January Window

[potty trained]

 

The problem I have is losing players to teams around us.

 

If I it's a team that can pay considerably more money then fair enough but in Scotland unless you're joking Celtic, Aberdeen or Sevco then that's not happening.

 

So, why then are we potentially losing players to our 'competitors'.

 

Do some think that the club's ambition of finishing 10th not to their liking?

 

 

if I wasn't sitting in my car waiting on a recovery vehicle after being involved in a minor incident id probably be losing my patience at the absurdity of these points, above!

 

I wish I lived in the cotton wool wrapped fluffy cloud world that some of our fans live in!

 

 

[The Cup]

Everyone wants to play at the top level, further their career, win medals & of course, be financially sound.

 

The problem I have is losing players to teams around us.

 

If I it's a team that can pay considerably more money then fair enough but in Scotland unless you're joking Celtic, Aberdeen or Sevco then that's not happening.

 

I'd also argue that these 3 clubs are the most likely to win trophies- Sevco if they get back to SPL & throw (more) money about.

 

So, why then are we potentially losing players to our 'competitors'.

 

Do some think that the club's ambition of finishing 10th not to their liking?

 

If these guys go down Siuth, fair enough. However if we're serious about building & establishing ourselves as a top 6 top flight team then we shouldn't be losing laters to rivals around us.

 

My opinion.

 

Dundee United have far more money than we do.

 

Even if they didn't it's not just about money. Dundee United have better players, better facilities, a bigger support, they're more likely to play in Europe, win trophies, they are a better stage for getting a move down south and possibly playing for Scotland.

[Lindau]

 

 

Everyone wants to play at the top level, further their career, win medals & of course, be financially sound.

 

The problem I have is losing players to teams around us.

 

If I it's a team that can pay considerably more money then fair enough but in Scotland unless you're joking Celtic, Aberdeen or Sevco then that's not happening.

 

I'd also argue that these 3 clubs are the most likely to win trophies- Sevco if they get back to SPL & throw (more) money about.

 

So, why then are we potentially losing players to our 'competitors'.

 

Do some think that the club's ambition of finishing 10th not to their liking?

 

If these guys go down Siuth, fair enough. However if we're serious about building & establishing ourselves as a top 6 top flight team then we shouldn't be losing laters to rivals around us.

 

My opinion.

 

Not quite sure what your point is. The ball is in the players court. If they don't want to sign a new contract there is nothing the club can do about it. Doesn't matter what club wants the player. Classic example of this over the last few years is Rory McAllister. Banging in goals left, right and centre at Brechin, rumours of moves to Aberdeen, Hibs, Dundee Und and several English Championship sides. What did he do....sign a two year contract at Peterhead!! Yeah he was training for a job for when he was finished with football, but he could have done that at any club. Point is the player decides where he is going when his contract is up....not the club!

[read'n'yell]

SOD is definitely replaceable, he can be excellent going forward but there is huge gaps defensively and at times I'd chose McMillan over him. His final ball isn't good enough. So while I'm not bashing him and I like his work rate and he's great for us, he's just not irreplaceable.

 

Higgy is a but of a different one because I doubt we'll ever get someone with his raw ability. But could we get someone more effective/ reliable? Possibly, but a big big ask. Remember it was Higgy alone that made us avoid the playoffs last year.

 

We have a really important run of games until the end of January, all winnable. I hope Archie gets someone in sooner rather than later. After the next 5/6 games we then have 6 games until the split against most of the top 6.

 

EDIT: I think we'll be fine this season, so I would like Archie to think further forward. Although what we need now and what we need in the summer are probably the same (left back, defensive mid, right wing and striker).

Edited January 12, 2015 by read'n'yell

[La Scimmia Rossa]

That's why it's important we get to 40 points as quickly as possible. That way the management team have the opportunity to plan ahead. I think it's inevitable that there will be chnage in the summer. Would think that most of the U20's will be moved on. Archie has said as much?

 

Who is out of contract in the summer? On that list, who is difficult to replace?

[Bleeding Gums Murphy]

 

 

Not quite sure what your point is. The ball is in the players court. If they don't want to sign a new contract there is nothing the club can do about it. Doesn't matter what club wants the player. Classic example of this over the last few years is Rory McAllister. Banging in goals left, right and centre at Brechin, rumours of moves to Aberdeen, Hibs, Dundee Und and several English Championship sides. What did he do....sign a two year contract at Peterhead!! Yeah he was training for a job for when he was finished with football, but he could have done that at any club. Point is the player decides where he is going when his contract is up....not the club!

 

My point is that we should no longer view ourselves as a smaller club than any other Scottish club.

 

If the player wants a move down South then that's different but we should now be able to show guys like O'Donnell & Hiiginbotham we have the money & resources (training ground & youth development for example) in place to push on.

 

Goodness knows we're apparently playing someone like Ecclestone a fair basic wage to get splinters on his backside!!

[The Cup]

Gary Teale hopes to sign 4 strikers Joann Arquin, Chinedu Vine, Ryan Jennings and Matty Hamilton.

[Dark Passenger]

The problem I have is losing players to teams around us.

 

Last time I looked the "teams around us" were Kilmarnock, Dundee, Motherwell, County and St. Mirren. When was the last time we 'lost' a player to them?

[Winter of '63]

Think the only flaw in this is our ability to bring in the hypothetical players that he has been monitoring. Clearing out (if that is what is required - I personally don't agree) is the easy part - getting the targets signed is something else.

 

Two words - Lyle Taylor.

Or a replacement for Aaron Taylor-Sinclair.

 

I can entirely understand that O'Donnell, Banzo or Higgy might be lured by the prospect of a move - more money and a chance to play for a club with genuine ambitions to win trophies. I think that they have the talent to merit the opportunity to better themselves.

 

I would not be optimistic about the possibility of recruiting players who are as good or as entertaining to watch. In my view it is quite unrealistic to expect Archie to do so.

[AndyMac]

Or a replacement for Aaron Taylor-Sinclair.

 

I can entirely understand that O'Donnell, Banzo or Higgy might be lured by the prospect of a move - more money and a chance to play for a club with genuine ambitions to win trophies. I think that they have the talent to merit the opportunity to better themselves.

 

I would not be optimistic about the possibility of recruiting players who are as good or as entertaining to watch. In my view it is quite unrealistic to expect Archie to do so.

 

Why?

[Bleeding Gums Murphy]

 

 

Last time I looked the "teams around us" were Kilmarnock, Dundee, Motherwell, County and St. Mirren. When was the last time we 'lost' a player to them?

 

So we should be happy at losing a player to another SPL team? Celtic & possibly Aberdeen excepted? I don't.

 

Are you saying that it's ok to lose a player to a team that's not around us?

 

ICT? Hamilton? St Johnstone?

[Armand2]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that it'll be "all change" in the summer; off the top of my head, we have Seaborne, Frans, Bannigan, Fraser, Stevenson and Doolan all signed up, all of whom I'd consider starters. Scully and Lindsay are also contracted for next year and should we decide to keep them on, I wouldn't imagine Gallacher, Christie, Craigen, McDaid and Balatoni will be hard to deal with. David Wilson and Chris Duggan are also out of contract but have been developing quite well so I would imagine offers will be made to both. Hypothetically speaking, that would give us a squad of 15 so looking for 9 if running with a normal squad of 24 - considerable number of new faces but only 5/6 starters which isn't greatly different to most years. Leaving aside the hypothetical re-signings, we definitely have a third of our potential squad signed for next year which is a decent base to work on.

 

Lawless has been in good form so far this season and I know of at least one rival Premiership team showing an interest last summer so he could have options. Higginbotham has been under par all season for me but we know what he's capable of and on his day, he's the best player at our disposal. He's got to either improve over the next six months or hope that potential suitors remember his excellent form in the second half of next season otherwise he'll be sucking his thumb come July if he thinks he can get a deal elsewhere. Osman is a bit of journeyman and with his family still in London, I wouldn't be surprised to see another Osbourne-esque situation develop; not sure that I'd be terribly fussed in that case as he impresses me hugely one week and leaves me a bit cold the next.

 

Will be nonplussed if O'Donnell departs. Can be a great attacking outlet but is still poor defensively. He is particularly fragile mentally - he's self critical to the point that it erodes his confidence but McNamara seemed to know how to get the best out of him so should the rumours be true that United are interested, I wouldn't be surprised. I think we'll have a far easier time replacing him that Sinclair and that is also ignoring the fact that, should all this furore blow over, we've got a ready-made replacement in McMillan provided he re-signs which is no guarantee either way, I suppose.

[Dark Passenger]

Ao we should be happy at losing a player to another SPL team? Celtic & possibly Aberdeen excepted? I don't.

 

Are you saying that it's ok to lose a player to a team that's not around us?

 

ICT? Hamilton? St Johnstone?

 

When was the last time we 'lost' a player to any of them?

[Garscube Road End]

Let's be brutal about Thistle! We are not a particularly big draw/attraction. Not the best payers, bigger clubs with more realistic ambitions of success, small fanbase and a shithole of a stadium. We will probably get a few years in the top division then slip back to our true level. Unless the leagues are enlarged!

[allyo]

That's the spirit!

 

(May well be true, but I don't really want to be brutal about Thistle. We're allowed to dream)

[Richard Nixon]

Let's be brutal about Thistle! We are not a particularly big draw/attraction. Not the best payers, bigger clubs with more realistic ambitions of success, small fanbase and a shithole of a stadium. We will probably get a few years in the top division then slip back to our true level. Unless the leagues are enlarged!

 

Hey, we got bigger crowds when we were doing well in the first, and our fans seemed far less prone to complain about everything ...

[Winter of '63]

Or a replacement for Aaron Taylor-Sinclair.

 

I can entirely understand that O'Donnell, Banzo or Higgy might be lured by the prospect of a move - more money and a chance to play for a club with genuine ambitions to win trophies. I think that they have the talent to merit the opportunity to better themselves.

 

I would not be optimistic about the possibility of recruiting players who are as good or as entertaining to watch. In my view it is quite unrealistic to expect Archie to do so.

Why?

 

 

Back in the day, we sold our best player every season - Bone, Forsyth, Glavin, Hansen, Mo Johnston, etc. We never replaced them with players who were anywhere near as good. More recently, Harkins, Cairney & Erkine moved on to bigger clubs - again, their replacements were not as good to watch.

 

ATS & Lyle Taylor also went to bigger clubs - their replacements are Carroll & Ecclestone...that speaks for itself.

 

Archie has actually done better in the transfer market than I expected but the economic reality is that players with special talent will end up with wealthier clubs. At best, we might get lucky with a one-off like Higgy or bring through a young player with potential but we are more likely to be left with journeymen.

 

The suggestion earlier in this thread that losing our top players is not a concern as Archie would be able to slot in equally good if not better players who he has been tracking is not something I agree with - if Archie has that magical ability he would too will be moving to a bigger club.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Winter of '63

[Bleeding Gums Murphy]

 

 

When was the last time we 'lost' a player to any of them?

 

Correct. So is it then acceptable to lose them to DU?

[Ancipital]

Depends on your definition of acceptable. Since I was born United have won the league, got to a European final, won the Scottish cup 3 times and finished in the top few in the league more often than not. We've done all of that precisely no times.

 

In that time their average attendance has probably been at least double ours, and even if you say that some of that quoted above was 25+ years ago, in the last 12 months they've cleared their debt and sold 2 young players for a sum total of about £6m. I'm guessing they have a few more shekels to offer players than we do.

 

They're clearly a bigger club than us by most measures and whilst I don't want to lose O'Donnell to them, or indeed anyone, I don't think it's unacceptable to lose players to bigger clubs- it's the way football has always worked, more so in the post Bosman era.

[Bleeding Gums Murphy]

Depends on your definition of acceptable. Since I was born United have won the league, got to a European final, won the Scottish cup 3 times and finished in the top few in the league more often than not. We've done all of that precisely no times.

 

In that time their average attendance has probably been at least double ours, and even if you say that some of that quoted above was 25+ years ago, in the last 12 months they've cleared their debt and sold 2 young players for a sum total of about £6m. I'm guessing they have a few more shekels to offer players than we do.

 

They're clearly a bigger club than us by most measures and whilst I don't want to lose O'Donnell to them, or indeed anyone, I don't think it's unacceptable to lose players to bigger clubs- it's the way football has always worked, more so in the post Bosman era.

 

Don't disagree with much you wrote but would say our bank debt negligible. I'd also argue the league win & Euro final in a bygone era that we'll be lucky to see again. All of them a good 10 years before the national team last qualified for a major tournament so that probably says it all.

 

They might have a good cup run but let's face it, a lot of that (cup runs) down to luck off the draw & luck on the day. One off games we keep being told by the media. They beat a first division team -Ross Co- last time they won it 5 years ago.

 

Average attendances would bring Hearts & Hibs from Div 1 as well as Motherwell, Dundee & a good few others who it's been said we haven't lost a player to.

 

Their money & selling young players I agree. That's why I said that I can see an O'Donnell moving on for a fee if he joined them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AndyMac]

Hey, we got bigger crowds when we were doing well in the first, and our fans seemed far less prone to complain about everything ...

 

Yes indeed, and others were less inclined to complain about our complaining fans

[allyo]

 

More recently, Harkins, Cairney & Erkine moved on to bigger clubs - again, their replacements were not as good to watch.

 

 

I get the wider point, but weren't these three replaced with Erskine, Welsh and Higginbotham? I reckon we did okay

[AndyMac]

Back in the day, we sold our best player every season - Bone, Forsyth, Glavin, Hansen, Mo Johnston, etc. We never replaced them with players who were anywhere near as good. More recently, Harkins, Cairney & Erkine moved on to bigger clubs - again, their replacements were not as good to watch.

 

ATS & Lyle Taylor also went to bigger clubs - their replacements are Carroll & Ecclestone...that speaks for itself.

 

Archie has actually done better in the transfer market than I expected but the economic reality is that players with special talent will end up with wealthier clubs. At best, we might get lucky with a one-off like Higgy or bring through a young player with potential but we are more likely to be left with journeymen.

 

The suggestion earlier in this thread that losing our top players is not a concern as Archie would be able to slot in equally good if not better players who he has been tracking is not something I agree with - if Archie has that magical ability he would too will be moving to a bigger club.

 

You have made fair points 'Winter of '63'.

 

Let's put it this way;

 

Scottish clubs will no longer pay a tranfer fee, your only real chance of selling players on is to England.

 

Archie tends bring in assorted players, who usually have a bit of bagage, who are out to prove a point and get their careers back on track. Most of these players have been with bigger clubs and have earned more cash than we pay, so they will only sign short deals (with one eye on the exit door). Because of this, we would be very fortunate to tie any of these players down long enough, then sell them on.

 

If we accept the arguement that they are "bigger" clubs than us in Scotland, that we can not compete with, then it stands to reason that there are also smaller clubs than ours? These are the clubs that we should logically be signing the bulk of our players from. We would have a better chance to develop and sell on these players over a longer term.

 

I find it hard to believe that we cannot find more than enough talent on our own door step.

[Winter of '63]

I get the wider point, but weren't these three replaced with Erskine, Welsh and Higginbotham? I reckon we did okay

That's arguable but Harkins left in 2009 and Erskine wasn't really as influential as Gary had been until 2012, Welsh sadly hasn't been fit and we had both Higgy and Erskine last season.

 

To pick up on AndyMac's point, the club was woeful in finding talent on our own doorstep for about 30 years and I'm delighted there are signs that is being addressed.

[allyo]

 

That's arguable but Harkins left in 2009 and Erskine wasn't really as influential as Gary had been until 2012, Welsh sadly hasn't been fit and we had both Higgy and Erskine last season.

 

 

Hmm. Okay, I take your point on Erskine vs Harkins. But Welsh was an effective replacement for Cairney. The fact that we lost him over a year later doesn't really change this. Cairney hasn't been very fit or effective in that time either. And Higginbotham was an effective and exciting replacement for Erskine (albeit a different type of player) and I don't see that Erskine's return made this any less true.

 

But I'm being picky. Monday night boredom.