The Incredible Adam Spark Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 Thought it would be apt to ask this now, given Dundee's appeal will be heard this week. Now, I understand circumstances would be viewed differently as we haven't been in administration and we seem to be doing everything within our power to reduce costs, but in view of David Beattie's programme notes and our present precarious situation, would you be prepared to see Dundee's punishment reduced with one eye on the future financial stability of our club? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 Thought it would be apt to ask this now, given Dundee's appeal will be heard this week. Now, I understand circumstances would be viewed differently as we haven't been in administration and we seem to be doing everything within our power to reduce costs, but in view of David Beattie's programme notes and our present precarious situation, would you be prepared to see Dundee's punishment reduced with one eye on the future financial stability of our club? No, the full punishment should stand. Haven't they won every match they've played since they were punished? In other words, the players that they bought and are still paying on money that they didn't have are continuing to give them an unfair advantage over all their competitors. If anything, their 100% record since the judgement reinforces the view that they need to be punished severely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Incredible Adam Spark Posted December 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 That doesn't really address the point I was making, though. I'm talking self-preservation, here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 That doesn't really address the point I was making, though. I'm talking self-preservation, here. But then anything goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Incredible Adam Spark Posted December 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 But then anything goes. Well, it doesn't. I'm not suggesting they escape scot free, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 So what should they get? What the Dundee fans and club think is "reasonable", i.e., a 10-point reduction? They've won more than 10 points since their punishment was announced! So it's actually no punishment at all! If that's all the punishment that repeated and chronic attempts to cheat your way through the system incurs then every team might as well just spend millions that they don't have and then go crying for administration. That cannot be allowed, or we might as well just chuck it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianlucatoni Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 (edited) Thought it would be apt to ask this now, given Dundee's appeal will be heard this week. Now, I understand circumstances would be viewed differently as we haven't been in administration and we seem to be doing everything within our power to reduce costs, but in view of David Beattie's programme notes and our present precarious situation, would you be prepared to see Dundee's punishment reduced with one eye on the future financial stability of our club? Nope - I hope the 25 point punishment stands as they have flagrantly tried to cheat the system (again). I also hope they have the option to increase it to 30 or 35 points to kick their ridiculous appeal into touch. If we go t*ts up then so be it - questions will have to be asked regarding how a reduced playing budget, full-time players, falling attendances and the Warriors paying rent and staffing costs will have led us to the point - but I'd expect us to be treated more leniently than scumdee. It will be interesting to see how many scottish clubs survive the next 5 years. Edited December 12, 2010 by gianlucatoni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Incredible Adam Spark Posted December 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 (edited) That cannot be allowed, or we might as well just chuck it. Will we have that choice? Edited December 12, 2010 by The Incredible Adam Spark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 Dundee's punishment should be increased to 35 points for having had the cheek to appeal. I hope they are wiped off the face of the planet. If we went into admin, it would be for compeletely different reasons than Dundee and should be judged accordingly. We've not spent all our cash (including cash we didn't have) on players trying to chase promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 John Lambie Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 Although our circumstances would be different, it would take some balls from the SFL to treat us different to Dungdee. Yes it's a totally different situation, but I don't see us getting a more lenient punishment, purely because of what's happening to Dungdee currently. That is of course, if their punishment isn't reduced, then it would be easier for the SFL to give us the reduced punishment. Anyway, lets hope we never need to find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 If the SPL 2 stuff comes in to play, we'll need to finish at least 8th to have any chance of being in it and not what's left below it. Right now even allowing for a potential Dundee flop a 10 point deduction would see us tumble, so it doesn't necessarily matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKennan Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 I'm actually trying to work out what the implications for Thistle of David Beattie's statement are. As to Dundee and any other club that goes into administration, hell mend them. The only issue is the degree of punishment and what the precedents are. More musical chairs from the people in charge of the game. This should be in writing straight from the off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Incredible Adam Spark Posted December 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 I'm actually trying to work out what the implications for Thistle of David Beattie's statement are. It's a bit ambiguous, isn't it? Raise £100,000, or...what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKennan Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 It's a bit ambiguous, isn't it? Raise £100,000, or...what? I dunno. We'll have to send the board out in lieu of a team? Actually, I'd pay handsomely to see that. Seriously though, I expect there's a whiff of administration about this at the very least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Incredible Adam Spark Posted December 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 I dunno. We'll have to send the board out in lieu of a team? Actually, I'd pay handsomely to see that. Seriously though, I expect there's a whiff of administration about this at the very least. The board "categorically" denied we were facing that, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 (edited) I don't understand the 25 pt deduction in the first place so I can't really answer the original question. The 25 pts as far as I'm aware isn't quantifiable just arbitrary SFL nonsense. The SFL have both no fixed penalty for a club entering administration and also no further punishment re either the length of time that club is in administration or the level of ensuing CVA and so imo are incompetent. I detest Dundee FC but at that I feel even they should have the right to be tried by non imbeciles. Edited December 12, 2010 by lady-isobel-barnett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryHell Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 Dundee's punishment is more than most of us expected, but is pretty much in line with what we though they deserved. Thistle being in administration is hypothetical and one which every other club in Scotland could ask at present - what if it was us? I don't think that this should be a consideration when their punishment is decided. Every case is judged differently - Dundee and Livi for instance haven't received identical punishments. Dundee were also criticised for using the HMRC as an overdraft facility - and it looks that even if the Marr consortium takes over that this will not be repaid in full. There were also other creditors who will go unpaid - this cannot be allowed to be ignored. On the point that this topic seems to have morphed into - £100,000 should be beyond us - we still got plenty on home games left from where to raise a bit of cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKennan Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 The board "categorically" denied we were facing that, though. Yes, well, that was weeks ago and a week is a long time in football. So, we need £100,000 over the next five and a half months to keep it together but we're not in danger of administration. That appears to be the picture. I - and I suspect a lot of other folk - are taking the tone of David's statement as a warning. What is the full picture here? How was the £100,000 arrived at? I'm not doubting his word, just unclear about the consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKennan Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 On the point that this topic seems to have morphed into - £100,000 should be beyond us - we still got plenty on home games left from where to raise a bit of cash. The trick will be in how it's done, which is why I am interested in this 'initiative'. Given economic circumstances for most fans, compassion fatigue will kick in quite early in the process unless it's a real humdinger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryHell Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 The trick will be in how it's done, which is why I am interested in this 'initiative'. Given economic circumstances for most fans, compassion fatigue will kick in quite early in the process unless it's a real humdinger. From what I understand, we're only being told we need £100,000 between now and the end of the season - not that we need an additional £100,000 on top of what they would usually expect. Have I misinterpreted this? We've got 11 home games left - how much do we make on average from a home game? 750 calendars have been printed - if they sell them all thats £3750 (minus costs) If we print the same amount of programmes, and they all sell, thats £20,635 (minus costs) That's a quarter of the cash, before gate money/food&drink/advertising/hospitality etc. I'm not saying we are home and dry, just that we needn't be quite as negative about it, but we can all play our part. Hopefully, we can achieve the £100,000 from matchdays alone, with the new initiative being something else that will catch the suporters imagination, and help secure our future futher. Mon the Jags ... heads up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted December 15, 2010 Report Share Posted December 15, 2010 Although our circumstances would be different, it would take some balls from the SFL to treat us different to Dungdee. Yes it's a totally different situation, but I don't see us getting a more lenient punishment, purely because of what's happening to Dungdee currently. That is of course, if their punishment isn't reduced, then it would be easier for the SFL to give us the reduced punishment. Anyway, lets hope we never need to find out. Is Dundee's situation not similar to Livingston - who were relegated to Div 3. So aleady the league are treating them differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Psychosis Posted December 15, 2010 Report Share Posted December 15, 2010 If Dundee don't end up getting relegated this season I could see myself chucking Scottish football. If teams can cheat so blatantly and get away with it then whats the point in continuing? The game up here gets more depressing by the week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted December 15, 2010 Report Share Posted December 15, 2010 If Dundee don't end up getting relegated this season I could see myself chucking Scottish football. If teams can cheat so blatantly and get away with it then whats the point in continuing? The game up here gets more depressing by the week Totally agree. I imagine Livingston fans would feel the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted December 15, 2010 Report Share Posted December 15, 2010 If Dundee don't end up getting relegated this season I could see myself chucking Scottish football. If teams can cheat so blatantly and get away with it then whats the point in continuing? The game up here gets more depressing by the week I'd but a bit surprised if -25pts is enough to relegate them. Ironically if their punishment was reduced to -15pts they might lose out on home crowds. The original punishment could see their Div 1 survival go close to the wire whereas a reduced penalty will probably see them safely remain in Div 1 but nowhere near challenging. the irony being that the former scenario will ensure larger crowds and thus more revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted December 15, 2010 Report Share Posted December 15, 2010 I want to see their penaly increased for having the cheek to complain. The way they are going on about it, you would think that a season in Div 2 would kill them. We've had to endure it twice (including once right after STJ) A good dose of hulility would be the best thing that could happent to them. If they can't handle it, I would gladly watch them go bust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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