Ruchillnomore Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 It really depends on your definition of youth I would argue that the only manager in this Division that relies on youth is the Hearts manager. Archie has a talented squad that at times plays really attractive attacking football however on the other hand cant defend for the life of themselves and thats with the manager and assistant manager being experienced defenders in a previous life. As for the resale value at this moment in time the only realistic asset that we could hope to get money on is Aaron as his contract is up at the end of the season and selling him now would obvioulsy get the club money. I agree the rest of the squad could technically be sold at any time during a window however cant see anyone battering down the doors at the moment I hope that Gary Fraser goes on to realise his potential and is eventually someone who could make a lot of money for the club. I dont deny that Archie cares deeply and has the club at heart. However when it comes to a manager then I want to see the whole package in organising the team. If you look at the last 3 home games then all 5 goals are totally avoidable through basic defending from the Goalkeeper through to the back four. Lets cut out the basic mistakes and defend properly lets have a proper spine in the team thats everything I want to see in a manager and I really hope and want that person to be Archie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Yes, he is trying to play football, he is rellying on youth (That potentially has a re-sale value), and he seems to care deeply about the club, everything I want to see in a manager Results?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hosie Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 It really depends on your definition of youth I would argue that the only manager in this Division that relies on youth is the Hearts manager. Archie has a talented squad that at times plays really attractive attacking football however on the other hand cant defend for the life of themselves and thats with the manager and assistant manager being experienced defenders in a previous life. As for the resale value at this moment in time the only realistic asset that we could hope to get money on is Aaron as his contract is up at the end of the season and selling him now would obvioulsy get the club money. I agree the rest of the squad could technically be sold at any time during a window however cant see anyone battering down the doors at the moment I hope that Gary Fraser goes on to realise his potential and is eventually someone who could make a lot of money for the club. I dont deny that Archie cares deeply and has the club at heart. However when it comes to a manager then I want to see the whole package in organising the team. If you look at the last 3 home games then all 5 goals are totally avoidable through basic defending from the Goalkeeper through to the back four. Lets cut out the basic mistakes and defend properly lets have a proper spine in the team thats everything I want to see in a manager and I really hope and want that person to be Archie Perhaps 'lack of top flight experience' would be a better way of describing the squad. Remember the side the started the first game of the season against Dundee United hadn't a single SPL appearance to their name. A lot of the players we would want and would improve our squad other clubs would want too. Given a choice between Thistle and, say, Motherwell assuming the wages and contract length are broadly similar; a player will pick Motherwell more often than not. Established top flight club and less of a relegation risk than us. Getting here was the easy bit, staying here is altogther harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Results?! He's had better results in his 1st year than Jackie had in his Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Gekantawa Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 It really depends on your definition of youth I would argue that the only manager in this Division that relies on youth is the Hearts manager. Archie has a talented squad that at times plays really attractive attacking football however on the other hand cant defend for the life of themselves and thats with the manager and assistant manager being experienced defenders in a previous life. As for the resale value at this moment in time the only realistic asset that we could hope to get money on is Aaron as his contract is up at the end of the season and selling him now would obvioulsy get the club money. I agree the rest of the squad could technically be sold at any time during a window however cant see anyone battering down the doors at the moment I hope that Gary Fraser goes on to realise his potential and is eventually someone who could make a lot of money for the club. I dont deny that Archie cares deeply and has the club at heart. However when it comes to a manager then I want to see the whole package in organising the team. If you look at the last 3 home games then all 5 goals are totally avoidable through basic defending from the Goalkeeper through to the back four. Lets cut out the basic mistakes and defend properly lets have a proper spine in the team thats everything I want to see in a manager and I really hope and want that person to be Archie As for not being able to defend, I note that the defensive records of the bottom 5 clubs are all broadly very similar, with only Killie out of the 5 having a better record (3 fewer goals conceded). So our defence is, at least, no worse than the teams around us (and hopefully will improve with Mair - two in two since he started isn't too bad). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruchillnomore Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Totally agree with your post Tom and understand the factor of games played ratio. I think that St Johnstone bore that out on Tuesday night with the experienced players who have played more SPL games than ours i.e. winning 1-0 and managing to see the game out with timewasting and all the other negative tactics that go with it and dont get me wrong they can play the other way as well first 30-40 minutes as an example. If that is where we are then what we have to do is get the basics right and unfortunately at the moment our defending at times is shocking. So point in question is if that is the big issue then thats where the manager earns his corn. I know that being a Jags fan is a rollercoaster that why I buy the ticket good times or bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 He's had better results in his 1st year than Jackie had in his When you also put it like that... I've supported the manager 100% up until the last couple of games (excluding Tuesday night's). I think all things considered he's done very well in the Jan window and with that then the BoD are obviously showing their support to the manager. He's had a lot to contend with in the last year with many different things and i've been very critical of the lack of support from the BoD withe certain things- scouting systems, training facilities for two!! But... I'm getting hell of a frustrated with his persistence with the same formation despite a small squad which has been ravaged by injuries and suspensions and it not working at home. He squeezes players into the formation despite them looking less thean comfortable there. Two examples- Craigen as defensive midfielder, Bannigan wide left of a front 3 and attacking midfielder ahead of the player- that after the performance of the season for me at St Mirren Park earlier in the season. Then there is the substitutions. Every man, woman and dog could see that against Ross Co & Killie we were getting deeper and deeper but there was almost a reluctance to make a change. Even then the changes seem to be predictable. Lawless for Elliot after about 65 mins seems to be the favourite at the moment!! Also, why was he or any of the coaching staff not standing shouting at the edge of the park getting messages across when we were getting deeper and deeper? It just seems naive. The changes are very rarely, if ever, a change in formation. Just a change of personnel. Trust me, I want the guy to succeed. For himself and for PTFC. At this moment in time I have serious doubts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 I see this point a few times regarding Archie. I don't get why he has to shout. The players are all adults. I see him talking to players on the touchline every game. Does he not speak clearly enough to get his point across? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 He's had better results in his 1st year than Jackie had in his Not sure what the connection is Football happens to be about results Perspective ..... We have gone steadily down the league..... Fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancipital Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) For me the overriding emotions are of frustration and missed opportunities. I thought when we came up that we had a really good chance of establishing ourselves compared to last time when everyone was spending more than they could afford which would eventually come back to haunt them -lest we forget that the league of 03/04 contained Rangers, Dundee, Hearts, Livi, and Dunfermline. You can certainly argue that we are unlucky that 11th finally gets the play off spot it was due the year we come up but I think that is outweighed by having a basket case Hearts in the league and no Rangers in their old guise- we only have to finish above one of 10 (compared to 9 last time) other non OF clubs who started on the same points as us. I look at teams like both Saints and both Highland clubs, not much bigger if at all in terms of support but 3 out of the 4 are well established clubs and County IMO are on their way to becoming one. I appreciate it doesn't happen overnight but we are still basically a lower league club- the myriad of off-field issues where we've missed a trick or ten have been covered plenty of times in other threads- but as for the on-field situation... my worry is that the ship for this season has already sailed since the Hibs game in December until Tuesday or maybe tomorrow. We've easily flung away 10+ points in that spell. Even if we do get a result tomorrow, we then have a series of games coming up against teams that are significantly better than us, and the confidence / mentality of the players has been shot already. Here's a funny stat as well- only once in the league this season have we improved our position from half time to the end of the game- St Mirren away (draw to win), think there must be half a dozen cases of the reverse- for example of the 8 draws we've had this season 2 have been 0-0 and in the other 6 we've conceded the final equaliser (3 times in the last 5 minutes onwards). Funnily enough the game after the St Mirren away game vs Aberdeen was when I feel teams properly sorted out our SFL1 tactics and we've struggled since. I can't see us finishing anywhere but 11th unless we go on a run after the split and I feel we'll be a few points adrift there. Even then, my gut feeling is I'd like to see Archie in charge but much like last year, if the squad isn't in the top division the following season I can see it being picked apart. I know guys are under contract but we don't know what clauses are built in or how happy they would be to remain if token offers came in. If we do go down then I will wonder if we should have changed it. I think Archie has done well in the transfer market, Baird & Kerr have been terrible signings and Mukendi was a risk-free gamble that didn't work, but no-one signs players that work out all the time, not even Ferguson or Mourinho, and I think his ratio of good / bad is more than acceptable. Considering we're so tinpot as to not even have a scout he's done well from limited contacts. Main issues I have with Archie are the inflexibility of the tactics, inability to hold leads and - though touch wood this has improved in recent weeks- defend set pieces. Don't have a problem with not shouting loud or ranting on the touchline (think Bunnet, think GC). We've been unlucky with Ozzy's injury but what if he'd got a deal down south in the first place, would we have been landed with Kerr or the "vanilla midgets" playing the holding roles(as someone -not I- brilliantly christened the rest of our midfield on P & B?) I don't want Archie out, but I have strong and legitimate concerns. Even if we can scrape through the playoffs though that gives us something to build on for the next year, as we move towards the aim of being established. I'd rather we just f****** won half a dozen games between now and May though. edit: went off on one there a bit... Edited January 24, 2014 by Ancipital 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 For me the overriding emotions are of frustration and missed opportunities. I thought when we came up that we had a really good chance of establishing ourselves compared to last time when everyone was spending more than they could afford which would eventually come back to haunt them -lest we forget that the league of 03/04 contained Rangers, Dundee, Hearts, Livi, and Dunfermline. You can certainly argue that we are unlucky that 11th finally gets the play off spot it was due the year we come up but I think that is outweighed by having a basket case Hearts in the league and no Rangers in their old guise- we only have to finish above one of 10 (compared to 9 last time) other non OF clubs who started on the same points as us. I look at teams like both Saints and both Highland clubs, not much bigger if at all in terms of support but 3 out of the 4 are well established clubs and County IMO are on their way to becoming one. I appreciate it doesn't happen overnight but we are still basically a lower league club- the myriad of off-field issues where we've missed a trick or ten have been covered plenty of times in other threads- but as for the on-field situation... my worry is that the ship for this season has already sailed since the Hibs game in December until Tuesday or maybe tomorrow. We've easily flung away 10+ points in that spell. Even if we do get a result tomorrow, we then have a series of games coming up against teams that are significantly better than us, and the confidence / mentality of the players has been shot already. Here's a funny stat as well- only once in the league this season have we improved our position from half time to the end of the game- St Mirren away (draw to win), think there must be half a dozen cases of the reverse- for example of the 8 draws we've had this season 2 have been 0-0 and in the other 6 we've conceded the final equaliser (3 times in the last 5 minutes onwards). Funnily enough the game after the St Mirren away game vs Aberdeen was when I feel teams properly sorted out our SFL1 tactics and we've struggled since. I can't see us finishing anywhere but 11th unless we go on a run after the split and I feel we'll be a few points adrift there. Even then, my gut feeling is I'd like to see Archie in charge but much like last year, if the squad isn't in the top division the following season I can see it being picked apart. I know guys are under contract but we don't know what clauses are built in or how happy they would be to remain if token offers came in. If we do go down then I will wonder if we should have changed it. I think Archie has done well in the transfer market, Baird & Kerr have been terrible signings and Mukendi was a risk-free gamble that didn't work, but no-one signs players that work out all the time, not even Ferguson or Mourinho, and I think his ratio of good / bad is more than acceptable. Considering we're so tinpot as to not even have a scout he's done well from limited contacts. Main issues I have with Archie are the inflexibility of the tactics, inability to hold leads and - though touch wood this has improved in recent weeks- defend set pieces. Don't have a problem with not shouting loud or ranting on the touchline (think Bunnet, think GC). We've been unlucky with Ozzy's injury but what if he'd got a deal down south in the first place, would we have been landed with Kerr or the "vanilla midgets" playing the holding roles(as someone -not I- brilliantly christened the rest of our midfield on P & B?) I don't want Archie out, but I have strong and legitimate concerns. Even if we can scrape through the playoffs though that gives us something to build on for the next year, as we move towards the aim of being established. I'd rather we just f****** won half a dozen games between now and May though. Great post. Excellent analysis and a realistic perspective which is based on our results rather our budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 I see this point a few times regarding Archie. I don't get why he has to shout. The players are all adults. I see him talking to players on the touchline every game. Does he not speak clearly enough to get his point across? As sure as night follows day, when confidence is low & you're trying to protect a lead then it's only natural that a team falls deeper & deeper as time running out. But when that's happening as early as 50 minutes as it seemed to do vs Ross Co & Killie you do begin to wonder what's said. The young team & lack of on field leaders been remarked a few times also so that makes guidance from the touch line all the more vital. I'm not advocating he shouts but at least look as though he's encouraging the team to pish up. As an aside, whatever's been said at HT vs Hearts, Ross Co & Killie we've come out & stopped playing football. If the manager or coaching staff unhappy that instructions not being followed then why not change things instead of what seems the predictable subs in the same formation. Like I said, I'm desperate for the guy to succeed but when he seems to be making the same mistakes it worries me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 I just don't see that he'd give a half time team talk that consisted of asking the team to retreat into their own box and stop trying to play football. The sub thing does frustrate me from time to time. I think Elliot in particular has had too many chances to come on and make an impact....then failed to do so. I'd rather see Baird given the same chance in that case, or AN Other. Another point I've seen a few times is that we're lucky this season that a full strength Rangers aren't in the top flight. Couldn't disagree more. You could rely on Rangers handing out routine pumpings to the teams round about you, whereas this season, teams are taking points off each other all over the place (outside of the obvious). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 I just don't see that he'd give a half time team talk that consisted of asking the team to retreat into their own box and stop trying to play football. I'm 100% sure he doesn't so why does it keep happening? Not getting message across at HT or instructions not being followed? Whichever reason it is then surely he should be using the subs better (& quicker) than what he does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'm 100% sure he doesn't so why does it keep happening? Not getting message across at HT or instructions not being followed? Whichever reason it is then surely he should be using the subs better (& quicker) than what he does? I would say it's most likely instructions not being followed, and it is a result of the team's inexperience at this level and in this position. The majority of the boys in our squad got their main experience in a winning environment of last season and very rarely had to battle to a scrappy win. They just don't know how to do it yet, and the belief that they can dominate a game from start to finish seems to have evaporated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Not sure what the connection is Football happens to be about results Perspective ..... We have gone steadily down the league..... Fact Jackie was given time thats why it is relevant, also when Archie took over we were 14th in Scotland, we are now 11th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Jackie was given time thats why it is relevant, also when Archie took over we were 14th in Scotland, we are now 11th I'm afraid the situation is not comparable It depends when you start things from.... This season we were 4th now were 11th Archie will get his time let's see what he does with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'm afraid the situation is not comparable It depends when you start things from.... This season we were 4th now were 11th Archie will get his time let's see what he does with it Why isn't it comparable? And if not, then why are you comparing over this season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Peebles Tackle Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Bottom line... If yer maw had baws she'd be yer da. All about 'ifs' & 'maybes' - one thing for sure - I'll be there tomorrow hoping for a win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) I'm afraid the situation is not comparable It depends when you start things from.... This season we were 4th now were 11th Archie will get his time let's see what he does with it You tell us you want Archie sacked, then you say you never said that, when from your posts it was pointed out it that you did, then you say he needs help, then you say that you are not posting again because of the abuse you were getting, then the next bad result you are back and by the looks of it you are usually the first to start a game thread or an Archie out thread after a poor result Why dont you do yourself and the rest of us a favour and support the club. If you are that unhappy and want to see your club win every week, but play shite football, there is a new club over on the South Side that will welcome you with open arms!!! Edited January 25, 2014 by Lindau 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 You tell us you want Archie sacked, then you say you never said that, when from your posts it was pointed out it that you did, then you say he needs help, then you say that you are not posting again because of the abuse you were getting, then the next bad result you are back and by the looks of it you are usually the first to start a game thread or an Archie out thread after a poor result Why dont you do yourself and the rest of us a favour and support the club. If you are that unhappy and want to see your club win every week, but play shite football, there is a new club over on the South Side that will welcome you with open arms!!! Listen mate I do support the club both in going to the games and financially....and have done so for over 45 years Funnily enough I am not happy at dropping down the league to the play off spot , not winning at home AND dropping the good passing game we started out with..... Voicing that opinion is what these forums are for and because you question the manager people like you basically say I should go and support the blue filth.... Unbelievable nazi fascist style behaviour Stop being a self righteous d*** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Stop being a self righteous d*** Dear God, we are at the name calling now. Wont stoop to that level....for the moment, I will just head off to Paisley and give the manager and the team my backing no matter the outcome. Thats what supporting your club means....following your club through the good times and bad times and if you have followed the club for 45 years,you will know fine well that this is one of the better times to be following the club despite recent results!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Listen mate I do support the club both in going to the games and financially....and have done so for over 45 years Funnily enough I am not happy at dropping down the league to the play off spot , not winning at home AND dropping the good passing game we started out with..... Voicing that opinion is what these forums are for and because you question the manager people like you basically say I should go and support the blue filth.... Unbelievable nazi fascist style behaviour Stop being a self righteous d*** I have been following Thistle roughly the same period as you (44 years in my case) and this is the best footballing side I have seen at Firhill, excepting League Cup side, and it is close. I was never going to be an easy ride this season, and I believe that most Jags fans expected a few horror shows. The fact that we have such a young side who play great football and cost almost zero is a magnificent achievement. Archie took over from McNamara and improved what Jackie had created. He took us undefeated to the title in fine fashion. This season,he and the players have made mistakes and are learning. Archie has said himself that we are now into January and we should be learning quicker. On the point you made that we were 4th and have slipped to 11th. Yes we have, but 4th in the first few weeks of the season cannot be compared in such a space of time, particularly as we gathered hay while teams didn't know us and were surprised at the quality of football we played. We have had some dreadful luck and some terrible refereeing decisions which have been pivotal in certain games, i.e,. Goodwin at Firhill. Archie has seen his midfield ripped apart, with injuries and a lack of discipline. The chopping and changing lately hasn't been good for the team, but in most instances he has had to do it. In signing players he has had more hits than misses, i.e Osbourne, Taylor, Erskine, Start backing this team as it plays. Yes, we are ALL frustrated at the way its going, but it does no-one any favours by constantly running down the manager or players. You are entitled to your opinion, but when given an opinion back, you dismiss it as nonsense. After over 45 years you should know Partick Thistle better than this. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 well said GRE, thats the definition of perspective, as is posts by likes of norges, tom hosies and other sage posters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 I have been following Thistle roughly the same period as you (44 years in my case) and this is the best footballing side I have seen at Firhill, excepting League Cup side, and it is close. I was never going to be an easy ride this season, and I believe that most Jags fans expected a few horror shows. The fact that we have such a young side who play great football and cost almost zero is a magnificent achievement. Archie took over from McNamara and improved what Jackie had created. He took us undefeated to the title in fine fashion. This season,he and the players have made mistakes and are learning. Archie has said himself that we are now into January and we should be learning quicker. On the point you made that we were 4th and have slipped to 11th. Yes we have, but 4th in the first few weeks of the season cannot be compared in such a space of time, particularly as we gathered hay while teams didn't know us and were surprised at the quality of football we played. We have had some dreadful luck and some terrible refereeing decisions which have been pivotal in certain games, i.e,. Goodwin at Firhill. Archie has seen his midfield ripped apart, with injuries and a lack of discipline. The chopping and changing lately hasn't been good for the team, but in most instances he has had to do it. In signing players he has had more hits than misses, i.e Osbourne, Taylor, Erskine, Start backing this team as it plays. Yes, we are ALL frustrated at the way its going, but it does no-one any favours by constantly running down the manager or players. You are entitled to your opinion, but when given an opinion back, you dismiss it as nonsense. After over 45 years you should know Partick Thistle better than this. no that is not true i was objecting to be told to go and watch rangers if i could not be positive about the manger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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