The Pitch

[ian_mac]

Discuss...

 

Saturday for me was the worst I've ever seen it, probably because there was a rugby match the night before.

 

The worst I had seen it before saturday was the 1st leg playoff defeat to Peterhead in May 2006. But Saturday, for me, was much worse.

[potty trained]

On the one hand, the income generated from the rugby, the Club will tell you. We can not survive without. On the other hand, loss of Thistle fans due to the appauling level of football being played on the mud, may see us unable to survive!

 

Our board obviously see the income from the rugby as more important to them than getting Thistle fans through the gate via entertaining football.

 

The rugby generates £100,000 for the Club. But leaves the pitch looking like a mud bath.

 

To generate the same £100,000 through Thistle home games, would mean bringing in 6000 over the course of a season. thats only about 300 punters a game.

 

However, I would suggest that the pitch being the way it is, is seeing the Club loose money.

 

Scenario 1: I'm a lapsed Jags fan, guy in the work comes in on the Monday... You should see the state of that pitch, it's a shambles. Players can't control, pass or run with the ball. It's a joke to be expected to pay £17 to watch that!

 

Scenario 2: I'm a lapsed Jags fan, guy in the work comes in on the Monday... What a game that was at the weekend, no joke, we are playing some great football, ball on the deck, wingers running at defenders. Don't get me wrong, we drew 2.2... but some of the football we are playing is well worth the £17.

 

What scenario do you think would bring in the 300 punters a game?

What scenario is turning folk away?

 

Of course the real question is, why are the Club not holding the rugby groundsmen responsible?

 

When was the last time the Club, via the website or programme, made a statement apologising for the pitch and telling us how they are going to get it fixed?

 

 

 

 

Of course, it's a lot easier for Propco to make their profit, and close the Club when there's only 1000 fans going. They couldn't do that if there was 3 or 4000 and we were being entertained every week.

[Woodstock Jag]

The pitch was absolutely fine until about December.

 

It looks bad, but I'm not convinced for a minute that it's as bad as some people make it out to be, or that it's substantially worse than some of the other pitches in the first division which don't have the extra strain put on them.

 

Attendances are plummeting all round Scottish football. To blame our pitch in isolation doesn't provide the real reason IMO.

[Lindau]

 

 

I'm not convinced for a minute that it's as bad as some people make it out to be, or that it's substantially worse than some of the other pitches in the first division

 

Cant comment on other pitches as I am basically a "home" attender now but in 50 years of following the jags I have never seen the Firhill pitch in that state. Frankly it matches up with the rest of the ground...its a feckin shambles

[Pie Of The Month]

The pitch held up well at the rugby on Friday night. It was in fact in better condition on Saturday afternoon before kick off than it was just before the rugby kicked off on Friday.

[little_miss_jag]

On the one hand, the income generated from the rugby, the Club will tell you. We can not survive without. On the other hand, loss of Thistle fans due to the appauling level of football being played on the mud, may see us unable to survive!

 

Our board obviously see the income from the rugby as more important to them than getting Thistle fans through the gate via entertaining football.

The rugby generates £100,000 for the Club. But leaves the pitch looking like a mud bath.

 

To generate the same £100,000 through Thistle home games, would mean bringing in 6000 over the course of a season. thats only about 300 punters a game.

 

However, I would suggest that the pitch being the way it is, is seeing the Club loose money.

 

Scenario 1: I'm a lapsed Jags fan, guy in the work comes in on the Monday... You should see the state of that pitch, it's a shambles. Players can't control, pass or run with the ball. It's a joke to be expected to pay £17 to watch that!

 

Scenario 2: I'm a lapsed Jags fan, guy in the work comes in on the Monday... What a game that was at the weekend, no joke, we are playing some great football, ball on the deck, wingers running at defenders. Don't get me wrong, we drew 2.2... but some of the football we are playing is well worth the £17.

 

What scenario do you think would bring in the 300 punters a game?

What scenario is turning folk away?

 

Of course the real question is, why are the Club not holding the rugby groundsmen responsible?

 

When was the last time the Club, via the website or programme, made a statement apologising for the pitch and telling us how they are going to get it fixed?

 

 

 

 

Of course, it's a lot easier for Propco to make their profit, and close the Club when there's only 1000 fans going. They couldn't do that if there was 3 or 4000 and we were being entertained every week.

 

 

So you're suggesting that the club tell the Warriors to take their money and find somewhere else to play? And hope that a much better pitch will generate an extra 300 fans per home game? Great Idea. Wonder why the club have not did that already.

 

Or perhaps its the fact that lapsed jags always seem to have an excuse of some sort. The pitch is crap, it's too expensive, I don't like the board etc etc why not just admit you can't be arsed to come along week in week out and see the team win lose or draw. It's not great but if we all took the attitude of lapsed fans then there would be no PTFC and for me that is more of a worry than the pitch being crap or it being a little pricey to go!

 

The pitch is pants- we know that - but to suggest we tell the warriors to find somewhere else to play is just pure idiocy imho. We cannot survive without that money and if you think otherwise then you are a fool, and as I said a better pitch is not going to generate your extra 300 fans because their will always be an excuse.

 

And as for an apology from the club for the state of the pitch - What would that achieve? Or would it just make you feel better?

Edited March 21, 2011 by little_miss_jag

[OorWull]

Discuss...

 

Saturday for me was the worst I've ever seen it, probably because there was a rugby match the night before.

 

The worst I had seen it before saturday was the 1st leg playoff defeat to Peterhead in May 2006. But Saturday, for me, was much worse.

 

IMHO it is the worst I've ever seen it and I'm surprised there hasn't been more said about it.

 

I totally understand the need for the rugby money, but the need to play the night before we play a game? It's not just the once it's happened either is it?

 

I can only talk for myself, but it does put doubts in my mind about the quality of football that can be played on that surface. I have a season ticket, but if I didn't I would be seriously considering giving a miss to a few games at Firhill between now and the end of the season.

[Ember]

The pitch was absolutely fine until about December.

 

It looks bad, but I'm not convinced for a minute that it's as bad as some people make it out to be, or that it's substantially worse than some of the other pitches in the first division which don't have the extra strain put on them.

 

Attendances are plummeting all round Scottish football. To blame our pitch in isolation doesn't provide the real reason IMO.

100% correct. Anyone who thinks it's the worst ever clearly can't remember the mid-80's when by this point in the season you'd have to shield your eyes from the inevitable sandstorm should the wind pick-up. Whilst not pretty, it's also still no-where near as bad as at the end of the last 2nd Division campaign (e.g. the play-off games).

[JeanieD]

I can remember way back when the pitch was being (ab)used for American football - what a joke that was - basically the grass inhabited the 4 corners and the remaining "diamond" was mud/sand/soil (delete as inappropriate). The sand storm game was a laugh when the opposition goalie had to turn his back on the pitch as a whirlwind of muck swirled all around the penalty area.

[Steven H]

 

perhaps its the fact that lapsed jags always seem to have an excuse of some sort. The pitch is crap, it's too expensive, I don't like the board etc etc why not just admit you can't be arsed to come along week in week out and see the team win lose or draw. It's not great but if we all took the attitude of lapsed fans then there would be no PTFC and for me that is more of a worry than the pitch being crap or it being a little pricey to go!

 

The pitch is pants- we know that - but to suggest we tell the warriors to find somewhere else to play is just pure idiocy imho. We cannot survive without that money and if you think otherwise then you are a fool, and as I said a better pitch is not going to generate your extra 300 fans because their will always be an excuse.

 

And as for an apology from the club for the state of the pitch - What would that achieve? Or would it just make you feel better?

 

Agreed. I remember the pitch in a far worse state than it's in now and that was without rugby being played on it. It's not the best, but to suggest the pitch is a reason not to watch your team is just another in a long line of excuses not to attend. If you dont want to go and watch your team win lose or draw then just come out and say that...or alternatively just say nothing.

 

For me there are 2 reasons fans dont turn up to Firhill in the numbers they once did, 1) they don't want to and 2) they simply cant make it (due to it being too expensive for their budget; due to other commitments at the time of the match; due to your partner telling you 'yer no gawn' ). Everything else is just an excuse IMO. Football on display? Always been mid-first division with occassional forays into the top league and division 2. Don't like the BoD? So, I don't like my boss but I still turn up for work.

 

You either support Partick Thistle or you don't, is that too simplistic?

[jaggybunnet]

Agreed. I remember the pitch in a far worse state than it's in now and that was without rugby being played on it. It's not the best, but to suggest the pitch is a reason not to watch your team is just another in a long line of excuses not to attend. If you dont want to go and watch your team win lose or draw then just come out and say that...or alternatively just say nothing.

 

For me there are 2 reasons fans dont turn up to Firhill in the numbers they once did, 1) they don't want to and 2) they simply cant make it (due to it being too expensive for their budget; due to other commitments at the time of the match; due to your partner telling you 'yer no gawn' ). Everything else is just an excuse IMO. Football on display? Always been mid-first division with occassional forays into the top league and division 2. Don't like the BoD? So, I don't like my boss but I still turn up for work.

 

You either support Partick Thistle or you don't, is that too simplistic?

 

 

no and very true

 

 

and well said little_miss_jag

[Hopeless Unbeliever]

Our board obviously see the income from the rugby as more important to them than getting Thistle fans through the gate via entertaining football.

 

 

 

Or maybe, just maybe, they think that taking the rugby income, being guaranteed, is a teeny, tiny bit more financially prudent than hoping against hope that a slightly improved pitch will turn average players into good ones and in turn bring back lapsed fans who have only given up because the standard of football just isn't good enough. It's not about what income is more important, of course if we were guaranteed to recoup our money from supporters by dropping the rugby and letting the pitch improve we would, but we're not, and it's utterly ridiculous to suggest that it's more 'important,' I honestly can't fathom what you mean with that nonsense.

 

Other than that, your thoughts have been ably answered by lmj.

[potty trained]

So you're suggesting that the club tell the Warriors to take their money and find somewhere else to play? And hope that a much better pitch will generate an extra 300 fans per home game? Great Idea. Wonder why the club have not did that already.

 

Because the Board of Directors couldn't think their way out an unlocked room. They take the quick buck and bugger the outcome, on the basis, the mugs will turn up. Well guess what, the mugs aren't turning up. Because the product is appauling. Why is it so bad, because the players can't play to their best on that pitch.

 

Or perhaps its the fact that lapsed jags always seem to have an excuse of some sort. The pitch is crap, it's too expensive, I don't like the board etc etc why not just admit you can't be arsed to come along week in week out and see the team win lose or draw. It's not great but if we all took the attitude of lapsed fans then there would be no PTFC and for me that is more of a worry than the pitch being crap or it being a little pricey to go!

 

Do you really believe, fans of a football team don't go, just because they "can't be arsed"?

 

We're in a climate where every penny counts, people have families, priorities. When the product isn't on the park, £17 becomes a lot of money.

 

 

The pitch is pants- we know that - but to suggest we tell the warriors to find somewhere else to play is just pure idiocy imho. We cannot survive without that money and if you think otherwise then you are a fool, and as I said a better pitch is not going to generate your extra 300 fans because their will always be an excuse.

 

 

A better pitch will generate more than 300 fans, as it will allow the team to play entertaining football.

 

And as for an apology from the club for the state of the pitch - What would that achieve? Or would it just make you feel better?

 

It would achive a feeling of togetherness, understanding, that the Club know there is a problem and they are addressing it. It's called communication, treating the paying customer with respect.

Edited March 21, 2011 by potty trained

[Tom Hosie]

Gate receipts, including season ticket sales, across the course of a season account for approximately a third of the income that the Club receives.

 

The Club is, therefore, heavily reliant on outside sources of income to even operate at the level that we currently are.

 

Ending the association with the Glasgow Warriors may very well lead to a better standard of playing surface. However, and leaving aside the fact that there are benefits to the Club over and above the rent received from the SRU, that better pitch comes with a hugely significant reduction in revenue.

 

There are so many ‘outside’ factors that can influence a football club’s revenue stream and I’m not sure I would want to take the gamble that a better playing surface will lead to a rise income equal to that which the association with Glasgow Warrior generates.

[potty trained]

Gate receipts, including season ticket sales, across the course of a season account for approximately a third of the income that the Club receives.

 

The Club is, therefore, heavily reliant on outside sources of income to even operate at the level that we currently are.

 

Ending the association with the Glasgow Warriors may very well lead to a better standard of playing surface. However, and leaving aside the fact that there are benefits to the Club over and above the rent received from the SRU, that better pitch comes with a hugely significant reduction in revenue.

 

There are so many ‘outside’ factors that can influence a football club’s revenue stream and I’m not sure I would want to take the gamble that a better playing surface will lead to a rise income equal to that which the association with Glasgow Warrior generates.

 

So, Tam, without the rugby we're goosed?

 

Were we goosed whem Lambie took us up back to back? Were we goosed in the SPL?

 

As stated, it's only 300 fans a game. Or 65 hospitality guests, Or 400 season tickets!

 

What gamble is there? we survived before without them, why are they now a life blood! It's only 100k...

Edited March 21, 2011 by potty trained

[Duck snort]

The combination of severe winters and the rugby has left the pitch in a dreadful state late in the season both years, and it's obvious it's affecting the performance of the team. You've just got to compare the performances of the last 2 weeks. We played some really good stuff on the flat, grassy surface at Kirkcaldy while against Cowdenbeath we could barely string 2 passes together. It's no excuse for the result on Saturday as it was the same for both teams, but the pitch undoubtedly affected the performance.

 

There are a lot of football/rugby ground shares around the UK these days so maybe we should be talking to the other clubs in this situation to find out what they do to lessen the impact of the rugby on the pitch.

[potty trained]

Edited March 21, 2011 by potty trained

[Tom Hosie]

So, Tam, without the rugby we're goosed?

 

Were we goosed whem Lambie took us up back to back? Were we goosed in the SPL?

 

As stated, it's only 300 fans a game. Or 65 hospitality guests, Or 400 season tickets!

 

What gamble is there? we survived before without them, why are they now a life blood! It's only 100k...

 

Can you, or indeed anyone, guarantee that if the Firhill pitch was like a bowling green we would average an extra 300 at every home game?

 

For talking sakes lets just say that the association with the Glasgow Warriors is worth 100K to the Club, I would argue that it is significantly more but we'll say £100,000 just to use a nice easy round figure.

 

The gamble is that you are removing that amount from the Club's revenue stream.

 

The best two pitches I've seen in the last month or two have been Morton's and Raith Rovers'.

 

Morton had 1,800 for a game against the league leaders at the weekend. Those league leaders, Raith Rovers, had less than 1,500 for a recent fixture, a local derby, with Cowdenbeath.

 

Queen of the South had under a 1,000 for a recent game and their playing surface is fine.

 

That doesn't indicate to make that the quality of the playing surface is a significant factor in crowd sizes when evidence suggests a drop in gates across the board. It's certainly not enough, IMO, to take £100,000 out the club's coffers in the hope that it is.

 

That's where the gamble is.

 

I'm not sure that you could ever describe this kind of cash as "only £100,000". I suspect that it is an even more significant figure now given the economic difficulties that Scottish football as a whole faces.

[jaggybunnet]

So, Tam, without the rugby we're goosed?

 

Were we goosed whem Lambie took us up back to back? Were we goosed in the SPL?

 

As stated, it's only 300 fans a game. Or 65 hospitality guests, Or 400 season tickets!

 

What gamble is there? we survived before without them, why are they now a life blood! It's only 100k...

 

 

so why at the start of the season when the pitch was great was the football not great then???

 

because thats not how it works

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I wonder if an SPL2 scenario could result in us being fined and/or made to re-turf excessively?

As said before I too doubt whether the state of the pitch is the single reason why any real Jags fan would stay away. I would tho' concede that it could be one of a handful of reasons why some fans don't attend. Obviously the Warriors rental is of paramount importance to us but sadly there has to be a debit side. I suppose in theory we could lose out on incremental football revenue, things like Junior Cup finals, Under 21 internationals etc. I'm not that sure that we'd have to play reserve games and the players train away from Firhill if the pitch was a bit more robust. Could we lose out on a Cup TV game? I'd imagine Sky or whoever would/may only opt for another match if it was of equal attraction as a fixture.

To repeat I feel there's bound to be a financial downside due to the state of the pitch but the cash from the Warriors deal will be massive in comparison.

Edited March 21, 2011 by lady-isobel-barnett

[Pie Of The Month]

So, Tam, without the rugby we're goosed?

 

Were we goosed whem Lambie took us up back to back? Were we goosed in the SPL?

 

As stated, it's only 300 fans a game. Or 65 hospitality guests, Or 400 season tickets!

 

What gamble is there? we survived before without them, why are they now a life blood! It's only 100k...

 

Only £100k? If it's as simple as 300 extra fans turning up when the pitch is in a decent condition then what's the excuse before the winter weather kicks in? The difference in the crowds of the 2 Cowdenbeath home fixtures was 87 people. It's safe to assume the pitch is hardly keeping away the crowds in their droves.

[potty trained]

Can you, or indeed anyone, guarantee that if the Firhill pitch was like a bowling green we would average an extra 300 at every home game?

 

For talking sakes lets just say that the association with the Glasgow Warriors is worth 100K to the Club, I would argue that it is significantly more but we'll say £100,000 just to use a nice easy round figure.

 

The gamble is that you are removing that amount from the Club's revenue stream.

 

The best two pitches I've seen in the last month or two have been Morton's and Raith Rovers'.

 

Morton had 1,800 for a game against the league leaders at the weekend. Those league leaders, Raith Rovers, had less than 1,500 for a recent fixture, a local derby, with Cowdenbeath.

 

Queen of the South had under a 1,000 for a recent game and their playing surface is fine.

 

That doesn't indicate to make that the quality of the playing surface is a significant factor in crowd sizes when evidence suggests a drop in gates across the board. It's certainly not enough, IMO, to take £100,000 out the club's coffers in the hope that it is.

 

That's where the gamble is.

 

I'm not sure that you could ever describe this kind of cash as "only £100,000". I suspect that it is an even more significant figure now given the economic difficulties that Scottish football as a whole faces.

 

Appreciate your opinion, Tam, thanks.

 

It's good to read a member of staff on this thread not being hysterical, or being condescending to the paying customers.

[potty trained]

Only £100k? If it's as simple as 300 extra fans turning up when the pitch is in a decent condition then what's the excuse before the winter weather kicks in? The difference in the crowds of the 2 Cowdenbeath home fixtures was 87 people. It's safe to assume the pitch is hardly keeping away the crowds in their droves.

 

I would suggest the pitch has an effect on the players ability to play entertaining football... that has removed at least 300 fans off the gate. But, we're only sharing opionion, not fact.

[Pie Of The Month]

I would suggest the pitch has an effect on the players ability to play entertaining football... that has removed at least 300 fans off the gate. But, we're only sharing opionion, not fact.

 

If that was the case then other clubs with much better pitches than us wouldn't be seeing smaller crowds in recent months. The league leaders have been getting around 2000 for matches not against their Fife neighbours, Morton are 200 down on last season's average, Queens nearly 600 down. What's their excuse? Are all the pitches terrible?

[potty trained]

If that was the case then other clubs with much better pitches than us wouldn't be seeing smaller crowds in recent months. The league leaders have been getting around 2000 for matches not against their Fife neighbours, Morton are 200 down on last season's average, Queens nearly 600 down. What's their excuse? Are all the pitches terrible?

 

Don't know, don't care. All i know is, the firhill pitch is not condusive to entertaining football. And as such, that will result in fans not turning up.