top 6 territory. How generous of you. And "show that he has some ideas"? I think he did that when he took us from second place with a shocking away record to champions who were near perfect for the rest of the season. But you're right, let's get Craig Levein in... Edited December 2, 2013 by 1971 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow & Redneck Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Nobody is detracting from Archie's achievements last season, but it is a hell of a lot easier to motivate a team that is winning every week after taking over from the good foundation McNamara left. Where a manager should be judged at this level is how he and his players react when things aren't going well. Are we improving, are we learning from mistakes, are we reacting to other teams tactics, are adapting our style of play. And I'm sorry, but we aren't doing that at the moment. Is Archie the right man for the job at this present moment? Yes, very much so. If he can bring in a few faces in January and cut out the mistakes I still think we can finish 7th or 8th which would be a crowning achievement. But at the moment you can't blame people for being despondent as the gaffer is saying all the right things, without seeing it materialise on the park. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peagreenboy Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Craig Levein and revolutionary in the same sentence. That's hilarious! Archie's got another month or we bring in Owen Coyle! My sides are hurting. This is clearly the comedy thread to cheer us all up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 I think it's dangerous to staunchly defend Archibald at all costs purely due to his legendary status at the club, because there are some very valid criticisms of him just now. I'm happy to give him the next month to improve our current downturn and show that he does have some ideas, but if it became clear that a revolutionary appointment like Craig Levein would be willing to work for us, we should take that chance immediately. it could be the difference between us being a short 1-2 year visitor to the top flight or an every-season regular like St Johnstone or ICT who are now in top 6 territory. If Craig Levein agreed to work with us he would only be using us as stepping stone for another big job, as he did with Raith Rovers. Who's to say he would be a good appointment anyway? People are accusing Archie of not knowing how to change things. Craig Levein has a PHD in that subject. His time as Scotland manager showed him to be pigheaded and stubborn when it became clear his tactics and team selections weren't working. No deal Mr Edmonds. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvershadow Posted December 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 At least Archie plays a striker! You can just see the crowds flocking to Firhill to watch Levins exspansive 4-6-0 formation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armand2 Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 I'm certainly not proposing the removal of Archie as manager - and if others took some time to think, I don't think they would either - but what is becoming increasingly evident is that he is tactically inflexible and is content to send the team out in a system which has failed us so far this season without doing much to correct blatant deficiencies; should this continue then question marks will rightly begin to arise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cup Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Levien wasn't up to international level but his record at Dundee United and Hearts was good. He would be a fantastic appointment even if it is for short term. He would certainly sort out our defence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Levien wasn't up to international level but his record at Dundee United and Hearts was good. He would be a fantastic appointment even if it is for short term. He would certainly sort out our defence. His international win % (41.67) isn't all that different from his Hearts or Dundee Utd equivalents (43.53 and 40.15). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cup Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Levien's international record was poor as he couldn't beat pish like Macedonia and Wales. It should have been a lot higher than 41% after 24 games. Stuart McCall's win ratio at Motherwell is 42% and Butcher's was 41% at ICT. That's a good percentage in over 130 top flight games. I would rate Levien as good a Premiership manager as McCall or Butcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Peebles Tackle Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Levein? Coyle? Come on, why are we even suggesting this? Archie is the manager. Archie got us promoted last season. He deserves at least a full season. The realistic fans amongst us knew it was gonna be tough. I said before a ball was kicked that we are ahead of where we thought we'd be & should simply enjoy the ride. So far, I have to say, I generally have. Sure, a few more goals & wins wouldn't go amiss, but we're a young side who are playing in the SPL on a 1st Div budget. The club have been very sensible here & I commend that. I'd rather see us lose every week than go broke trying to fix it. At least we have a team to follow. Chin up - we'll get some wins & Archie will learn his craft, of that I have no doubt. We need to support him & the team though & stop panicking & calling for Coyle or Levein - or anybody else for that matter... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunnylaw Jag Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Levien wasn't up to international level but his record at Dundee United and Hearts was good. He would be a fantastic appointment even if it is for short term. He would certainly sort out our defence. At the very least you wouldn't be the biggest twat around Firhill then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Edmonds Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 And "show that he has some ideas"? I think he did that when he took us from second place with a shocking away record to champions who were near perfect for the rest of the season. He was literally the only person who was capable of taking us to the title from the position we were in, due to his personal relationship with the players and the continuation of the fine work McNamara had done for us. Any other appointment would have had a high risk for disrupting the players and ******* up our title bid. He was the right appointment then, and I'm not even calling for him to be dismissed now as of yet. But there are valid criticisms in that we are quite simply being pumped every single week right now, showing no tactical deviation from the issues that are seeing us barely managing to register goalscoring opportunities let alone goals themselves, and also the clown car defending that has seen us fail to register a clean sheet since the opening game. The next month is big for him, with three winnable home games and Killie away - with no improvement, I believe we should then be looking for a replacement manager. But that's some way off yet. My position on Levein is that he would indeed be a revolutionary appointment. His club career in management only reads success, and shouldn't be forgotten as the talented young manager that became the runaway candidate for the Scotland job before the ensuing disappointment (where even then the national team only really performed in line with realistic expectations). When he went to Dundee United they weren't in an all that dissimilar position to ourselves, ie, relegation candidates, but with lots of potential through a decent fanbase, stable finances, youth academy, good players, etc. Everyone saw the work he did with United, only a fool would view his time there as anything other than being a rampant success. If it was known he would be interested in working for us, we should act immediately to bring him in, because it could very well take the club to the next level along with the likes of St Johnstone and Caley, as opposed to sinking back into the second tier mid-table dross level a la Falkirk/Hamilton/Dundee. In summary I'm in full support of Archibald as of now, but if there was an obvious improvement to be had, I wouldn't want loyal happy-clapping standing in the way of the club moving forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Edmonds Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 If Craig Levein agreed to work with us he would only be using us as stepping stone for another big job, as he did with Raith Rovers. Who's to say he would be a good appointment anyway? So what? You don't think Archibald would,quite rightly, choose to work at a higher level if the opportunity presented itself to him? If not, why not? People are accusing Archie of not knowing how to change things. Craig Levein has a PHD in that subject. His time as Scotland manager showed him to be pigheaded and stubborn when it became clear his tactics and team selections weren't working. Why are you being so ignorant to his undeniable success at club level? Better managers than him haven't succeeded at international level, and yet went back into management at club level and have again been as successful as they were before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Willjag Posted December 2, 2013 Members Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Levein failed miserably with Leicester. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabbath Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Leveins ambition when he took over the Hearts job was 3rd place that in layman’s terms is no ambition at all. Ferguson when he took on East Stirling was to win and retain the European cup Ambition is to be the best not an also ran.. Levein has only got one thing and that’s a good press agent. Archie’s the man, don’t panic, the defence is no worse than the rest of the league, we just need a big striker. Chase Kerr & Baird and give a verbal warning to Craigen for not doing his job and get back to using the wingers, if ATS is reneging on signing then a replacement must be found. One touch is all well and good but the ball must move forward quicker and the shots must be harder. If stupid names are going to be pulled out the hat how about Alex Ferguson he’s doing hee haw just now 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Edmonds Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 (edited) Levein failed miserably with Leicester. Hearts and Dundee United are far more suitable comparisons, obviously. Edited December 2, 2013 by Noel Edmonds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 So what? You don't think Archibald would,quite rightly, choose to work at a higher level if the opportunity presented itself to him? If not, why not? Why are you being so ignorant to his undeniable success at club level? Better managers than him haven't succeeded at international level, and yet went back into management at club level and have again been as successful as they were before. If Archibald moves to a bigger club it will most likely be because we have had a great season. You failed to mention Levein's time with Leicester City. Who's being ignorant now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggy Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Levein failed miserably with Leicester. goes for nothing really Will. Derek McInnes failed miserably at Bristol after doing well at Perth, and now seems to doing a decent job at Aberdeen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Edmonds Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 If Archibald moves to a bigger club it will most likely be because we have had a great season. You failed to mention Levein's time with Leicester City. Who's being ignorant now? Likewise Levein? Bit of a silly point you're making there. Also, Hearts and Dundee United are far more suitable and relevant examples of why there would be a strong chance of him being a success at Partick Thistle if he ever became interested in the job. See above example of Derek McInnes as to why stints at English Championship disaster clubs like Leicester and Bristol City are not necessarily indicative of any potential to succeed in Scotland. Imagine for a moment there was a vacancy at Thistle currently: would people really be opposed to Levein? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Likewise Levein? Bit of a silly point you're making there. Also, Hearts and Dundee United are far more suitable and relevant examples of why there would be a strong chance of him being a success at Partick Thistle if he ever became interested in the job. See above example of Derek McInnes as to why stints at English Championship disaster clubs like Leicester and Bristol City are not necessarily indicative of any potential to succeed in Scotland. Imagine for a moment there was a vacancy at Thistle currently: would people really be opposed to Levein? Not really. Levein would use us as a short term solution to getting back in to the game. We would most likely be back to square one within 6 months. Regardless, Levein is not a realistic suggestion, there's no way we could afford his wages. Likewise with Owen Coyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Edmonds Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 (edited) Not really. Levein would use us as a short term solution to getting back in to the game. We would most likely be back to square one within 6 months. Regardless, Levein is not a realistic suggestion, there's no way we could afford his wages. Likewise with Owen Coyle. It is impossible to categorically say that he would do this. Regardless, McNamara was only with us for little over one and a half years, and yet his appointment completely changed the club and ultimately, along with Archibald finishing the job, got us into the top flight. Managers don't necessarily need to be long-term to be successful - observe how McCall's reign withered away into below average dross post 2009. Also, Levein may or may not be a realistic option, but the fact he has applied for ICT, combined with all the things we currently have going for us that make us a club of fairly sizeable potential, doesn't make it all that far-fetched an idea that he would come to us. If we did get him he could well be the most high-profile appointment the club's ever made. Edited December 2, 2013 by Noel Edmonds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yokerjag Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 i remember reading on here a few weeks ago after another shafting that "we would learn from it and move on". well. hee haw has been learned (craigen marking consodine for example) archies reluctance to play 2 up front will end up costing him his job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 i remember reading on here a few weeks ago after another shafting that "we would learn from it and move on". well. hee haw has been learned (craigen marking consodine for example) archies reluctance to play 2 up front will end up costing him his job There certainly seems to be a stubborn refusal to shift from the lone striker notion, which hasn't been working now for a couple of months. (Even our winner at ICT was only due to an unexpected blunder by their keeper.) The novelty factor has now gone from our game, and we need to try different formations and tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie Thistle Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 ..........time to play ugly, and hopefully friggin Win Ugly!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 John Lambie Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 i remember reading on here a few weeks ago after another shafting that "we would learn from it and move on". well. hee haw has been learned (craigen marking consodine for example) archies reluctance to play 2 up front will end up costing him his job Osbourne was supposed to be marking Considine (as he was for later corners) but there was a spare player in the box unmarked, Cragen pointed Osbourne towards said player & Craigen market Considine. That certainly wasn't Archie's fault & something that probably happens at every corner, just unluckily it may have contributed to us losing a goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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