Fantasy Firhill Management Vacancy

[Willjag]

After the discussions about Thistle managers from the last 45 years or so on the Archie thread, I wondered how this scenario would go....

 

From the Archie thread, it would seem that most are in agreement that the top 4 managers over the past 45 years have been in order of time :-

 

1. Davie McParland

2. Bertie Auld

3. John Lambie

4. Alan Archibald

 

All have won divisional titles when in charge of Thistle and this qualifies them for this fantasy job as timeless Team Manager of Partick Thistle.

 

So, as Chairman of the Club you have the choice of one of these four Managerial legends from their heyday as Partick Thistle Boss. Who would you choose and why?

[Jaggernaut]

That is tough, and how many people choose will reflect when they started going to see Thistle.

 

For me it's McParland: took over after we got relegated, had the team of mostly youngsters playing some fantastic football as we swept to immediate promotion, then of course there is the League Cup Final day, which in my opinion should be a national holiday!

 

Archie took rat-face's team which were seemingly incapable of winning away from home, tightened them up and got them playing with flair and determination to clinch promotion, kept us in the top flight last season and this season, with improvement after improvement. He looks on course to do even better, if the Board will give him support.

 

Lambie has especially the two consecutive promotions to his great credit, and is legendary for his uniqueness! Of course there would have been financial constraints all the time, but he did manage to put together some good, hard-to-beat teams.

 

Auld kept us in the top flight and performing well for several seasons, even when we had to resort to a mixture of part-time and full-time players. He certainly had an eye for a good player, and I (vaguely) remember some great games and victories under his management.

[Lindau]

To me all have been fantastic managers, but it's gotta be Davie McParland. Gave me my greatest day ever as a jags supporter. As an underage drinker, I was in the Ingram Bar with 3 of my Sellik mates and two of my jags mates (sadly both of whom have passed away) from 11.00-14.00 so to say we were merry when we left to get the train over, was an understatement...lol That day will never be surpassed. I was on the Whiteinch Squire Street bus at that time and we were soon brought back to Earth the following Saturday at Pittodrie, but honestly no one gave a toss...lol. Lambie was great, but his neglect of all things youth, marks him down a bit, however the back to back Championships only come second to 1971. The criticism of Bertie always baffles me. Part time side, fighting way above its weight for many seasons, regularly beating Rangers then, Sevco now and as for the defensive allegations, just have a look at the attack minded players and strikers we had during that period. Archie cannot be judged with any of these three until he leaves, but he is well on his way to becoming linked up with the three other managerial legends. The job he has done since he came in has been fantastic, yet sadly there are a few that don't appreciate all he has done. The next few years will tell us where he stands alongside the other three

Edited May 5, 2015 by Lindau

[lady-isobel-barnett]

On assumption that the four had to operate in today's football environment I'd go for Archie. Kinda like Clough, Shankly and possibly Stein wouldn't be nearly as successful today. Lambie worked mostly post Bosman but was at his best when we had our backs to the wall.

 

If you were to ignore freedom of contract and Bosman the there's a strong case for Wee Bertie as we often punched above our weight for lengthy periods when he was boss. But punching above our weight is exactly what we're doing just now and I see no reason why we won't continue to do so for a while.

Edited May 5, 2015 by lady-isobel-barnett

[The Jukebox Rebel]

I groaned when I seen the title of this thread... then breathed a sigh of relief and smiled when I read the content!

 

You’ve hit the nail on the head here Will, without doubt our 4 best managers of the last 45 years, and all completely different from each other, making it hard to decide through casual thought process alone.

 

Being a stats man, I thought I’d let myself be swayed by the figures before coming to my final decision…

 

The key is to translate their W-D-L into playing fields which are as level as possible. Handily, all four led Thistle in both the top and the second tier, so right away we’re off to a good start – we can analyse how they down in those individual arenas. With this in mind, I decided to leave out John Lambie’s third tier activity – obviously his results there cannot be compared with the others, so will not serve the purposes of this query.

 

To level out number of games played and points won I have theoretically awarded 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and then calculated the points won per game, leaving a truly fair and unbiased result for each manager. I believe this to be as close to unequivocal measurement as we can reasonably expect, without getting the NASA scientists on the case.

 

I further decided that only the first class cup fixtures could be considered – let’s face it, the Scottish Cup and the League Cup are the only two that matter, and, besides, they’re the only 2 Cups which all four gaffers have been involved in, so their inclusion speaks for itself.

 

After some consideration, I decided it would be simplest for these Cup games to carry on with the points per game measurement as per the League campaigns.

 

League - 1st tier

1.29 - Bertie Auld (W65 D53 L74)

1.19 - Davie McParland (W31 D28 L43)

1.12 - Alan Archibald (W20 D22 L31)

1.10 - John Lambie (W42 D52 L68)

 

League - 2nd tier

2.38 - Alan Archibald (W11 D5 L0)

2.19 - Davie McParland (W23 D10 L3)

2.12 - Bertie Auld (W20 D10 L3)

1.71 - John Lambie (W80 D50 L40)

 

Scottish Cup

1.60 - Bertie Auld (W9 D5 L6)

1.27 - John Lambie (W8 D4 L10)

1.22 - Davie McParland (W3 D2 L4)

1.00 - Alan Archibald (W1 D0 L2)

 

 

League Cup

2.00 - Alan Archibald (W4 D0 L2)

1.53 - Davie McParland (W14 D13 L9)

1.49 - Bertie Auld (W15 D10 L12)

1.42 - John Lambie (W9 D0 L10)

 

 

Davie McParland

Romped the Second Division, won the League Cup in sensational style, took us into Europe, and had a great first season back in the top-flight, finishing 7^th. Forget stats, that was simply thee greatest start to a managerial career in Thistle’s history! Was anti-climactic from there, and it seemed like his side never recovered from the disappointment of losing their League Cup crown to East Fife in the following season’s competition. Davie’s Jags finished on a downward spiral of 11^th and 13^th in 18-team Leagues which included whitewashes from poor sides of the day like Arbroath and Clyde. By rights, he had a slight advantage over the others with my methodology but, as told by his points-per-game top-flight record, he never took full advantage of this. His Scottish Cup campaigns were disappointing, his one and only Quarter Final appearance ending in humiliation with a 5-1 thumping at home to Ayr United. Fell out with the board in the close season of 1974 and that was that. The highs were awesome, and he was a true Thistle man. A real shame it had a sour ending.

 

Best top-tier finish: 7th

League titles: 1

Major Cup wins: 1

Major Cup losing semis: 0

H*n conquests: 1

Tim Conquests: 2

 

 

Bertie Auld

Arrived as a Tim, and never quite shook that off, did he? He built a couple of amazing teams in his time although, unlike his predecessor, the first fruits of his labour were not immediately apparent. First season was a bit of a downer, although far from disastrous. Got to the League Cup Quarters only to be thumped 5-2 at home to Airdrie, and missed the cut for the new Premier League by 3 points. In 1975-76 it was Joe Craig and Dougie Somner (one of his many inspired signings) who spearheaded an excellent second tier campaign which was characterized by skilful attacking play. His young team were good enough to get to the League Cup semis and ran Celtic close.

 

The true managerial brilliance of the man came to the fore in the 4 season’s which followed – Thistle became rock solid members of the elite ten, with many memorable victories over Rangers. Somewhat suspiciously, victories against the EastEnders seemed harder to come by. Bertie’s Jags hold the 4 best post-reconstruction records (in terms of gathering points-per-game @ 3 pts per win), with 1977-78, 1978-79, 1979-80 being joint-best and 1976-77 sitting 4th. These are his only 4 full top-flight seasons - his record could hardly be any better in the circumstancees of the Thistle. Could be dour away from home, but I don’t think his sides get anywhere near enough credit for the footballing style that they turned on more often than is perceived. I often think that in his mind he was acting out some weird managerial fantasy that he was bossing the Lisbon Lions; Tannadice was the Iron Curtain, we could do them over the 2-legs kind-of-thing.

 

His stock was high and it came as no great surprise when he f*cked off to Hibs for a few bob and a crack at the bigger platform. We really missed the wee b*gger, and it all went downhill pretty quickly from there. To be fair, he came back to help us out of a hole in 1986, and it was like he’d never been away – whatever went on his dressing room certainly seemed to get a response from the boys. I’ll never forget Hugh Keevins breaking the news at lunchtime that Bertie was coming back. I was on home dinners - dancing about the kitchen I was! Worked his magic in a short-spell of 7 second tier games and then was shockingly undermined by the clueless Ken Bates. Bertie was up for the challenge at that time, and I’d have loved to see what he could have done.

 

He was never truly a Jag at heart, but does that matter? They could actually be Hungarian for all I care, it’s all about results and in that regard, Bertie’s stats are beyond reach of the rest. His top-flight record shows supremacy. Not only is his ppg way-ahead of the rest, it was done consistently over a longer run of games than the others. Bertie was also the undisputed king of the Scottish Cup campaigns, taking us to Hampden semis two years on the trot. Only cheating-b*stard-H*n officialdom in 1979 stopped Thistle from reaching their first Scottish Cup final in 49 years when Bobby Houston’s legitimate and glorious winner against Rangers was disgracefully chopped off. Still raging.

 

Best top-tier finish: 5th

League titles: 1

Major Cup wins: 0

Major Cup losing semis: 3

H*n conquests: 6

Tim Conquests: 1

 

 

John Lambie

A great guy, never started out as a Jag but he ended up as one. Always turned out for our supporters club fundraisers and once came out as a surprise guest for my mates’ 21^st. His fee? “Ach, a couple of whiskey’s, that’ll dae me!” Players played for him, fans loved him, his character was a dream fit for the club – at every spell his remit was to rejuvenate a dying patient. Who else would have had the vision to sign Ricky and Chico? Lambie’s seemingly barmy methodology was a genius that was priceless. His back from the dead miracles were truly wondrous feats and it’s no wonder he’s hailed as some sort of messiah. A complete legend. In this toughest of tough contests, the others have got the statistical edge on results – but Lambie probably registers as the manager who made us happiest.

 

Best top-tier finish: 8^th (twice)

League titles: 2

Major Cup wins: 0

Major Cup losing semis: 1

H*n conquests: 1

Tim Conquests: 3

 

 

Alan Archibald

The parallels with Davie McParland are obvious – both were established legends as players, both were rookie managers, both started their managerial careers in a blaze of glory. I can’t imagine that Archie’s start of 19 League games unbeaten will be broken in my lifetime. His style is completely different from any of his predecessors, I guess more as a product of his time and environment as anything else. His character is suited to the age of the prima-donna – he’s strong enough to make tough calls, and calm enough to keep heads cool. He knows what he’s after, every player knows what’s expected of him. Works some kinda-magic behind the scenes to keep a tremendous team-spirit alive – this has been a recurring, and highly important, feature in his two-year reign. He’s got all the ingredients to become one of the all-time great managers – his eye for a player is good, his vision is resolute, and he is well respected by all at team Thistle. I would say he has made progress as a manager season-on-season, which is coming to an exciting finish here in 2014-15. A 50 points tally is tantalisingly close – if reached it would give him a post-reconstruction top-flight best, surpassing any individual season of Bertie’s. We can’t say he’s the best of the 4 yet. But we can’t say that he won’t be in the seasons to come either. These are early chapters, but the stats are beginning to build up a bit of a story here…

 

Best top-tier finish: 10th

League titles: 1

Major Cup wins: 0

Major Cup losing semis: 0

H*n conquests: 0

Tim Conquests: 0

 

 

Overall verdict:

 

Bertie Auld takes it. He made many inspired signings including Brian Whittaker, Dougie Somner and Jim Melrose. Even right up to the very end we can thank him for Kenny Watson and Maurice Johnston. Question marks for disloyalty in 1980, he should have saw the season through. However, it’s results that matter. McParland’s star might have shone brightest, but Bertie’s floodlights were never dimmed. He was the King of the Scottish Cup run… and, most-importantly, our undisputed heavyweight champion of the top-flight. He merited those big fat cigars.

[Lindau]

Excellent summary TJR

Edited May 6, 2015 by Lindau

[jaggy]

I groaned when I seen the title of this thread... then breathed a sigh of relief and smiled when I read the content!

 

You’ve hit the nail on the head here Will, without doubt our 4 best managers of the last 45 years, and all completely different from each other, making it hard to decide through casual thought process alone.

 

Being a stats man, I thought I’d let myself be swayed by the figures before coming to my final decision…

 

The key is to translate their W-D-L into playing fields which are as level as possible. Handily, all four led Thistle in both the top and the second tier, so right away we’re off to a good start – we can analyse how they down in those individual arenas. With this in mind, I decided to leave out John Lambie’s third tier activity – obviously his results there cannot be compared with the others, so will not serve the purposes of this query.

 

To level out number of games played and points won I have theoretically awarded 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and then calculated the points won per game, leaving a truly fair and unbiased result for each manager. I believe this to be as close to unequivocal measurement as we can reasonably expect, without getting the NASA scientists on the case.

 

I further decided that only the first class cup fixtures could be considered – let’s face it, the Scottish Cup and the League Cup are the only two that matter, and, besides, they’re the only 2 Cups which all four gaffers have been involved in, so their inclusion speaks for itself.

 

After some consideration, I decided it would be simplest for these Cup games to carry on with the points per game measurement as per the League campaigns.

 

League - 1st tier

1.29 - Bertie Auld (W65 D53 L74)

1.19 - Davie McParland (W31 D28 L43)

1.12 - Alan Archibald (W20 D22 L31)

1.10 - John Lambie (W42 D52 L68)

 

League - 2nd tier

2.38 - Alan Archibald (W11 D5 L0)

2.19 - Davie McParland (W23 D10 L3)

2.12 - Bertie Auld (W20 D10 L3)

1.71 - John Lambie (W80 D50 L40)

 

Scottish Cup

1.60 - Bertie Auld (W9 D5 L6)

1.27 - John Lambie (W8 D4 L10)

1.22 - Davie McParland (W3 D2 L4)

1.00 - Alan Archibald (W1 D0 L2)

 

 

League Cup

2.00 - Alan Archibald (W4 D0 L2)

1.53 - Davie McParland (W14 D13 L9)

1.49 - Bertie Auld (W15 D10 L12)

1.42 - John Lambie (W9 D0 L10)

 

 

Davie McParland

Romped the Second Division, won the League Cup in sensational style, took us into Europe, and had a great first season back in the top-flight, finishing 7^th. Forget stats, that was simply thee greatest start to a managerial career in Thistle’s history! Was anti-climactic from there, and it seemed like his side never recovered from the disappointment of losing their League Cup crown to East Fife in the following season’s competition. Davie’s Jags finished on a downward spiral of 11^th and 13^th in 18-team Leagues which included whitewashes from poor sides of the day like Arbroath and Clyde. By rights, he had a slight advantage over the others with my methodology but, as told by his points-per-game top-flight record, he never took full advantage of this. His Scottish Cup campaigns were disappointing, his one and only Quarter Final appearance ending in humiliation with a 5-1 thumping at home to Ayr United. Fell out with the board in the close season of 1974 and that was that. The highs were awesome, and he was a true Thistle man. A real shame it had a sour ending.

 

Best top-tier finish: 7th

League titles: 1

Major Cup wins: 1

Major Cup losing semis: 0

H*n conquests: 1

Tim Conquests: 2

 

 

Bertie Auld

Arrived as a Tim, and never quite shook that off, did he? He built a couple of amazing teams in his time although, unlike his predecessor, the first fruits of his labour were not immediately apparent. First season was a bit of a downer, although far from disastrous. Got to the League Cup Quarters only to be thumped 5-2 at home to Airdrie, and missed the cut for the new Premier League by 3 points. In 1975-76 it was Joe Craig and Dougie Somner (one of his many inspired signings) who spearheaded an excellent second tier campaign which was characterized by skilful attacking play. His young team were good enough to get to the League Cup semis and ran Celtic close.

 

The true managerial brilliance of the man came to the fore in the 4 season’s which followed – Thistle became rock solid members of the elite ten, with many memorable victories over Rangers. Somewhat suspiciously, victories against the EastEnders seemed harder to come by. Bertie’s Jags hold the 4 best post-reconstruction records (in terms of gathering points-per-game @ 3 pts per win), with 1977-78, 1978-79, 1979-80 being joint-best and 1976-77 sitting 4th. These are his only 4 full top-flight seasons - his record could hardly be any better in the circumstancees of the Thistle. Could be dour away from home, but I don’t think his sides get anywhere near enough credit for the footballing style that they turned on more often than is perceived. I often think that in his mind he was acting out some weird managerial fantasy that he was bossing the Lisbon Lions; Tannadice was the Iron Curtain, we could do them over the 2-legs kind-of-thing.

 

His stock was high and it came as no great surprise when he f*cked off to Hibs for a few bob and a crack at the bigger platform. We really missed the wee b*gger, and it all went downhill pretty quickly from there. To be fair, he came back to help us out of a hole in 1986, and it was like he’d never been away – whatever went on his dressing room certainly seemed to get a response from the boys. I’ll never forget Hugh Keevins breaking the news at lunchtime that Bertie was coming back. I was on home dinners - dancing about the kitchen I was! Worked his magic in a short-spell of 7 second tier games and then was shockingly undermined by the clueless Ken Bates. Bertie was up for the challenge at that time, and I’d have loved to see what he could have done.

 

He was never truly a Jag at heart, but does that matter? They could actually be Hungarian for all I care, it’s all about results and in that regard, Bertie’s stats are beyond reach of the rest. His top-flight record shows supremacy. Not only is his ppg way-ahead of the rest, it was done consistently over a longer run of games than the others. Bertie was also the undisputed king of the Scottish Cup campaigns, taking us to Hampden semis two years on the trot. Only cheating-b*stard-H*n officialdom in 1979 stopped Thistle from reaching their first Scottish Cup final in 49 years when Bobby Houston’s legitimate and glorious winner against Rangers was disgracefully chopped off. Still raging.

 

Best top-tier finish: 5th

League titles: 1

Major Cup wins: 0

Major Cup losing semis: 3

H*n conquests: 6

Tim Conquests: 1

 

 

John Lambie

A great guy, never started out as a Jag but he ended up as one. Always turned out for our supporters club fundraisers and once came out as a surprise guest for my mates’ 21^st. His fee? “Ach, a couple of whiskey’s, that’ll dae me!” Players played for him, fans loved him, his character was a dream fit for the club – at every spell his remit was to rejuvenate a dying patient. Who else would have had the vision to sign Ricky and Chico? Lambie’s seemingly barmy methodology was a genius that was priceless. His back from the dead miracles were truly wondrous feats and it’s no wonder he’s hailed as some sort of messiah. A complete legend. In this toughest of tough contests, the others have got the statistical edge on results – but Lambie probably registers as the manager who made us happiest.

 

Best top-tier finish: 8^th (twice)

League titles: 2

Major Cup wins: 0

Major Cup losing semis: 1

H*n conquests: 1

Tim Conquests: 3

 

 

Alan Archibald

The parallels with Davie McParland are obvious – both were established legends as players, both were rookie managers, both started their managerial careers in a blaze of glory. I can’t imagine that Archie’s start of 19 League games unbeaten will be broken in my lifetime. His style is completely different from any of his predecessors, I guess more as a product of his time and environment as anything else. His character is suited to the age of the prima-donna – he’s strong enough to make tough calls, and calm enough to keep heads cool. He knows what he’s after, every player knows what’s expected of him. Works some kinda-magic behind the scenes to keep a tremendous team-spirit alive – this has been a recurring, and highly important, feature in his two-year reign. He’s got all the ingredients to become one of the all-time great managers – his eye for a player is good, his vision is resolute, and he is well respected by all at team Thistle. I would say he has made progress as a manager season-on-season, which is coming to an exciting finish here in 2014-15. A 50 points tally is tantalisingly close – if reached it would give him a post-reconstruction top-flight best, surpassing any individual season of Bertie’s. We can’t say he’s the best of the 4 yet. But we can’t say that he won’t be in the seasons to come either. These are early chapters, but the stats are beginning to build up a bit of a story here…

 

Best top-tier finish: 10th

League titles: 1

Major Cup wins: 0

Major Cup losing semis: 0

H*n conquests: 0

Tim Conquests: 0

 

 

Overall verdict:

 

Bertie Auld takes it. He made many inspired signings including Brian Whittaker, Dougie Somner and Jim Melrose. Even right up to the very end we can thank him for Kenny Watson and Maurice Johnston. Question marks for disloyalty in 1980, he should have saw the season through. However, it’s results that matter. McParland’s star might have shone brightest, but Bertie’s floodlights were never dimmed. He was the King of the Scottish Cup run… and, most-importantly, our undisputed heavyweight champion of the top-flight. He merited those big fat cigars.

great summary

[Lindau]

Regarding Bertie's poor record against his old club, I have been told on many occasions by two former players (one who did the 50/50 raffle on Saturday!!!) that Bertie was more desperate to beat Celtic than any other side in the league!!

Edited May 5, 2015 by Lindau

[Jimmy McD]

thanks jukebox a fantastic post of info.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Great informative post, TJR . Particularly appreciate how you've split the league stats between 1st and 2nd tier.

[allyo]

Okay TJR, I love your posts, and this stuff is great, but I'm going to take slight issue with something, and I think it's something you'll maybe agree with me on to some extent.

 

Archie has a slight advantage when comparing top flight records. This being that he has (now twice) finished in the bottom six and therefore played a majority of fixtures against lower placed teams. I reckon it may be more valid to discount post split results.

 

Personally I like the split and think it works really well, but as a statistician I can see why you'd hate it.

 

I would note that if Archie can get us into the top six for the next couple of seasons then it would balance things out and validate bringing these results back in. :-)

Edited May 5, 2015 by allyo

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Allyo,

 

You've taken that too far. If I was to go down a route like that I'd need to start reconsidering Davie Mac, with his big 18 team Leagues. Should I cut off his bottom 6 teams?

 

I'm sticking!

 

For the side interest:

 

1.03 - Alan Archibald (W16 D20 L30)

 

I do hate the split, but it's nowt to do with the stats. The whole thing has no sporting integrity as we've discussed many times before.

 

Here's another point: Imagine the scenario you're on an awesome run, as per Ross County lately. Cracking momentum, you've climbed from 10th to 7th, then WHAM. Door shut. You can't go any higher. You carry on the momentum, win your last 5 games coz you're on red hot form. By match day 38, you look up the table and see that your run would have taken into 4th spot and a place in Europe. You'd be raging, and it could so easily happen.

[allyo]

Ah. On your first point I defer. Agreed, and apologies for being so pedantic.

 

But regarding the split, I can't agree. (But you know that). Arguing that it's unfair to split the league when you're on a good run is like arguing that it's unfair to end the season when you're on a good run. Top six places are decided over 33 games where everyone plays everyone an equal amount of times (okay, home and away's a wee bit skewed). I don't see the problem. Everyone knows the rules before they start, that door doesn't shut WHAM out of nowhere.

 

Where do you stand on play-offs? I think these are more inherently unfair, potentially rewarding the team that finishes fourth above the one that finishes second. But again it adds excitement and I don't see the problem.

 

Sport is full of these little discrepancies, but they're just rules. A question of where you draw the line in any scoring system.A tennis player can win the most points and still lose the match, a snooker player can score the most points and lose the most frames. Whose to say the guy who misses the cut in a golf tournament wouldn't have gone on to win at the end? And look at the play-off systems in the NFL. Even in football, is a win and a defeat really better than two draws? Why should away goals be worth more?

 

And why shouldn't the team who has the third best goal difference in the SPFL finish third and qualify for Europe, just because the points are awarded based on 90 minute blocks of time?

[The Jukebox Rebel]

All that you say about the rules being set everyone knows the score, I agree with. I could even deal with a split if it was more like the Belgian model.

 

No team should have to deal with 18 home, 20 away games. Some teams having to play twice at Celtic Park, others just once.

 

I just can't get over that, it's just not on.

 

Play offs are completely brilliant, love them, spice up the whole season. No problem with the format at all. In fact, in my pub talk masterplan, I'd even up the ante further. But I'll save that one for another day.

 

Your enthusiasm for rewarding GD wouldn't have anything to do with a certain team from the Glasgow NW would it ha-ha,

 

Anyway, come on now Allyo, you've not answered the big question...

 

"So, as Chairman of the Club you have the choice of one of these four Managerial legends from their heyday as Partick Thistle Boss. Who would you choose and why?"

[Willjag]

Terrific stuff TJR and as it happens, Bertie would be my number 1 Boss in this scenario. As I've stated elsewhere, he assembled the best set of players I've personally ever seen at Firhill. Some he brought in and others that were already at the Club he moulded into a great side. The biggest advantage the first 2 (and Lambie to a certain extent) have over Archie though, is that there was no freedom of contract in those days so it was easier to hold onto players and build a team. Lambie's greatest strength was his ability to rebuild the team just about every season.

 

No one can ever under estimate what McParland did for the Club building a young side good enough to win us our only other major honour. However, I never felt that he built on the success of that side as well as he could have, perhaps showing too much loyalty to the Cup winners and for that reason, in a 1, 2, 3, 4 of these guys, Davie would be my 4th choice.

 

I played football most Saturday afternoons in the late 70's - 80's and therefore missed a lot of those seasons (probably fortunately as they were undoubtedly the worst times to be a Jag!) and my return to supporting the Jags more frequently coincided with Lambie's arrival at Firhill and for this reason, I've a great affection for the man as a Jags managerial legend.

 

As for Archie, his achievements have been fantastic so far. He's clearly learned as time has gone on and continues to improve as a Manager and knows what needs to be done to improve the playing side too. For me at the moment, I find it difficult to split him and Lambie for 2nd place but if pushed, I'd go for Lambie. Archie has the potential to replace Bertie at the top of my four. He's had the team playing the most attractive football I've seen at Firhill since the days of Alan Hansen, Houston, Somner and Joe Craig but of course, football Management being what it is that could all so quickly change and he could just as easily end up in my 4th position.

 

Here's hoping he ends up top though!

[Jaggernaut]

I groaned when I seen the title of this thread... then breathed a sigh of relief and smiled when I read the content!

 

You’ve hit the nail on the head here Will, without doubt our 4 best managers of the last 45 years, and all completely different from each other, making it hard to decide through casual thought process alone.

 

Being a stats man, I thought I’d let myself be swayed by the figures before coming to my final decision…

 

The key is to translate their W-D-L into playing fields which are as level as possible. Handily, all four led Thistle in both the top and the second tier, so right away we’re off to a good start – we can analyse how they down in those individual arenas. With this in mind, I decided to leave out John Lambie’s third tier activity – obviously his results there cannot be compared with the others, so will not serve the purposes of this query.

 

To level out number of games played and points won I have theoretically awarded 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and then calculated the points won per game, leaving a truly fair and unbiased result for each manager. I believe this to be as close to unequivocal measurement as we can reasonably expect, without getting the NASA scientists on the case.

 

I further decided that only the first class cup fixtures could be considered – let’s face it, the Scottish Cup and the League Cup are the only two that matter, and, besides, they’re the only 2 Cups which all four gaffers have been involved in, so their inclusion speaks for itself.

 

After some consideration, I decided it would be simplest for these Cup games to carry on with the points per game measurement as per the League campaigns.

 

League - 1st tier

1.29 - Bertie Auld (W65 D53 L74)

1.19 - Davie McParland (W31 D28 L43)

1.12 - Alan Archibald (W20 D22 L31)

1.10 - John Lambie (W42 D52 L68)

 

League - 2nd tier

2.38 - Alan Archibald (W11 D5 L0)

2.19 - Davie McParland (W23 D10 L3)

2.12 - Bertie Auld (W20 D10 L3)

1.71 - John Lambie (W80 D50 L40)

 

Scottish Cup

1.60 - Bertie Auld (W9 D5 L6)

1.27 - John Lambie (W8 D4 L10)

1.22 - Davie McParland (W3 D2 L4)

1.00 - Alan Archibald (W1 D0 L2)

 

 

League Cup

2.00 - Alan Archibald (W4 D0 L2)

1.53 - Davie McParland (W14 D13 L9)

1.49 - Bertie Auld (W15 D10 L12)

1.42 - John Lambie (W9 D0 L10)

 

 

Davie McParland

Romped the Second Division, won the League Cup in sensational style, took us into Europe, and had a great first season back in the top-flight, finishing 7^th. Forget stats, that was simply thee greatest start to a managerial career in Thistle’s history! Was anti-climactic from there, and it seemed like his side never recovered from the disappointment of losing their League Cup crown to East Fife in the following season’s competition. Davie’s Jags finished on a downward spiral of 11^th and 13^th in 18-team Leagues which included whitewashes from poor sides of the day like Arbroath and Clyde. By rights, he had a slight advantage over the others with my methodology but, as told by his points-per-game top-flight record, he never took full advantage of this. His Scottish Cup campaigns were disappointing, his one and only Quarter Final appearance ending in humiliation with a 5-1 thumping at home to Ayr United. Fell out with the board in the close season of 1974 and that was that. The highs were awesome, and he was a true Thistle man. A real shame it had a sour ending.

 

Best top-tier finish: 7th

League titles: 1

Major Cup wins: 1

Major Cup losing semis: 0

H*n conquests: 1

Tim Conquests: 2

 

 

Bertie Auld

Arrived as a Tim, and never quite shook that off, did he? He built a couple of amazing teams in his time although, unlike his predecessor, the first fruits of his labour were not immediately apparent. First season was a bit of a downer, although far from disastrous. Got to the League Cup Quarters only to be thumped 5-2 at home to Airdrie, and missed the cut for the new Premier League by 3 points. In 1975-76 it was Joe Craig and Dougie Somner (one of his many inspired signings) who spearheaded an excellent second tier campaign which was characterized by skilful attacking play. His young team were good enough to get to the League Cup semis and ran Celtic close.

 

The true managerial brilliance of the man came to the fore in the 4 season’s which followed – Thistle became rock solid members of the elite ten, with many memorable victories over Rangers. Somewhat suspiciously, victories against the EastEnders seemed harder to come by. Bertie’s Jags hold the 4 best post-reconstruction records (in terms of gathering points-per-game @ 3 pts per win), with 1977-78, 1978-79, 1979-80 being joint-best and 1976-77 sitting 4th. These are his only 4 full top-flight seasons - his record could hardly be any better in the circumstancees of the Thistle. Could be dour away from home, but I don’t think his sides get anywhere near enough credit for the footballing style that they turned on more often than is perceived. I often think that in his mind he was acting out some weird managerial fantasy that he was bossing the Lisbon Lions; Tannadice was the Iron Curtain, we could do them over the 2-legs kind-of-thing.

 

His stock was high and it came as no great surprise when he f*cked off to Hibs for a few bob and a crack at the bigger platform. We really missed the wee b*gger, and it all went downhill pretty quickly from there. To be fair, he came back to help us out of a hole in 1986, and it was like he’d never been away – whatever went on his dressing room certainly seemed to get a response from the boys. I’ll never forget Hugh Keevins breaking the news at lunchtime that Bertie was coming back. I was on home dinners - dancing about the kitchen I was! Worked his magic in a short-spell of 7 second tier games and then was shockingly undermined by the clueless Ken Bates. Bertie was up for the challenge at that time, and I’d have loved to see what he could have done.

 

He was never truly a Jag at heart, but does that matter? They could actually be Hungarian for all I care, it’s all about results and in that regard, Bertie’s stats are beyond reach of the rest. His top-flight record shows supremacy. Not only is his ppg way-ahead of the rest, it was done consistently over a longer run of games than the others. Bertie was also the undisputed king of the Scottish Cup campaigns, taking us to Hampden semis two years on the trot. Only cheating-b*stard-H*n officialdom in 1979 stopped Thistle from reaching their first Scottish Cup final in 49 years when Bobby Houston’s legitimate and glorious winner against Rangers was disgracefully chopped off. Still raging.

 

Best top-tier finish: 5th

League titles: 1

Major Cup wins: 0

Major Cup losing semis: 3

H*n conquests: 6

Tim Conquests: 1

 

 

John Lambie

A great guy, never started out as a Jag but he ended up as one. Always turned out for our supporters club fundraisers and once came out as a surprise guest for my mates’ 21^st. His fee? “Ach, a couple of whiskey’s, that’ll dae me!” Players played for him, fans loved him, his character was a dream fit for the club – at every spell his remit was to rejuvenate a dying patient. Who else would have had the vision to sign Ricky and Chico? Lambie’s seemingly barmy methodology was a genius that was priceless. His back from the dead miracles were truly wondrous feats and it’s no wonder he’s hailed as some sort of messiah. A complete legend. In this toughest of tough contests, the others have got the statistical edge on results – but Lambie probably registers as the manager who made us happiest.

 

Best top-tier finish: 8^th (twice)

League titles: 2

Major Cup wins: 0

Major Cup losing semis: 1

H*n conquests: 1

Tim Conquests: 3

 

 

Alan Archibald

The parallels with Davie McParland are obvious – both were established legends as players, both were rookie managers, both started their managerial careers in a blaze of glory. I can’t imagine that Archie’s start of 19 League games unbeaten will be broken in my lifetime. His style is completely different from any of his predecessors, I guess more as a product of his time and environment as anything else. His character is suited to the age of the prima-donna – he’s strong enough to make tough calls, and calm enough to keep heads cool. He knows what he’s after, every player knows what’s expected of him. Works some kinda-magic behind the scenes to keep a tremendous team-spirit alive – this has been a recurring, and highly important, feature in his two-year reign. He’s got all the ingredients to become one of the all-time great managers – his eye for a player is good, his vision is resolute, and he is well respected by all at team Thistle. I would say he has made progress as a manager season-on-season, which is coming to an exciting finish here in 2014-15. A 50 points tally is tantalisingly close – if reached it would give him a post-reconstruction top-flight best, surpassing any individual season of Bertie’s. We can’t say he’s the best of the 4 yet. But we can’t say that he won’t be in the seasons to come either. These are early chapters, but the stats are beginning to build up a bit of a story here…

 

Best top-tier finish: 10th

League titles: 1

Major Cup wins: 0

Major Cup losing semis: 0

H*n conquests: 0

Tim Conquests: 0

 

 

Overall verdict:

 

Bertie Auld takes it. He made many inspired signings including Brian Whittaker, Dougie Somner and Jim Melrose. Even right up to the very end we can thank him for Kenny Watson and Maurice Johnston. Question marks for disloyalty in 1980, he should have saw the season through. However, it’s results that matter. McParland’s star might have shone brightest, but Bertie’s floodlights were never dimmed. He was the King of the Scottish Cup run… and, most-importantly, our undisputed heavyweight champion of the top-flight. He merited those big fat cigars.

 

A brilliant critical analysis, TJR.

[Jaggernaut]

Allyo,

 

You've taken that too far. If I was to go down a route like that I'd need to start reconsidering Davie Mac, with his big 18 team Leagues. Should I cut off his bottom 6 teams?

 

I'm sticking!

 

For the side interest:

 

1.03 - Alan Archibald (W16 D20 L30)

 

I do hate the split, but it's nowt to do with the stats. The whole thing has no sporting integrity as we've discussed many times before.

 

Here's another point: Imagine the scenario you're on an awesome run, as per Ross County lately. Cracking momentum, you've climbed from 10th to 7th, then WHAM. Door shut. You can't go any higher. You carry on the momentum, win your last 5 games coz you're on red hot form. By match day 38, you look up the table and see that your run would have taken into 4th spot and a place in Europe. You'd be raging, and it could so easily happen.

 

Exactly why clubs (and even fans) should aim for the split to be withdrawn.

[Lenziejag]

Really enjoyed reading that analysis and based on the points per game it would need to be Bertie. I was a bit perplexed by the number of LC games he lost though. When he was manager was it 2 leg matches that were played in some of the rounds. Surely sections weren't still in operation then.

 

However to get back to your question, as Chairman I don't think all the relevant data is there. How did each of them add to my pocket,I mean coffers of the club. After all it's all about the money, isn't it !

[Lenziejag]

Regarding the points won during the split - you could argue that each one is worth more because they are won against teams that are fighting for survival.

[allyo]

Your enthusiasm for rewarding GD wouldn't have anything to do with a certain team from the Glasgow NW would it ha-ha,

 

 

Anyway, come on now Allyo, you've not answered the big question...

 

"So, as Chairman of the Club you have the choice of one of these four Managerial legends from their heyday as Partick Thistle Boss. Who would you choose and why?"

 

It's a hard call. Your stats would say Bertie Auld, particularly as he had a strong, small Premier League to contend with. But the League Cup win was obviously massive.

 

But both were (only just) before my time. The 1971 LC was the last major Scottish trophy awarded before I was born. Talk about bad timing!

 

Lambie's record is impressive in its context. Through a 20 year period every other manager managed to mess things up completely. You could basically rank these seasons in order of success, and there would be a clean split where the top ten would be Lambie and the bottom ten would be "others". He brought us back from nowhere, at least twice!

 

However, ever the optimist, I'm going to go for Alan Archibald. He may not have quite proved himself against the others, but he's on the right track, he conducts himself well, and I reckon he's going to take us further than anyone in the past.

[briogadh]

.... and all done with a team which was largely composed of part-time players. Changed days indeed.

[Richard Nixon]

How about leaving this all alone until Archibald's tenure is actually over?

[The Jukebox Rebel]

^ I hear you, but perhaps folks feel the need to evaluate where Archie stands at the moment, in light of the extreme criticism dished out this season by a miniscule but loud minority?

 

I hope Scott McFarlane is reading.

 

If so, you have a right to reply Scott...

[allyo]

How about leaving this all alone until Archibald's tenure is actually over?

 

I might be dead by then.