Bleeding Gums Murphy Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 There is no guarantee that any of the three out-of-work managers you mention would do Thistle any good. They are out of work for a reason. If we finish above 10th it will be undeniable progress compared to last season. I'd also like to see good attacking football and solid defending every week. Virtually no team can produce it week in week out. There's too strong a sense of deja vu in the way we drop points, I agree, but those events are often as much the fault of individual players as the management. You're correct that there's no guarantee but they're out of work for different reasons & have all managed at a higher level. Lomas very unlucky at Millwall & successive managers have proven that also. McCall jumped before he was pushed at Motherwell. Mowbray has had mixed success in the English Premiership & although his time at Celtic was pretty poor, at Hibs they still sing his praises. So 9th is good? Bearing in mind that we were a result away from 7th last season & with that extra £1m prize money we may have seen ST monies remain the same instead of an increase.. Alternatively it may have been used to attract a striker to the club. I agree no team can produce it week in week out but progressively we're getting worse on that sense. The 'football' we play is all in front of the opposition, I read someone commenting on the Motherwell game about one of our players charging through the middle & the Motherwell defence parting to cover the full backs. Lo & behold what did we do.... Play the ball wide into the congested area. Never mind déjà vu in way we drop points, there's déjà vu about the way we play & other teams have sussed us. As for as much the result of individual players as the management for the dropped points. The squad has changed considerably since we first got promoted yet the same thing occurs. Surely the manager's game management has to be questioned now? Unused subs or predictable subs also. I get that no one here who is pro-Archibald is going to change their opinion because of what I or others may say but I often think that Archibald is exempt from criticism because he's a Jags 'legend'. Think of the.criticism McNamara used to get when we were chasing a 2nd or 3rd goal away from home in the last minute of games only to drop points late on. It seems to me that many on here are content to blame that scenario now on individual players & errors than look at the management. I'd also add that McNamara was known as a manager that couldn't win away from home in the 1st division, he's learned as he's gone along at DU. Said it before, all I see is the same rigid system, the same last minute mistakes & the same predictable subs. I've also said that I don't think we'll go down but I don't think we're progressing. A positive GD or 'x' amount of points more tan this time last season isn't a measure of progress. We were 90mins away from 7th last season so please someone tell me that we don't have a better squad this season & that top 6 shouldn't be a realistic target to measure 'progress'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) We were 90mins away from 7th last season so please someone tell me that we don't have a better squad this season & that top 6 shouldn't be a realistic target to measure 'progress'? Is that the only outcome that will satisfy you that progress has been made: a top 6 finish? And then what? Europe the following season, or we'll be "going backwards" if we don't? Calls to sack the manager again? I'd have thought that the size of the playing budget that McNamara now has to play with might be largely responsible for his ability to finally win matches away from home. Of course that will not happen this weekend..... Edited January 2, 2015 by Jaggernaut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Gums Murphy Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Is that the only outcome that will satisfy you that progress has been made: a top 6 finish? And then what? Europe the following season, or we'll be "going backwards" if we don't? Calls to sack the manager again? I'd have thought that the size of the playing budget that McNamara now has to play with might be largely responsible for his ability to finally win matches away from home. Of course that will not happen this weekend..... Absolutely not. Progress should be measured in terms of the other things I've mentioned. No continual panic in last few minutes of games when only a goal to the good. Being flexible with our system depending on who we're playing against or what is going on in the game. Not the scenario where there's 65minutes gone so that me as take off our striker or we need someone to hold the ball up top rather than run in behind so we'll play Stevenson rather than Doolan. Like I said it's all predictable. As for McNamara at DU... Yes he has a larger playing budget but then by using that argument so did Archibald this season so he should do better than last? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Gekantawa Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 So 9th is good? Yes I get that no one here who is pro-Archibald is going to change their opinion because of what I or others may say but I often think that Archibald is exempt from criticism because he's a Jags 'legend'. King of Spain is a Jags legend. No one would defend his management. Personally, I'm unsentimental when assessing the manager Think of the.criticism McNamara used to get when we were chasing a 2nd or 3rd goal away from home in the last minute of games only to drop points late on. I don't remember this, nor do I remember us dropping too many points at the end of games under McNamara A positive GD or 'x' amount of points more tan this time last season isn't a measure of progress. Yes, it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Gekantawa Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 As for McNamara at DU... Yes he has a larger playing budget but then by using that argument so did Archibald this season so he should do better than last? I agree, good job Archie is doing better this season than last, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Gums Murphy Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 I agree, good job Archie is doing better this season than last, then. So 90 minutes away from 7th last year & you'll accept 9th with a positive GD. Ok, fair enough. Aim low right enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewarty Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) We were 90mins away from 7th last season so please someone tell me that we don't have a better squad this season & that top 6 shouldn't be a realistic target to measure 'progress'? I sometimes wonder whether we should *expect* progress at all, at least in terms of improved league position. We *want* it, obviously, but we need to be realistic. Last season we had the lowest average attendance in the league. This season we will likely have the second lowest. Now, I know such figures are an imperfect indicator of a club's financial clout, but in a league where oligarch owners are in short supply attendance statistics do give us an idea of where we stand in terms of our relative wage bill, which is the most reliable indicator of a club's final league position. Obviously people will point to Hamilton, who are currently punching above their financial weight, but we all know this is a temporary aberration and that we will see 'regression to the mean'. Should Hamilton supporters *expect* to consolidate and improve on their top four position? Obviously not. The way that I look at it is this: I think that it is reasonable to expect a higher league position *this season* largely because we have improved the squad. But here's the thing: Archie is the one who has unearthed players such as Seabourne and Frans, as well as holding on to the likes of Fraser and Higgy. So, somewhat ironically, he's the cause of both my increased expectations (good) and frustrations (bad) in the short-term, but I'm also realistic about our long-term position. Like it or not we are a bottom of the Premiership / top of the Championship club. In a way, though, this is an exciting place to be. Edited January 2, 2015 by Stewarty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derby Jag Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Last season we had the lowest average attendance in the league. This season we will likely have the second lowest. Tbf we had the seventh highest attendance last season. Granted we had some very large away supports at games that have been absent this year but there has been a noticeable and disappointing decrease in the home support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewarty Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Tbf we had the seventh highest attendance last season. Granted we had some very large away supports at games that have been absent this year but there has been a noticeable and disappointing decrease in the home support. Yes, that'll teach me not to read figures on a mobile phone. The figures for this season appear to be correct though, so the point retains validity. https://mobile.twitter.com/HeartsRant/status/541689085589721088/photo/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewarty Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Tbf we had the seventh highest attendance last season. Granted we had some very large away supports at games that have been absent this year but there has been a noticeable and disappointing decrease in the home support. Yes, that'll teach me not to read figures on a mobile phone. The figures for this season appear to be correct though, so the point retains validity. https://mobile.twitter.com/HeartsRant/status/541689085589721088/photo/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stevenson Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Relative to last season, we have scored 8 more goals, conceded 11 fewer, accrued 5 more points, and gone further in both Cups (though I agree that is affected by the luck of the draw). There are still shortcomings, but that is an improvement. Undeniable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) BGM. Ross County finished in 7th, got an extra £1m in prize money, have a longer established youth structure, a sugar daddy who supports them financially yet find themselves in a far worse position than us, infact took the last resort and sacked their manager, yet have not progressed since. Are we over achieving in comparison to them? St mirren finished above us, won more prize money, have a long established well respected youth structure that's seen more than 10 players progress to the first team, have zero debt, a low cost stadium, larger wage budget. And took the last resort of stacking their manager. They also have years of experience building a premiership back room infrastructure. Are we over achieving in comparison to them? How much more money did Motherwell gain lady season? If we are not excelling in comparison to them, then I don't know what we are doing! Killie finished above us, won more prize money have a generation of experience in the premier division yet we are comparible to them so far. Are we over achieving when compared to them? Edited January 2, 2015 by potty trained Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stevenson Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Had to cut off when alighting from the train..... Unfortunately we are not as nice to watch as we often were last season and are missing the creativity that Higgy and Erskine offered in the second half of last season. We will need that going forward. It seems to me that we are not moving the ball forward fast enough nor running at the opposition enough. Hopefully Higgy will hit form and Archie can source someone to add that bit of extra threat for the second half of this season. We struggle to make an impact against teams that sit in (St J and Killie at home spring to mind). A tiny bit extra and we would be in that top six zone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Gums Murphy Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 BGM. Ross County finished in 7th, got an extra £1m in prize money, have a longer established youth structure, a sugar daddy who supports them financially yet find themselves in a far worse position than us, infact took the last resort and sacked their manager, yet have not progressed since. Are we over achieving in comparison to them? St mirren finished above us, won more prize money, have a long established well respected youth structure that's seen more than 10 players progress to the first team, have zero debt, a low cost stadium, larger wage budget. And took the last resort of stacking their manager. They also have years of experience building a premiership back room infrastructure. Are we over achieving in comparison to them? How much more money did Motherwell gain lady season? If we are not excelling in comparison to them, then I don't know what we are doing! Killie finished above us, won more prize money have a generation of experience in the premier division yet we are comparible to them so far. Are we over achieving when compared to them? More concerned about us than anyone else but... Like you say about Ross Co- A sugar daddy who coated over their manager's failures by bringing in a whole new team every transfer window. Was a matter of time before Adams was found out. Though that extra £1m will go along way to letting McIntyre bring in a few in Jan. Who knows where it may lead. If they're within touching distance at the split then it really is game on. Motherwell & St Mirren similar in sense of both have BoDs, who despite little or no debt, want out & are refusing to put anymore money into the team. It has had a detrimental effect on field on these 2 clubs but then Killie are the same. I'd argue that they've a worse squad than last season whereas our's better. Yet league table suggests differently. Youth systems a bit of a fallacy in this country. Other than Dingwall at Ross, who else has broke through their ranks in SPL? We had an opportunity to blood a couple of our youngsters this season in Keenan & Duggan but both loaned out in favour of us bringing in a couple of more expensive players. But in seeing you mention these teams in comparison to our position, what about Hamilton? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cup Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 We are underachieving in terms of ourselves. 2 pathetic capitulations in the games against St Mirren and Hamilton, and 2 totally avoidable late goals for Hamilton and Dundee have made us a fair number points worse of than we should be. It's the exactly same problem that we faced last season. The same problem of the management not being able to change the team to close out games. It would be scandalous if we were brought into a relegation fight when we should be about 5 - 7 points better off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancipital Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Ross County did not get an extra million quid prize money in relation to us. £150k, a chunk of which they'll have tossed on binning Adams, his dad, and some of his signings over the summer. That said I'd still expect uncle Roy to throw some more money at them in the next month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 [quote name='Bleeding Gums Murphy' timestamp='1420202004' post='210525 But in seeing you mention these teams in comparison to our position, what about Hamilton? ] Had an unexpectedly good start - for how long will it continue ? Dundee,also had a good start, but seem to be in free fall. I know,I know, we only managed to draw with them, but thankfully the league isn't decided on 1 game. It is time to admit that we are in a much better position than at this time last year, and really should be giving the manager some credit for that. The football isn't as good, but results are better. Maybe that's what needs to be done in the premiership to survive ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cup Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Ross County did not get an extra million quid prize money in relation to us. £150k, a chunk of which they'll have tossed on binning Adams, his dad, and some of his signings over the summer. That said I'd still expect uncle Roy to throw some more money at them in the next month. They got extra money because of a last minute goal against us. Where have I heard that before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 More concerned about us than anyone else but... Like you say about Ross Co- A sugar daddy who coated over their manager's failures by bringing in a whole new team every transfer window. Was a matter of time before Adams was found out. Though that extra £1m will go along way to letting McIntyre bring in a few in Jan. Who knows where it may lead. If they're within touching distance at the split then it really is game on. Motherwell & St Mirren similar in sense of both have BoDs, who despite little or no debt, want out & are refusing to put anymore money into the team. It has had a detrimental effect on field on these 2 clubs but then Killie are the same. I'd argue that they've a worse squad than last season whereas our's better. Yet league table suggests differently. Youth systems a bit of a fallacy in this country. Other than Dingwall at Ross, who else has broke through their ranks in SPL? We had an opportunity to blood a couple of our youngsters this season in Keenan & Duggan but both loaned out in favour of us bringing in a couple of more expensive players. But in seeing you mention these teams in comparison to our position, what about Hamilton? So we are over achieving in comparison to these teams? In regards to Hamilton, I have nothing but admiration for them, and a lot of sympathy in that they cannot attract a bigger support. They are playing great football with a fantastic young manager. If they finish the season in the top 6, then they deserve it. So far they have been a revelation and have made it a better and tougher division than if Hibs were in it. Should what they are doing be used as a stick to beat thistle? In some ways yes, in some ways no, you just accept that that is life. That is football, some teams are better than others. If we both stay up, will they be as good next year, who knows, will we be better, I hope so. What I have learned in nearly 30 years of watching us is to accept what we have, stay positive and support. It makes for a much happier life away from those 90 minutes on a Saturday. There are aspects of the game that we as supporters do not and never will understand. We do not have the experience to allow us to do that, so whilst fans will moan about a player constantly being rubbish, they don't know why he is being picked, the specific job the manager asks him to do. We just think we know what he should be doing, and if he isn't doing what we want him to do, then he must be shite? But the manager picks him every week, plays him in the same position, so he must be doing exactly as the manager asks him? Otherwise he wouldn't play him. So we as fans need to accept that the manager plays a certain formation, plays certain players, because he thinks they are the best he has in those positions, who will do exactly as he asks them to. Take for example Elliott or Lawless on the right. The manager picks Elliott the majority of the time, why? Because he does exactly as he's asked. He offers an outlet for a high ball, he covers SOD, he is able to beat a man and come inside to utilise the space Stevenson creates when he goes wide. In Archie's eyes Elliott is better at that than Lawless. Some folk say, yeah but how can Elliott play in the premier league when he hardly played in the first? Well, the defensive side wasn't required in the first, we could attack at will, we didn't always need to be cautious, SOD wasn't as wide open to attacks in the first. So there was no need to play Elliott as much. We could be more attacking. So lawless saw more game time. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Relative to last season, we have scored 8 more goals, conceded 11 fewer, accrued 5 more points, and gone further in both Cups (though I agree that is affected by the luck of the draw). There are still shortcomings, but that is an improvement. Undeniable. Had to cut off when alighting from the train..... Unfortunately we are not as nice to watch as we often were last season and are missing the creativity that Higgy and Erskine offered in the second half of last season. We will need that going forward. It seems to me that we are not moving the ball forward fast enough nor running at the opposition enough. Hopefully Higgy will hit form and Archie can source someone to add that bit of extra threat for the second half of this season. We struggle to make an impact against teams that sit in (St J and Killie at home spring to mind). A tiny bit extra and we would be in that top six zone. ^^^^^ two eminently sensible posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Gums Murphy Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 1) So we are over achieving in comparison to these teams? 2) Should what they are doing be used as a stick to beat thistle? In some ways yes, in some ways no, you just accept that that is life. That is football, some teams are better than others. 3) If we both stay up, will they be as good next year, who knows, will we be better, I hope so. 4) There are aspects of the game that we as supporters do not and never will understand... 1) I'd argue Motherwell have way over achieved last cpl seasons but in terms of the other teams mentioned then no. We're ahead of St Mirren & Ross Co which is where you'd hope to be but the fact that Killie & Hamilton are ahead of us, you could say we're underachieving. 2) I accept that which contradicts point 1) to a large extent. I've stated my reasons that I'm not convinced about Archibald stem from the continual conceding of goals in last cpl minutes of games & that whether we're winning, losing or drawing you can almost predict subs & times. 3) Why next year & not this? Bearing in mind next year will see *potentially* 2 teams with bigger playing budgets than us coming from Championship. 4) Agreed. However if someone like Elliot deemed not good enough for Championship then surely we should be looking for Elliot 'upgrade'? Also agree re tactics but as I said win, lose or draw through the game it's almost always the same pattern with the subs- barring injuries. You can always predict around 65 minutes the guy up front will be subbed. Surely you get this & the subsequent frustrations. The game's evolved in all the time I've watched it & we are almost 'yo-yo' club but like yourself after 40+ years of watching it, remembering the joy of 71 & spending god knows how much money I'd just like to see us kick on. The game no longer a hobby to follow & when you look outside of Celtic & Aberdeen I can't see any team that we shouldn't have beaten this season. Therefore when I see folk saying top 6 too soon or continually looking at results below us it frustrates the hell out of me. As I said, my opinion, the reason we're not up that end of the league is poor game management & that's from the top down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 I sometimes wonder whether we should *expect* progress at all, at least in terms of improved league position. We *want* it, obviously, but we need to be realistic. Last season we had the lowest average attendance in the league. This season we will likely have the second lowest. Now, I know such figures are an imperfect indicator of a club's financial clout, but in a league where oligarch owners are in short supply attendance statistics do give us an idea of where we stand in terms of our relative wage bill, which is the most reliable indicator of a club's final league position. Obviously people will point to Hamilton, who are currently punching above their financial weight, but we all know this is a temporary aberration and that we will see 'regression to the mean'. Should Hamilton supporters *expect* to consolidate and improve on their top four position? Obviously not. The way that I look at it is this: I think that it is reasonable to expect a higher league position *this season* largely because we have improved the squad. But here's the thing: Archie is the one who has unearthed players such as Seabourne and Frans, as well as holding on to the likes of Fraser and Higgy. So, somewhat ironically, he's the cause of both my increased expectations (good) and frustrations (bad) in the short-term, but I'm also realistic about our long-term position. Like it or not we are a bottom of the Premiership / top of the Championship club. In a way, though, this is an exciting place to be. Our average attendance last year was about 5000 which was the the 7th best in the SPFL, so by some people's reckoning we should end up 7th in the league , don't think it quite works that way . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 4) Agreed. However if someone like Elliot deemed not good enough for Championship then surely we should be looking for Elliot 'upgrade'? Who deemed him not good enough for the first division? I explained a reason why I think he is getting more game time in the top flight compared to the first division. His game and all round ability suits us at this time. It didn't suit us so much in the first when we had licence to attack at will and could easily out score the opposition. Regarding upgrades, I'd imagine Archie is always looking to upgrade every position. It might not be possible in this window, the funds might not be available until the summer. But it would be foolish to think that he isn't always looking to improve every position in the team. Every player has a shelf life, some might progress, some might age, some might not fulfil potential but no player is guaranteed a life time at firhill. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewarty Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Our average attendance last year was about 5000 which was the the 7th best in the SPFL, so by some people's reckoning we should end up 7th in the league , don't think it quite works that way . Yeah, I corrected that above. I also stress that this is an imperfect indicator of financial clout, but in the long-term a club's wage bill correlates best with it's league position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Yeah, I corrected that above. I also stress that this is an imperfect indicator of financial clout, but in the long-term a club's wage bill correlates best with it's league position. I think tho' that our downturn in attendances this season will impact on Archie's budget. Losing Hearts and Hibs with just the one visit from Celtic will have been factored in, but there's no getting away from a series of poor turnouts at Firhill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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